God goofs again!

[ebia]

I just wonder why you are so loathe to praise God for providing medicines and medical knowledge. Sounds rather ungrateful to me.

Presumably he doesn't praise God for providing the food on his plate or the roof over his head either - after all, they are all man-made and God is only responsible for things that happen miraculously.

 

[LoG]

and that's more semantics. You are just using redefinition to make your case. From this perspective a person suffers only one headache all their life long. It's the same one coming and going.

The headache is the symptom of the actual problem so therefore it is in effect the same one coming and going.

Now the bible describes the research and development of new medicines? Please point out the outline.

Not medicines, but healing.

You have data to this effect?

The Lord's healing is complete, quick and free with no side effects

So Luke was a snake oil salesman?

Could be. Maybe he repented and became a writer of the real healing that comes from God.

Remember, the reason quacks can get away with their shenanigans is because they are imitating the real thing. If there were no actual cures, there would be no market for fake ones.

Don't you mean that if there were actual cures there wouldn't be a market for fake ones? That makes more sense.

I just wonder why you are so loathe to praise God for providing medicines and medical knowledge. Sounds rather ungrateful to me.

To hear you, I should be praising God for making me sick so that I can then be used as a lab rat for the chemical concoctions that the pharmaceutical companies come up with.

 

[LoG]

Translation: "I can't substantiate my claim so I'll chuck in a bit of conspiracy theory".

Translation: "I am not willing to see past my own self-delusions to see the truth and will therefore criticize and minimize anyone else's perspectives if they are basing it on anything in the bible rather than "science"."

 

[The Lady Kate]

The headache is the symptom of the actual problem so therefore it is in effect the same one coming and going.

So you agree. Now, what in your opinion is the actual problem?

Not medicines, but healing.



The Lord's healing is complete, quick and free with no side effects

As is any other miracle the Lord performs... but isn't He more in the habit of performing miracles when and how He sees fit, and not how any of us might?

Could be. Maybe he repented and became a writer instead of the real healing that comes from God.

And maybe after writing, he opened a flower shop. What's the point?

Don't you mean that if there were actual cures there wouldn't be a market for fake ones? That makes more sense.

I think gluadys had it right the first time. Who's going to fall for an imitation of something that doesn't exist in the first place?

To hear you, I should be praising God for making me sick so that I can then be used as a lab rat for the chemical concoctions that the pharmaceutical companies come up with.

Well, if true healing only comes from God, then where does the sickness come from in the first place?

 

[Willtor]

Translation: "I am not willing to see past my own self-delusions to see the truth and will therefore criticize and minimize anyone else's perspectives if they are basing it on anything in the bible rather than "science"."

You know that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Barth, etc. all defended science/philosophy of nature, right?

 

[gluadys]

Don't you mean that if there were actual cures there wouldn't be a market for fake ones? That makes more sense.

No. If there were no actual cures, people would not be fooled by fake ones. It is because there are actual cures that there can also be fake ones. You can't fake something that doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[LoG]

You know that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, Barth, etc. all defended science/philosophy of nature, right?

What they believed was their perogative. At least two of those names have writings that I disagree with on other topics so it means little to me. Just from a quick look on Wikipedia on the definition of Natural Theology, I'd have to say I disagree with it because I believe it requires supernatural revelation to appreciate how the natural points to God.
That at least was my experience.

 

[Willtor]

What they believed was their perogative. At least two of those names have writings that I disagree with on other topics so it means little to me. Just from a quick look on Wikipedia on the definition of Natural Theology, I'd have to say I disagree with it because I believe it requires supernatural revelation to appreciate how the natural points to God.
That at least was my experience.

Barth shares your views of natural theology. However, his views on science are another matter altogether.

That said, isn't it strange that some of the greatest theologians of all time disagree with you on such an important issue? I don't mention others, because I haven't read enough. But my guess is that it's generally the same. To be sure, none of them share your views of medicine.

 

[LoG]

Barth shares your views of natural theology. However, his views on science are another matter altogether.

That said, isn't it strange that some of the greatest theologians of all time disagree with you on such an important issue? I don't mention others, because I haven't read enough. But my guess is that it's generally the same. To be sure, none of them share your views of medicine.

