God goofs again!

[Mallon]

This statement tells me just that, that one day man will say they can explain every aspect of God.

You won't hear a scientist say that, since a good scientist knows that science is restricted to the natural world, and cannot explain the supernatural. The only people who suggest otherwise are Creationists.

Stop knocking down your own strawmen.

 

[ebia]

Because their solutions create more problems than they solve.

For most of history this has been true of most of medicine.

If you are claiming that current mental health treatements "create more problems than they solve" then I'm asking you to provide sound evidence because it's a very dangerous and damaging statement to make.

Many now look at things and say science may not be able to explain it now but it will one day do so. This statement tells me just that, that one day man will say they can explain every aspect of God.

What it should tell you is that science doesn't put up it hands and say "too hard" everytime it encounters a question it can't answer; instead it tries to find the answer. That's how you make progress and learn stuff; the alternative is living in ignorance.

It should also tell you quite the opposite of what you claim - that science never says "we know everything". And science never says we know anything about God because science acknowledges that it doesn't have the tools to investigate God.

Why place your faith in man when you can place it on God.

It's not an either/or - you have a "God of the gaps" where the only place for God to exist is the ever diminishing places we can't explain - which is why you are so afraid of discovery.

God is in everything and works through his creation. He is in everything we can explain as well as everything we can't (yet). And everything - bible included - makes it quite clear that he uses people to fulfill his purposes. When a doctor heals a problem that is just as much God healing as when the healing happens naturally or when healing happens miraculously.

 

[Willtor]

For the instant I would go so that my arm could be set. But I would hope that I had faith enough to by the end of that night take the cast off. As I know our Father can heal such a minor thing as a broken arm.

As for going to the doctor for the mind? who is saying that it's realy the mind and not spiritual that man is "fighting" perhapes man is doing nothing but druging things that need not be druged. But of course in todays world it can be explained as this is what it must be. Today if Jesus were to say it's not that and it can be cast out of them He would be laughed at. Because in todays world we "know" what we are talking about.


God bless!
Raist

I sincerely hope you never break your arm. Actually, I hope nobody here breaks an arm. But doubly so for you. It's good to keep your arm in a fixed position while the bone heals.

 

[Raistlinorr]

You won't hear a scientist say that, since a good scientist knows that science is restricted to the natural world, and cannot explain the supernatural. The only people who suggest otherwise are Creationists.

Stop knocking down your own strawmen.

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

You see this endless circle can go back and forth day in and day out. We could split this thread 100 times and still niether side will waver. You have your evidence I have what I feel to be right.

You and others may call my version a God of gaps but sorry this is not the case. I see where creation is described I see no gap I do not see where God is not telling me how it all started. I can give you story on top of story of ppl being healed, but science will explain it away as mind over matter type thing. The unexplained power of the mind is what realy did what ever.

You wh otake science as evidence will say God explains through His creation. This is true but not the way you speak it. In my eyes I see the power and glory of our Father by seeing a flower bloom, a baby born, the great works of nature around me in general. He explains His glory and might as well as His gental loving side through every bit of this.

To the TEs I'm ignorant and foolish for thinking the way I do I'm misguided and simple minded. To me I see the TEs as maybe being mislead. Maybe I am wrong but to me it's a matter of my own faith. I can take being laughed at and ridiculed for believing my God can create every thing in such greatness in the "snap of a finger". I don't need to sit back and agree with those unbelievers in the way things came about, because believing what science says is not far off from the unbelievers way of thinking at least thats how I veiw it.

If you can have a great faith and walk with the Lord when much of His great works can be explained by man thats good for you. To me again I'l say it seems that man it taking some of that greatness away.

But to sit back and say this story in the bible is alligorical or not totaly factual, but merely to teach a lesson does not seem right. Who is to say what realy happened and what did not? Were any of us there? Perhapes God caused the flood not to leave traces or perhapes it's left traces but in our blindness to say it never occered we are missing it. To say Adam and Eve were never actual ppl is pushing it even further and saying we came from apes does nothing to tell us when the actual "man" of the bible appeared.
See I am looking at things from a veiw of where I used to stand. I started looking at what I was being taught on the other side and desided that the answers were not all that great. They did not answer the key issues I wanted answered. Either way your putting faith in some ones story, I am going to choose to put my faith in the story told by the bible. I'm not going to sit back and call it myth, alligorical, fable, nonfactual, or what ever else you choose to word it as. If it is not a creation as the bible states it as than it's calling the bibles story not fully true.

Like I said this could go back and forth and neither side will change, at least not by the others words. I choose to step down from this circle as it's leading to an endless trail of no where.


