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God goofs again!

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ebia

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Lion of God said:
You have personal experience with this type of medicine that puts you into a position to judge the worthiness of my opinion?
Indirectly. My other half is an experienced Psychiatric Nurse.

But I'm not the one making outrageous unsubstantiated claims against expert and professional opinion.

God is glorified with medicine that turns people into addicted basket cases who are even more prone to suicidal behaviour than they are without it?
Yet more unsubstantiated claims. All noise and no substance.

God is glorified by drugs which keeps one from repentance and true healing for what ails them?
God is glorified by healing. That healing does not keep one from repentance or the spiritual healing that only God can bring.
 
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azzy

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oldwiseguy said:
I have recently been made aware, by scientists, that not only is the story of Noah's flood an allegory but there are serious flaws in that allegory.

It seems that the allegorical animals will not fit into the allegorical ark, and , that the allegorical ark cannot survive the allegorical flood.

Just wanted to pass that information on so you literalists can adjust your beliefs accordingly. :)

Hi friend.Im wondering when you are going to post a post declaring in your great wisdom,that allah goofed again.

Or perhaps a post declaring that buda,or(take your pick of any god or goddess)has goofed again.
 
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LoG

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Raistlinorr

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ebia said:
Why put it in a cast then - God could heal it instantly without? Don't you trust him to line the bones up properly or something? He's not really an old man with a long white beard and failing eyesight you know

Or he could heal it through normal channels using trained medics acting in his service (whether they know it or not).


Not that it matters but it seems many keep asking the answer to a question I already answed.

But once again just to make it clear. The reason for the cast is most likely my initial lack of faith. Seem I can admit my faith is weak when it comes to moving mountians and setting a freshly broke arm. I know our Father can heal it I don't realy have to second guess it. But as earlier I was ask if I though pray could move mountains and heal my responce was yes. Once again this whole debate to me whether it be about TE vs YEC or healing vs not healing is about faith.

To the poster prior who said he does not like to temp God it's not tempting when we are told to ask and we shall recieve. I don't ask to have greatness in this world I could rather careless for the trappings that go on here. I ask to neither be rich nor poor only that my needs are met, and they are. I'm far off from having it nice by mans standards but who cares I'm working on a better richness one of faith. Thats not some thing that one has a certain way the whole time after we become Christian we must work and tend our faith to help it grow and stay strong.

But regardless of how many times I say this or how clearly it seems to be my answer will never fully satisfy. You will continue to ask that which has already been answered. This is why I left this debate to begin with, you ask the same question repeatedly instead of looking at the answer supplied. You may not like my answer but it's the one your going to get, either accept my answer and move on with the next question or what ever you choose to do.

As I said before. I used to believe in evolution in fact I was more TE than anything else up until the begining of this year. I choose to ignore mans wisdom for that of our Father who tells me He created not He allowed to come about.

This again is my answer.
God bless!
Raist
 
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Willtor

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Raistlinorr said:
Not that it matters but it seems many keep asking the answer to a question I already answed.

But once again just to make it clear. The reason for the cast is most likely my initial lack of faith. Seem I can admit my faith is weak when it comes to moving mountians and setting a freshly broke arm. I know our Father can heal it I don't realy have to second guess it. But as earlier I was ask if I though pray could move mountains and heal my responce was yes. Once again this whole debate to me whether it be about TE vs YEC or healing vs not healing is about faith.

To the poster prior who said he does not like to temp God it's not tempting when we are told to ask and we shall recieve. I don't ask to have greatness in this world I could rather careless for the trappings that go on here. I ask to neither be rich nor poor only that my needs are met, and they are. I'm far off from having it nice by mans standards but who cares I'm working on a better richness one of faith. Thats not some thing that one has a certain way the whole time after we become Christian we must work and tend our faith to help it grow and stay strong.

But regardless of how many times I say this or how clearly it seems to be my answer will never fully satisfy. You will continue to ask that which has already been answered. This is why I left this debate to begin with, you ask the same question repeatedly instead of looking at the answer supplied. You may not like my answer but it's the one your going to get, either accept my answer and move on with the next question or what ever you choose to do.

As I said before. I used to believe in evolution in fact I was more TE than anything else up until the begining of this year. I choose to ignore mans wisdom for that of our Father who tells me He created not He allowed to come about.