Science in certain diciplines has changed substantially over the last few hundred years. It no longer goes where the evidence leads but is based on an agenda. Certain fields are attempting to prove what they want it to prove. That wasn't the mindset of scientists back in their day.
Medicine wasn't tied to big business back then either. In fact if a doctor had too many patients die on him, chances were good, he would be sharing their fate quite quickly. Today it is about how much money is being made rather than how many people are being cured, at least that is the case with western medicine. The accountants are very hesitant to pull a drug off the market even when it has been proven to be detrimental. In my years on this earth I have seen that happen quite often.

The science and medical fields are made up of fallible human beings. To believe everything that comes from their interpretations and theories is to put them in the place of God. When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct. So in my opinion not all medicine comes from God. The medicines that do come from Him are those that are safe without side effects. That is His nature so they are the only ones that would qualify as being from Him. Even then they are for those who aren't strong enough as yet to access the better healing through Faith. We are a society that is based on instant results so the patience to wait on God is sometimes lacking.

Having said all that, I do admit that much of Christianity is lacking in faith to access the healing that is available through it. Too often they rely on "wishfull thinking" rather than real faith. Real faith comes from a clear consciounce attained by doing this to the best of one's ability:


* Personal accountability
* Confession of sin, repentance and restitution, and
* Godly living.

(Too often we stop at just having faith that we are saved and not looking further at what it is God would have us do.)

Then by standing on the promises that God makes throughout the bible, healing through faith becomes a reality as do other gifts of the Spirit.
This is something I've experienced in my own life.

 

[Willtor]

Science in certain diciplines has changed substantially over the last few hundred years. It no longer goes where the evidence leads but is based on an agenda. Certain fields are attempting to prove what they want it to prove. That wasn't the mindset of scientists back in their day.
Medicine wasn't tied to big business back then either. In fact if a doctor had too many patients die on him, chances were good, he would be sharing their fate quite quickly. Today it is about how much money is being made rather than how many people are being cured, at least that is the case with western medicine. The accountants are very hesitant to pull a drug off the market even when it has been proven to be detrimental. In my years on this earth I have seen that happen quite often.

The science and medical fields are made up of fallible human beings. To believe everything that comes from their interpretations and theories is to put them in the place of God. When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct. So in my opinion not all medicine comes from God. The medicines that do come from Him are those that are safe without side effects. That is His nature so they are the only ones that would qualify as being from Him. Even then they are for those who aren't strong enough as yet to access the better healing through Faith. We are a society that is based on instant results so the patience to wait on God is sometimes lacking.

Having said all that, I do admit that much of Christianity is lacking in faith to access the healing that is available through it. Too often they rely on "wishfull thinking" rather than real faith. Real faith comes from a clear consciounce attained by doing this to the best of one's ability:


* Personal accountability
* Confession of sin, repentance and restitution, and
* Godly living.

(Too often we stop at just having faith that we are saved and not looking further at what it is God would have us do.)

Then by standing on the promises that God makes throughout the bible, healing through faith becomes a reality as do other gifts of the Spirit.
This is something I've experienced in my own life.

I don't think it's God telling you this through your spirit. And, being personally acquainted with a couple of scientific fields, I can safely say there is no agenda. The people who do science are as varied as the people who don't. Believing doctors is not the same as making them gods. Your views on science are highly unorthodox.

Shenren pointed out that there were many instances of sickness in the Bible that were not "faith healed" by the Apostles. You may want to reread that and reconsider.

 

[ebia]

When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct

It's only fair to point out that what the Lord is telling a lot of other people contradicts what you say he is telling you.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Medicines aside, science and scripture will ultimately agree, when both sides learn more about each other, as well as themselves. Whether God inspires this or science discovers it it must happen. There can be no permanent disagreement between the two.

 

[LoG]

Shenren pointed out that there were many instances of sickness in the Bible that were not "faith healed" by the Apostles. You may want to reread that and reconsider.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

The greek word astheneo is translated "sick" here, whereas in the 22 other instances that Paul used the word it meant weak, weakness or weakening. Trophimus may have been suffering from working too hard, or he may have been weak as he was recovering from an illness, or he may have been weak because he was actually sick, or he may have been suffering from a weak conscience or a weak will (like some of Paul's other companions who ended up deserting him) or he may haven't had the faith within himself to receive the healing.

