God is eternal

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But, see this is where I disagree. What happens if God already knew and even put on the heart of believers to pray for something, so He could change what would have otherwise been? So, we don't know what would have been the future had God not intervened on behalf of those praying.
But, God can still already know what IS going to happen just like He knew what would have happened, if He didn't intervene.

You are missing the point, there are some things that are unchangeable--God told us what the end is going to look like in many places. No amount of believer praying is going to change the Scriptures. But, for individuals, there is certainly a lot of variation that could play out without it impeding the overall outcome that God told us will happen.

We aren't locked into an unchangeable script as individuals. Just because God knows what choices we will make or what will happen, doesn't mean we can't impact that script on an individual level. And, what if someone's decision not to pray and sit on the couch is actually the reason their end looks like it does, where the one who diligently sought God has moved God on their or someone else's behalf.

God's plans and purposes will be fulfilled regardless of the various choices that people will make. After all, He is not locked into a specific time-frame for it to happen. He has the rest of eternity to do what He wants to do, so if the culmination of events takes a lot longer than originally planned, who care? God has plenty of time, and He has not set a definite time for the return of Jesus, regardless of the shonky prophecies that are rolled out from time to time.

But there have been strict time-frames that God did set, like the set time for the captivity of Israel and the return to the promised land under Ezra and Nehemiah. That was a time when God decided it was going to happen within a certain amount of time and He made sure it happened that way. So God can manipulate people and events to ensure that His plans are fulfilled.

His prophecy about the different empires that would arise, that describe them up to the Roman Empire, did come to pass because God made sure that they happened that way. Then He made sure that there was the long time of peace called the "Pax Romana" that enabled the birth of Jesus, his growth to adulthood, His ministry, death and resurrection, and the enablement for the gospel to be spread right around the world. He even caused good roads to be built around the Roman Empire to enable quick and effortless travel for the Apostles to spread the gospel.

When we study church history, we can see the working of God in it, and see that the Reformation happened at exactly the right time and in the right place, though the political situation in Germany that enabled Luther to be protected so that the foundations of the Reformation could be set in bronze.

We see the working of God all throughout church history. I read a very interesting book about the miracles that enabled Britain and America to win the second world war, and God manipulating Hitler to make a serious of stupid decisions that serious disadvantaged him and the German war effort. It showed that God won the war for Britain and America more than anyone else.

We also see God's intervention in the formation of the state of Israel, and how He put a fright into the Egyptian army which caused their utter defeat in the Sinai desert. We don't see a lot of that in the news media, but there are many testimonies describing God's intervention.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Although there is nothing to convince me that the actual future is knowable because it does not exist yet, we have no conception of the extent of God's knowledge, awareness of the infinite possibilities, knowledge of trends, and the nature of people, and His ability to predict future possible decision based on current ones. Also, we have little idea of His ability to plan, foresee, and implement what He has planned and purposed in spite of the free will of people. So, with all that in mind, it is easy for many to believe that God really does know every detail of the future.

So human actions are fully determined by the environment? If one knows the laws of physics and every position and velocity of every particle, then you could just predict with 100% accuracy the future actions of people?

I think a possibility that I've never seen really worked out our thought about is that since (a) God is "outside" or "beyond" time, and (b) God is omnipresent, then (c) God is present and observing every point in time. Not that this does any favors to my Calvinist views, but...

 

[BobRyan]

How does that look like? Can we know?

He is unchanging. I believe God knows the eternal future as well. And some how allowed and gave us free will.

Are these things too complex to grasp?

What is the human's scope of understanding?

yep that is the point ---> it is "hard to BE God"

The disciples ask Christ in Acts 1 a very simple question "is it that time you will restore the kingdom?" -- and Jesus said "not for you to know"...

Bottom line - "it is hard to BE God"

Satan himself fell from heaven after one of those "not for you to know" discussions.

 

[Blade]

Really? Hes always been.. HELLO I am stuck He KNOWS ALL yet He asks Adam "where are you, who said you were naked, did you eat of the tree I told you not to".. Knows all yet.. treats you as if HE does not...AWESOME...then out side of TIME... Hes the last and the 1st.. Oh like all of you I can keep going and ..its as if I LOVE to get lost in this

I TAKE IT with a grain of salt.. some man died he had questions.. the man say.. God told me "when you finely come home... we will sit together and I will answer EVER question you have ever had...a grain of salt but.. I LOVE that..I believe it.... would mean nothing to us here.. so much we would never understand ...anyway..

 

[BobRyan]

So human actions are fully determined by the environment? If one knows the laws of physics and every position and velocity of every particle, then you could just predict with 100% accuracy the future actions of people?

Yeah that seems highly unlikely.

Given a snapshot of an object in the sky you cannot predict where it will be 10 minutes later without knowing its momentum and even then - if it is under powered flight and can steer - then all bets are off for where it is 10 minutes later.

 

[salt-n-light]

How does that look like? Can we know?

He is unchanging. I believe God knows the eternal future as well. And some how allowed and gave us free will.

Are these things too complex to grasp?

What is the human's scope of understanding?

The complexities itself would be too large to comprehend. I can’t explain why someone dies just as much as I can’t explain why I’m still alive. I can’t explain why I’m a woman anymore why others are men.But God who orchestrates it all would know why things go the way it go.

But in terms of the end goal, that is easily accessible to us through His Word. His will is to give us an expected end for His children, eternal life with Him. He ask for us to trust us, and that He does keep His promises. So we utilize the free will we have alive by operating in faith and deed.