This again is my answer.
God bless!
Raist

I have to dispute your notion of faith. I think it is a weakness of theology that has allowed this sort of superstitious faith to be promoted in the Church. Faith is never without an object. Christian faith is faith in God, as He is, in Himself. It is not belief. It is belief in. It is a trust and a knowledge of God, God's will, and God's command. If it is God's will to heal you in an instant, and you believe Him, then you will be healed. If it is not His will, it doesn't matter how much belief you have that it will be so, but it will not be. In the case that you believe this thing that is outside of the will of God, it is actually not faith in God, but faith in your perception of God. In short, it is faith in something other than God.
 
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gluadys

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Raistlinorr said:
Once again this whole debate to me whether it be about TE vs YEC or healing vs not healing is about faith.

I disagree. It is not about faith at all. Do any of us suggest that God cannot heal miraculously? No. Do any of us disagree that in over 99.99% of cases God does not heal miraculously? No.

Does it take more faith to believe God can heal miraculously that to believe God heals through natural means? No.

Clearly, since miraculous healings are rare, it is God's intention that we rely in the first instance, on natural means of healing. Why else did God create herbs that heal? Why else did God allow for humans to acquire the knowledge to set bones and remove decaying teeth or ailing appendices?

IMHO the erroneous assumption being made is that it does not require faith to believe God is healing when natural means are being used. But we know that the effectiveness of medications is affected by faith. That is the message of the placebo effect. If you believe a medication will help, it will help, and it will help more effectively than the same medication used where there is no faith in it.

Faith in God's healing through natural medications or through a physician's skill is just as much faith as faith in miracles.


To the poster prior who said he does not like to temp God it's not tempting when we are told to ask and we shall recieve.

Again, I disagree. It is not tempting God to believe in general that God can heal miraculously, and that sometimes God will heal miraculously. But it is tempting God to insist that God will heal ME miraculously, especially when God has provided other ways to be healed of a broken bone.

This is rather like the anecdote of the fellow who asked God to rescue him from a flood. He turned away a canoe, a motorboat and a helicopter on the grounds that God would rescue him. And when he was drowned and found himself in heaven, he asked God why he hadn't been rescued, God told him "I sent you a canoe, and a motorboat and an helicopter. What more did you expect?"

It is not for us to choose how God will heal in specific instances. If you have access to a physician capable of setting the broken bone in a cast, it is presumptuous to ask for a miracle instead. Just because God can work miracles doesn't mean he will postively answer your demand that he will.


As I said before. I used to believe in evolution

And that was your first mistake. Evolution is not a religion to be believed in. It is science. You get to know it through observation and study. I have learned that anyone who claims they believed in evolution probably never studied it to the point of understanding it.

I choose to ignore mans wisdom for that of our Father who tells me He created not He allowed to come about.

You are not choosing to ignore man's wisdom. You are choosing to ignore God's creation and what we have learned about creation.

Knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing. A person can have solid knowledge about the world and yet have little wisdom (and vice versa). Scripture does not tell us to turn our back on knowledge, but on what passes in the world for wisdom.

For example, according to the wisdom of the world, it is right to look out for #1, to hoard wealth, to grab for power, to resort to war and not care who you trample over as long as you get what you want. And some people who accept evolution do this. And some people who reject evolution do this. Some people who call themselves Christian do this.

But those who are truly Christian know that this is not what Jesus taught us, and that the way of Christ is true wisdom though it seems foolish to the world.

This wisdom is a different thing than scientific knowledge and does not require rejecting scientific knowledge--or any knowledge.
 
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Raistlinorr

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But those who are truly Christian know that this is not what Jesus taught us, and that the way of Christ is true wisdom though it seems foolish to the world.


Wow now not only am I ignorant but I'm not Christian, I put faith in the wrong things, and I have no understanding what so ever of evolution.


Or is it maybe a misuse or misunderstanding of each others words? Seems I'm not the only one ignorant in that case. I might have used some wording wrong or some one might have taken it the wrong way.

Guess I don't belong in this thread any more after all.

God bless!
Raist
 
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LoG

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The Father's Will is:

Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Exo 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Mat 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


The Bible is very plain in what it is that God wills for us. We stand on the promises of God for therein lies our salvation, whether in body or spirit.
 
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ebia

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Lion of God said:
Why don't you learn how to use google?
If you make a claim it's up to you to support it.

Of articles that are part of the process of the medical sciences determining the risk associated with particular drugs; all medical treatments have risks and for mental health (as one of the youngest fields of medical science) the uncertaintly is highter. These articles do not support your broad allergations.

To make an informed opinion you need an understanding of the topic, not an uninformed opinion and a quick google search.
 
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ebia

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Lion of God said:
The Father's Will is:

Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Exo 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Mat 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


The Bible is very plain in what it is that God wills for us. We stand on the promises of God for therein lies our salvation, whether in body or spirit.
And your point is?
 