God bless!
Raist

 

[Raistlinorr]

I sincerely hope you never break your arm. Actually, I hope nobody here breaks an arm. But doubly so for you. It's good to keep your arm in a fixed position while the bone heals.

I know about this as I am trained as a first responder

But you just ignored the fact that I said I would get it in a cast. Also that God could heal it before the day was done. Or do you doubt that our Father could heal a broken arm?

God bless!
Raist

 

[The Lady Kate]

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

Indeed. The things that are unknown today may very well be discovered tomorrow. Is that a bad thing?

 

[Willtor]

I know about this as I am trained as a first responder

But you just ignored the fact that I said I would get it in a cast. Also that God could heal it before the day was done. Or do you doubt that our Father could heal a broken arm?

God bless!
Raist

I don't doubt that there is nothing that the Lord cannot do that He wills to do. But I'm not a big fan of testing God. If it isn't His will to heal it immediately, I am not eager to "faith heal" it, myself. I am far more interested in identifying His will in any given situation than I am in trying to ascertain whether any particular possibility is His will.

I don't question whether He can. I question whether He wills it to be so.

 

[KerrMetric]

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

As a scientist I can tell you that is the whole idea - to explain things. That is a laudable goal.

 

[vossler]

Welcome to Origins Raistlinoor,

I haven't read the previous posts on this thread simply because I didn't like the title, so I don't really know what led up to this post of yours but I will have to say it echoes my sentiments completely.

You see this endless circle can go back and forth day in and day out. We could split this thread 100 times and still niether side will waver. You have your evidence I have what I feel to be right.

Boy are you right here.

You who take science as evidence will say God explains through His creation. This is true but not the way you speak it. In my eyes I see the power and glory of our Father by seeing a flower bloom, a baby born, the great works of nature around me in general. He explains His glory and might as well as His gentle loving side through every bit of this.

To the TEs I'm ignorant and foolish for thinking the way I do I'm misguided and simple minded. To me I see the TEs as maybe being mislead. Maybe I am wrong but to me it's a matter of my own faith. I can take being laughed at and ridiculed for believing my God can create every thing in such greatness in the "snap of a finger". I don't need to sit back and agree with those unbelievers in the way things came about, because believing what science says is not far off from the unbelievers way of thinking at least thats how I view it.

Wow, are we ever on the same page.

I could go on because the rest of your post was right on also, but I'm just going to choose one nugent of truth and highlight it.

I am going to choose to put my faith in the story told by the bible. I'm not going to sit back and call it myth, alligorical, fable, nonfactual, or what ever else you choose to word it as. If it is not a creation as the bible states it as than it's calling the bibles story not fully true.

You don't know how refreshing that is to hear. Sometimes it can get rather humanistic around here and one could wonder if God actually existed in any real sense. God is very real and in control, all we need to do is submit to Him. Thanks for blessing me today with your post.

Like I said this could go back and forth and neither side will change, at least not by the others words. I choose to step down from this circle as it's leading to an endless trail of no where.

If you stick around here any length of time this will be a recurring thought.

 

[Gwenyfur]

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

You see this endless circle can go back and forth day in and day out. We could split this thread 100 times and still niether side will waver. You have your evidence I have what I feel to be right.

You and others may call my version a God of gaps but sorry this is not the case. I see where creation is described I see no gap I do not see where God is not telling me how it all started. I can give you story on top of story of ppl being healed, but science will explain it away as mind over matter type thing. The unexplained power of the mind is what realy did what ever.

You wh otake science as evidence will say God explains through His creation. This is true but not the way you speak it. In my eyes I see the power and glory of our Father by seeing a flower bloom, a baby born, the great works of nature around me in general. He explains His glory and might as well as His gental loving side through every bit of this.

To the TEs I'm ignorant and foolish for thinking the way I do I'm misguided and simple minded. To me I see the TEs as maybe being mislead. Maybe I am wrong but to me it's a matter of my own faith. I can take being laughed at and ridiculed for believing my God can create every thing in such greatness in the "snap of a finger". I don't need to sit back and agree with those unbelievers in the way things came about, because believing what science says is not far off from the unbelievers way of thinking at least thats how I veiw it.

If you can have a great faith and walk with the Lord when much of His great works can be explained by man thats good for you. To me again I'l say it seems that man it taking some of that greatness away.