Timothy's Stomach

The apostle Paul told Timothy to drink wine and not just water, because Timothy was experiencing frequent stomach illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23, below). This verse is sometimes used to show that Paul couldn't heal Timothy, but clearly Paul was writing to Timothy. Paul was nowhere near Timothy and could not have laid hands on Timothy even if he wanted to!
Timothy had traveled extensively with Paul, but after Paul left him in Ephesus to provide leadership there, Timothy had "frequent illnesses" in his stomach from drinking the local water (for example, see The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.730, 745). Here is that verse:

"Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." (1 Timothy 5:23)​

Notice that Timothy did not have an "illness" (singular) that was never healed, but instead he had several stomach illnesses (plural) because of the local water. Since he had "frequent illnesses" (plural), it shows that each stomach illness was healed each time! Therefore, this passage should be used to prove, not fight, the view that it is God's will for us to be healed. http://www.layhands.com/ObjectionsAgainstHealing.htm






Paul's "Thorn"

What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"? There has been a lot of speculation about this, but Paul tells us exactly what it was. It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7, below). Nowhere in the New Testament does this word "messenger" or "angel" (angelos in the Greek) ever refer to sickness or disease, it always refers to sentient, living beings (usually angels, but sometimes humans). Paul did not use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically told us that it was a demonic angel. Paul also told us exactly why this demon was sent to torment him: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations."

http://www.layhands.com/ObjectionsAgainstHealing.htm



Proving that Christians can be afflicted by demons.

 

[ebia]

Timothy's Stomach

The apostle Paul told Timothy to drink wine and not just water, because Timothy was experiencing frequent stomach illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23, below).

Yep. In other words, Paul prescribed some medicine (a drug, no less).

This verse is sometimes used to show that Paul couldn't heal Timothy, but clearly Paul was writing to Timothy. Paul was nowhere near Timothy and could not have laid hands on Timothy even if he wanted to!

Not that any of this is remotely relevent, but do you think God can't heal at a distance?

Timothy had traveled extensively with Paul, but after Paul left him in Ephesus to provide leadership there, Timothy had "frequent illnesses" in his stomach from drinking the local water (for example, see The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.730, 745). Here is that verse:

"Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses." (1 Timothy 5:23)​

Notice that Timothy did not have an "illness" (singular) that was never healed, but instead he had several stomach illnesses (plural) because of the local water. Since he had "frequent illnesses" (plural), it shows that each stomach illness was healed each time! Therefore, this passage should be used to prove, not fight, the view that it is God's will for us to be healed.

Funny how a repeated headache isn't healed, but repeated stomach ache is. But regardless - to be relevent to your point you have to prove not only was he healed (it's not much of a healing if you get the same again almost straight away), but that the healing was neither natural nor helped by medicine but was miraculous. Given that we know medicine (wine) was prescribed and we are not told about any miracle it clearly stands against your argument not for it.

Therefore, this passage should be used to prove, not fight, the view that it is God's will for us to be healed.

Let me repeat for the hard of hearing, no-one is remotely suggesting that God doesn't heal. We are trying to point out that most of the time he does this through natural processes and through medics. These are as much God's healing power as a supernatural miracle.

Perhaps next time you might like to write your own arguments that actually address the points being raised directly rather than cut and pasting someone else's work from a website that is addressing a related but different question.

 

[gluadys]

Let me repeat for the hard of hearing, no-one is remotely suggesting that God doesn't heal. We are trying to point out that most of the time he does this through natural processes and through medics. These are as much God's healing power as a supernatural miracle.

Yes. That is the point.

 

[shernren]

The science and medical fields are made up of fallible human beings. To believe everything that comes from their interpretations and theories is to put them in the place of God. When the Lord through my spirit is telling me that a certain scientific theory is incorrect or that anti-depressants are not beneficial, I'll believe Him rather than the doctor or scientist regardless of the research and data they say proves they are correct. So in my opinion not all medicine comes from God.

How do you know that God has told you through your spirit that medicine is not of Him and that antidepressants are harmful? Have you had a face-to-face vision with Jesus - did He tell you in plain English those very words? Did He specifically give you a dream supplied with independent interpretation showing that the modern drug industry is one big giant offense against God's will?

Or is "the protest of my spirit" simply a fuzzy discomfort every time somebody happens to say something which happens to disagree with what you think the Bible says?