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LoG

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ebia said:
Of articles that are part of the process of the medical sciences determining the risk associated with particular drugs; all medical treatments have risks and for mental health (as one of the youngest fields of medical science) the uncertaintly is highter. These articles do not support your broad allergations.

Are you for real ebia? Are you on high dosage meds that you can't see reality?

[SIZE=+1]68 Times Greater Suicide Risk With Serotonergic Meds![/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]New research presented at a recent NIH sponsored meeting demonstrates a 68 times greater risk of suicide with the new serotonergic antidepressants and antipsychotics than if a patient never took anything.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]These shocking figures of increased risk shows that a patient's chances of suicide jump from 11 out of 100,000 to as much as 718 out of 100,000 if one is taking one of these new SSRI antidepressants (Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox, Celexa) - medications touted to alleviate depressive symptoms and rid one of suicidal tendencies. And the risk is even higher for the new serotonergic antipsychotics (Zyprexa, Risperal, Seroquel) - 752 out of 100,000.[/SIZE]
That doesn't support my allegations? Get a grip bud. You're losing it.
 
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ebia

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Lion of God said:
Are you for real ebia? Are you on high dosage meds that you can't see reality?

That doesn't support my allegations? Get a grip bud. You're losing it.
First of all this is an opinion piece, not a scientific article, originating from a biased source - the precise context of the 68% is not given. The emotive langaguage is a give away.

Secondly your claim is a broad one - that mental health is based on handing out drugs that cause more harm than good. The fact that you can find research happening into the risks is evidence that the profession is actually based upon minimizing risk. Some risk is always present in any treatment; asprin is very dangerous.
 
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gluadys said:
God has never depended on a book to communicate. God has always used people as communicators. Some of those people are preachers and teachers who help the unlearned understand difficult writings
. yes but i dont see y0ur point. and he did use a book to have it passed down so maybe it would NOT turn into a myth.




And the forms most used in that day were those most easily passed on through oral tradition: stories and poetry.
yes but they were written down. whether it is when the story was first told or not doesnt matter because GOD knows the TRUE story the WHOLE truth of the story and can have the SPirit tell this WHOLE truth to the one writting it down.




So who, besides yourself, is saying it is not truth? Every literary vehicle can speak truth.
no it cant. it can speak SOME truth or even the whole truth. but not ALL do. and a myth is one that does NOT speak the WHOLE turth of the event that happened that is written down or orally told. A myth is truth with untruth in it. God does not speak this way




We don't have to determine which is truth and which is not. Everything the Spirit inspires is truth. The Spirit can speak truth through myth.
no he can not. IF he is ALL truth and cant speak a lie then it is ALL truth no matter what litterary form he uses. maybe i should say the truth being spoke is a factual accurate event that did happen as it is told by the writer.

We don't even have to determine which is myth and which is not. A great story can speak truth even if the reader is ignorant of literary labels. But knowing that a story is told in mythological form is an aide to a deeper understanding.
we sure do. if i think Christ life was a myth. then how can his saving grace come to me. It would merrely be a story to help me in life to be a better citizen. as in no afterlife.





So, do you believe the writers were not really writers? That they simply took dictation? Scripture itself contradicts this view.
they were writers but what they wrote is not what they wanted to write but what GOD told them or lead them to Write. So yes they in a way took dictation. the fact they wrote in a certain way according to how they wrote then is besides the point. it would not interfer or make them write a untruth or a extra part that is fabricated or exxagerated or whatever just because that is the way they orally made it. Goid is above this.





Whether the transmission of the story is oral or written, it is still God's story. So of course it is true. God doesn't need to "get beyond" anything to make it true. The point is that we tend to overvalue stuff in books, and forget that most people, in most places, in most times did not communicate through the written word. Because we have books, we tend not to discipline our memory to recall what we or others have written. So we tend not to understand what memory is capable of.
Again thuis is besides the point. it WAS written down so we go from there. doesnt matter how long it was orally past down.





And since we know that there never was a global flood, we know this is part of the story, not part of history.
Part of what story and part of what history. which part is which. you cant seem to tell me this. Is GOd and his plan and all of the way he worked a story, a myth. just to help us live better. a creation of some one. and is history JUST what we find in scientific evidence or even archeology.