I am not being flippant. To test the spirits is a Biblical imperative, and once you claim the authority that God has somehow supernaturally told you such-and-such a thing you are under responsibility to tell just how. I am trying my best not to doubt you, but the witness of your spirit contradicts with my personal experience. When my elder sister went through depression, we had her prayed for by various people with spiritual authority, ranging from the pastor of my church to my father to a faith healer (Christian, not some other religion). Not once were we told not to send her for professional treatment. We were fully aware that her depression had a spiritual dimension and that drugs alone weren't going to do much for it. But we were also convinced that her depression had a very physical dimension, being particularly obvious at certain times of the day and the onset of winter in UK where she was studying, and we were convinced that the antidepressants would aid in the cure of that dimension of her illness. We were never told otherwise by anyone who prayed for her. No supernatural revelation from God that the drugs were actually harming her. Not even tinglings in the spirit that her daily dose was an open declaration of lack of faith. The closest I felt was regret that her depression was so ingrained that it needed physical treatment, and renewed urgency for prayer now that her depression seemed to affect the whole person - once the antidepressants appeared to have even the slightest beneficial effect on her.

As you can see, the testimony of my spirit does not quite tally with yours. And neither does the testimony of all the Christians over the years who have been moved by God to set up hospitals. Places where doctors (oh! the workers of the devil!) dispensed medicine (oh! the horrifying invention of atheist man!) to patients (oh! the faithless infidels!). Has even one Christian medical worker over the years had any revelation from God that their supplies of antibiotics and Panadols and antidepressants were actually offending Him instead of spreading His good Name?

 

[LoG]

As you can see, the testimony of my spirit does not quite tally with yours. And neither does the testimony of all the Christians over the years who have been moved by God to set up hospitals. Places where doctors (oh! the workers of the devil!) dispensed medicine (oh! the horrifying invention of atheist man!) to patients (oh! the faithless infidels!). Has even one Christian medical worker over the years had any revelation from God that their supplies of antibiotics and Panadols and antidepressants were actually offending Him instead of spreading His good Name?

I can understand that you may have some anger about this topic, shernren. I assume you are being facetious in your last paragraph. If not, well I certainly don't deny that doctors, hospitals and medicine are required for atheists, agnostics, those whose god does not promise healing, accident victims, etc, etc.

Healing through faith and forgiveness isn't just a miraculous happening. It often comes as a result of seeing God's sufficiency in an area that caused stress for a long time. Stress over long-term, results in physical and mental ailments, but when a person repents of not trusting in Him, the physical manifestations of the spiritual malady will start to heal, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
Depression I have learned comes from anger turned inwards. It can come about for any number of reasons but a couple of prominent ones are that those who are perfectionists, try to live up to an ideal which is not humanly possible. The failures then cause anger at oneself for not doing better, which when stretched over a period of time culminates in a depressive state.
Another cause is when there is an inability to admit to having anger or hate for another. This is rather common for christians because there is such a taboo about hating others that we don't learn how to acknowledge it, deal with it and let it go. Instead it is internalized and covered with guilt and shame towards oneself for being so unchristian. Over a period of time the anger towards others is so well hidden by self-hatred that it is next to impossible to dig back up.
Throw some anti-depressants on top of it all to really cover up the internal conflicts and you have a powderkeg brewing.

To test the spirits is a Biblical imperative, and once you claim the authority that God has somehow supernaturally told you such-and-such a thing you are under responsibility to tell just how.

I'm not aware of any scriptural injunction that I'm to "tell"anything to scoffers or throw "pearls" around. I shared a little about the things I had to learn to be healed from alcoholism, drug addiction, depression and Bi-polar out of respect for your sister. May God bless and keep her during her trials.

As a further witness to what God told me about trusting Him instead of medicines, I offer you this link to the testimony of a 17 year old girl when she was faced with the choice of who to put her trust in.

 

[ebia]

I can understand that you may have some anger about this topic, shernren.

I don't know about shernren, but I'm angry. Angry because your unscientific, unorthodox, unbiblical and generally uninformed and unsupported opinions are - if others at risk listen to you - downright dangerous (not to mention bordering on blasphemous IMO).

I assume you are being facetious in your last paragraph. If not, well I certainly don't deny that doctors, hospitals and medicine are required for atheists, agnostics, those whose god does not promise healing, accident victims, etc, etc.

God provides natural and medically assisted healing for all of us. If you want to deny his working that's your call, but don't deny it to others.