The faith is in the trustworthiness of God's testimony in creation. All scientific truth comes from God, just as all scriptural truth comes from God. One cannot be truer than the other.
why not. one is GOds word the other is mans understanding or interpretations of what we NEVER saw happen. if you say mans interpretations are as true as Gods then how easy are you going to be mislead. seeing what the scripture says of man and how he thinks





I am not the one who is saying a literary form must be a form of lie. I quite agree that God cannot lie, and it makes no difference what literary form is used. God speaks truth in all of them.
yet you say it is a myth when it doesnt make it suggest it is. The deffinition i read says it is not complete truth, but partly truth partly lies(exaggerations or add ons which is the same thing). Do you say God let the writters do it this way JUST because that is how they used to do it.




Typical creationist remark. Just because you haven't checked out and understood a conclusion, you call it an assumption. Please learn the difference between these terms.
A assumption is guessing what it was in the past when we TRUELLY cant honestly say one way or another, no matter how much evidence might suggest it. I can assume my mom is a christian and will go to heaven but i honestly can not say for fact that is true because God only knows.




I can't tell you which part of scripture is true and which is not because it is ALL true. If God chooses to give you the truth in the form of a myth, are you going to call God a liar?
YES because a myth is not the whole truth and unless he says it is a story to make a point in life such as a parrable, or annology, ect. or unless he tells me which is true fact and which is the moral part by way of a untrue or made up story.





I am not the one who is saying it is not accurate. You are.
no you are because you say it is a myth not me. i say God cant lie by speaking of the history of man in a myth form. why would all the major peoples have a flood story all written in a different form and it not be a true story of what happened. it is true and only ONE is the actual true factual correct story of the event.





Right. Faith takes us beyond what we can prove, beyond evidence we can see. But faith does not consist of looking at what we do see and pretending it is not there. That is what the rejection of science is.
i do not reject science. i reject that it will answer all the answers of how God works or did work. It would take only One error of interpretation in science to get a lot of errors down the line. And to think the devil could not make science or those studing it come up with a wrong interpretation like he cant muddle this field, as if it is impenitrable by satan, so as all of it is uncorruptible.






Because myth = a kind of story. Sometimes in common speech we use the word to refer to something that is not true. But not when we use it of the bible. Or of many other ancient stories. Then we are talking about what kind of literature it is. Not whether it is true or false.
again how does this matter. the scriptures are HOLY not man made.

Every kind of literature can be used to teach truth or to spread falsehood. But when it comes from those inspired by the Holy Spirit, I, for one, believe it is true, God's truth.
NOt all of it, you said so yourself. if it deals with something science can determine or try to interpret you believe science over scripture. Or you will make the scriptures fit with the scientific results.







It is all truth--including the myths. So we don't have to decide what is and isn't true. We just need to learn it and obey it and treasure it.
MYTHS are NOT all TRUTH. it is a mike of false history and true history. There may be a "truth" to it BUT it is not a factual account of history and what really happened. This is why i ask you to tell me which part of the story of the flood is true and which is not. But i think you have. you say it was local not global. So i think it is just a matter of interpretation of the scriptures and what we think the signifacants is of it.




Why would you expect a trade-mark in the story? I said that identifying literary genres correctly comes through the study of literature.
This should not matter with scripture or holy scriptures i would think htose would be read in a different light then all other books. otherwise why would not the other religouse books all myths be just as correct and true as the bible.








A good point. So if YOU have a misconception---how is it helping you?
this idea of a myth being complete truth. i should say i would sayy a myth can give us a "truth" but NOT the complete accurate fact of the event it is speaking of. I believe the flood story being global is a factual accurate acount of the event. you think it is a myth account of a local flood to show a message God wants to express to us.
 
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Willtor

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Schroeder said:
. yes but i dont see y0ur point. and he did use a book to have it passed down so maybe it would NOT turn into a myth.

. . .

Let me emphasize that nothing turned into anything else. If it is a myth, it was never intended otherwise. That's the whole issue. Now, our society uses the word, myth, ambiguously. We throw it around to represent both myth (as from ancient times) and falsehood. "The people of Christopher Columbus' time thought that the Earth was flat." That is a myth by the common usage of the word. It is a myth because it's not true. Greek mythology (as an example) is something quite different. We say it's not true, not because it's not factual, but because it doesn't give us good information about our relationship to God (or, the gods, in this case).

Myth, by the technical usage of the word (which is being used by some of the people in this thread), is a literary device used by almost every ancient society. It is not like claiming that medieval people thought that the world was flat. It would help if we had two different words, but we don't. Thus, it must be understood that some of us are trying to apply technical semantics to our use of the word, myth.
 
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Dannager

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Lion of God said:
Are you on high dosage meds that you can't see reality?
EDIT: By the way, this was uncalled for. I suggest apologizing - an apology that will be doubly necessary should your source be shown to be invalid.
That doesn't support my allegations? Get a grip bud. You're losing it.
You'll need to provide a source on that quote that you claim supports your allegations. Furthermore, it doesn't appear to be from a scientific (or even reputable news) source. I know of very few respected reporting services that use exclamation marks in headlines. Where did you get that snippet from? If it's not a scientific source, we have no way of being assured that it's not simply being dishonestly twisted by whatever biased source you're quoting from.
 
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ebia

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Schroeder said:
. yes but i dont see y0ur point. and he did use a book to have it passed down so maybe it would NOT turn into a myth.
:confused: It always was a myth.

yes but they were written down. whether it is when the story was first told or not doesnt matter because GOD knows the TRUE story the WHOLE truth of the story and can have the SPirit tell this WHOLE truth to the one writting it down.
That's not the point. The point is we preserve important information by writing it down on imposing pieces of paper. Ancient societies (and modern oral societies) - including the Hebrews, preserved their important information by imbedding it in stories. The story is a vehicle to preserve the information it contains. What you are trying to do is restrict God to working in the way we work (factually with written texts) and refusing to allow him to work in the way of the culture he originally gave the message to.


A myth is truth with untruth in it.
This is simply untrue.

no he can not. IF he is ALL truth and cant speak a lie then it is ALL truth no matter what litterary form he uses. maybe i should say the truth being spoke is a factual accurate event that did happen as it is told by the writer.
The writer isn't telling a factual event. It's hardly the writer's fault if some people a few thousand years later decide to read it as though he was.

we sure do. if i think Christ life was a myth. then how can his saving grace come to me. It would merrely be a story to help me in life to be a better citizen. as in no afterlife.
Is anyone here claiming Christ's life was a myth?

they were writers but what they wrote is not what they wanted to write but what GOD told them or lead them to Write. So yes they in a way took dictation.
That is not the historic understanding of biblical inspiration.

Again thuis is besides the point. it WAS written down so we go from there. doesnt matter how long it was orally past down.
Why do you think God should work in the manner of the culture you happen to be born into?


why not. one is GOds word the other is mans understanding or interpretations of what we NEVER saw happen.
More correctly:
One is our interpretation of God's word transmitted through the bible, the other is our interpretation of God's word transmitted through His Creation. Both are from God, both are true, and both need interpreting. Pretending that you aren't intepreting the bible is a non-starter.

yet you say it is a myth when it doesnt make it suggest it is. The deffinition i read says it is not complete truth, but partly truth partly lies(exaggerations or add ons which is the same thing).
Then the definition you are reading is wrong.

Do you say God let the writters do it this way JUST because that is how they used to do it.
Why do you write stuff on bits of paper - to preserve the messages. That's why oral cultures write their truths into stories - to preserve them. Stories are an increadably good way of preserving information and teaching it - far better at the latter than facts on bits of paper.

A assumption is guessing what it was in the past when we TRUELLY cant honestly say one way or another, no matter how much evidence might suggest it. I can assume my mom is a christian and will go to heaven but i honestly can not say for fact that is true because God only knows.
When the evidence points overwhelmingly in one direction then to call that an assumption and try to imply that the opposite view is equally reasonable is absurd.


YES because a myth is not the whole truth and unless he says it is a story to make a point in life such as a parrable, or annology, ect. or unless he tells me which is true fact and which is the moral part by way of a untrue or made up story.
The idea that there is a default form of writing that is factual is a product of your particular culture.


no you are because you say it is a myth not me. i say God cant lie by speaking of the history of man in a myth form.
A myth is not a lie. You can claim it is as often as you like, but that does not make it so.

why would all the major peoples have a flood story all written in a different form and it not be a true story of what happened.
Big floods are not that uncommon and make a big impact on people so they get woven into stories.

i do not reject science. i reject that it will answer all the answers of how God works or did work.
No-one claims it will

It would take only One error of interpretation in science to get a lot of errors down the line.
This is a common misconception, but it's untrue - science is self checking.


And to think the devil could not make science or those studing it come up with a wrong interpretation like he cant muddle this field, as if it is impenitrable by satan, so as all of it is uncorruptible.
You can apply that argument to one's understanding of anything - bible included. So it gets one nowhere.

again how does this matter. the scriptures are HOLY not man made.
But they still use a wide variety of human types of literature.

MYTHS are NOT all TRUTH. it is a mike of false history and true history. There may be a "truth" to it BUT it is not a factual account of history and what really happened.
It's not meant to be a factual account of history and what really happened. Just because you mistake it for such doesn't make it so.
 
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