Healing through faith and forgiveness isn't just a miraculous happening. It often comes as a result of seeing God's sufficiency in an area that caused stress for a long time. Stress over long-term, results in physical and mental ailments, but when a person repents of not trusting in Him, the physical manifestations of the spiritual malady will start to heal, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
Depression I have learned comes from anger turned inwards. It can come about for any number of reasons but a couple of prominent ones are that those who are perfectionists, try to live up to an ideal which is not humanly possible. The failures then cause anger at oneself for not doing better, which when stretched over a period of time culminates in a depressive state.
Another cause is when there is an inability to admit to having anger or hate for another. This is rather common for christians because there is such a taboo about hating others that we don't learn how to acknowledge it, deal with it and let it go. Instead it is internalized and covered with guilt and shame towards oneself for being so unchristian. Over a period of time the anger towards others is so well hidden by self-hatred that it is next to impossible to dig back up.
Throw some anti-depressants on top of it all to really cover up the internal conflicts and you have a powderkeg brewing.

Yet more unsubstantiated and uninformed personal opinion?

I'm not aware of any scriptural injunction that I'm to "tell"anything to scoffers or throw "pearls" around. I shared a little about the things I had to learn to be healed from alcoholism, drug addiction, depression and Bi-polar out of respect for your sister. May God bless and keep her during her trials.

If you are genuinely a prophet you'd except your revelation to be tested. If not then it's no more than your personal feeling.

As a further witness to what God told me about trusting Him instead of medicines, I offer you this link to the testimony of a 17 year old girl when she was faced with the choice of who to put her trust in.

If you right off failures as "a lack of faith" or similar, then you can show just about anything as successful. Miraculous healing from the Flying Spagetti Monster by faithful consuption of lasagne anyone?

But I'm allowing myself to be sidetracked again - your job is not to prove that God can heal miraculously (that's not in doubt), or even that he does sometimes heal miraculously. To make your case you need to prove that Christians are supposed to reject God's gifts of natural healing and medicine. You have yet to properly address Paul's clear case of prescribing medicine (wine) to Timothy, let along give any support to your case - biblical, scientific, or otherwise - other than your personal feeling.

 

[Pats]

I don't see how this thread has anything to do with origins theology anymore, but I'd like to add my thoughts, none the less.

I have worked in the medical feild since '93 doing all sorts of work. I see God's hand working through medicine all the time. Every time I had the oportunity to give birth to one of my children in a safe hospital environment, I praised God. There are people in other countries today that don't have that opportunity and suffer for it.

Scienc is a method of determining how things work, not the enemy of God. God wants us to explore creation. Simply because I do not see that common descent is fully supported by science, does not mean I think science is evil.

That being said, if I had cancer, I would certainly undergo whatever therapy the doctor recommended and praise God if it put the cancer into remission. Afterall, not all cancer patients who undergo medical therapy experience remisssion. And I also see the blessing of the knowledge of how to put cancer into remission as being of God.

One of the reasons I left the Baptist church was that it teaches that depression is a sin. Some psychological conditions are entirely physical and require a physical sollution. Some are spiritual or have progressed to the point where they require a blend of medicine and prayer.

I can't give man full credit for modern medicine when I know God has blessed us with it. The ideology that we should only rely strictly on prayer alone for medical needs is scarey since God's answer might very well be, "Go see a doctor."

Note:This is not to say that every scientific theory is of God.

 

[shernren]

I can understand that you may have some anger about this topic, shernren. I assume you are being facetious in your last paragraph. If not, well I certainly don't deny that doctors, hospitals and medicine are required for atheists, agnostics, those whose god does not promise healing, accident victims, etc, etc.

I am not angry. I simply disagree, quite vehemently. I have no one to be angry at for the simple reason that by God's grace my sister was healed, and by God's grace nobody told her that her drugs were evil. By God's grace antidepressants worked for her. If you believe that these drugs indicated a lack of faith on my part or on the part of my family so be it. I quite frankly would not care.

I was not being facetious. You may not realize it given your background but coming from a colonial country I recognize the immense witness the Christian hospitals have been in our multicultural society. "Assunta Hospital" - the name alone is a testimony. And my opinion is that your beliefs make a mockery of the efforts these Christians made to bring medicine to us.

I can see very clearly that you are not going to be convinced by me. So be it. We shall have to agree to disagree. I can only pray that God will not allow what you believe to bring harm or death to anyone.