But to sit back and say this story in the bible is alligorical or not totaly factual, but merely to teach a lesson does not seem right. Who is to say what realy happened and what did not? Were any of us there? Perhapes God caused the flood not to leave traces or perhapes it's left traces but in our blindness to say it never occered we are missing it. To say Adam and Eve were never actual ppl is pushing it even further and saying we came from apes does nothing to tell us when the actual "man" of the bible appeared.
See I am looking at things from a veiw of where I used to stand. I started looking at what I was being taught on the other side and desided that the answers were not all that great. They did not answer the key issues I wanted answered. Either way your putting faith in some ones story, I am going to choose to put my faith in the story told by the bible. I'm not going to sit back and call it myth, alligorical, fable, nonfactual, or what ever else you choose to word it as. If it is not a creation as the bible states it as than it's calling the bibles story not fully true.

Like I said this could go back and forth and neither side will change, at least not by the others words. I choose to step down from this circle as it's leading to an endless trail of no where.


God bless!
Raist

Reps for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dannager]

Like I said this could go back and forth and neither side will change, at least not by the others words.

This may come as a surprise to some of the creationists here, but very few of us supporting evolutionary theory do so to change the minds of the people we're arguing with. We know that 90% of the creationists posting here don't have an open mind to begin with - those who do are the exception rather than the rule. I argue against a literal interpretation of the Bible, against Intelligent Design's inclusion in science curricula and in defense of evolutionary theory - and I do all of this not for those I argue with, but rather for those lurkers who do not participate but simply watch. At any given point the number of guests viewing the CvE and OT boards can match the number of registered participants. Many of these people are undecided or are looking for information. It's for these people that myself and many other supporters of evolutionary theory argue.

You may bow out of the debate when you believe that the other side won't change its mind. I came into this debate accepting that fact.

 

[Mallon]

Not that I expect you to answer anymore, but...

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

Scientists have been saying this for hundreds of years. And guess what: they can and have explained things. They've told us where the genetic code is stored; they've showed us why everything that goes up, must come down; they've explained to us the wave-particle duality of light... all without threatening the existence of God. I don't understand why you see science as such a threat.

You wh otake science as evidence will say God explains through His creation.

Actually, the Bible tells us this directly. Read Romans 1:20. This is why many of us feel we can come to know God better through His Creation.

To me again I'l say it seems that man it taking some of that greatness away.

Why? You just admitted yourself that science does not force God's greatness and splendor into the gaps of the unknown. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

But to sit back and say this story in the bible is alligorical or not totaly factual, but merely to teach a lesson does not seem right.

What does not seem right is the insistence that the Bible be literally true -- especially given that factuality was not a requisite to something being true, even within biblical times. As has been said elsewhere, truth =/= historical reality.

saying we came from apes does nothing to tell us when the actual "man" of the bible appeared.

What does that matter with respect to our salvation?

 

[LoG]

If you are claiming that current mental health treatements "create more problems than they solve" then I'm asking you to provide sound evidence because it's a very dangerous and damaging statement to make.

It is neither the thread nor forum for discussion of that. I likely wouldn't be able to supply you with evidence that you would consider to be sound, however through personal experience and that of friends and loved ones, I stand by my comments. The power of God to heal through faith in Him is real healing, not a dumbing or numbing down of the patient through "better chemistry."

OT- I find it interesting that the TE's that commented on this are all proponents of the medical field as opposed to God.
Truly said: "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

 

[Marshall Janzen]

OT- I find it interesting that the TE's that commented on this are all proponents of the medical field as opposed to God.
Truly said: "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

Well, a YEC in this thread seems to think it is okay to get a broken arm set and placed in a cast. Do you think it would be fair to characterize him as being "a proponent of the medical field as opposed to God"? If not, I think that shows that you don't buy the false dichotomy you're attempting to sell here. You're already quite aware how someone can accept a treatment offered by the medical field without rejecting God.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

For the instant I would go so that my arm could be set. But I would hope that I had faith enough to by the end of that night take the cast off. As I know our Father can heal such a minor thing as a broken arm.

That's fascinating. Our Father can heal something minor like a broken arm, as long as we've used medical intervention to set the bone first? I think God can heal the broken arm and set the bone too. He can cure a terminal case of cancer, reattach a severed head, or do anything else. For me, it's not a matter of whether or not God is capable of healing something. Just because he's capable doesn't mean he's going to do it. Among other reasons, if God healed every wound or illness, our world would cease to be real, and our actions would cease to have consequences.

Why should God supernaturally help someone who refuses the help God has already provided through natural means? Isn't that kind of like an able-bodied sluggard who prays to God to provide his daily bread but won't go to his job to work?

 

[ebia]

It is neither the thread nor forum for discussion of that. I likely wouldn't be able to supply you with evidence that you would consider to be sound,

So your statement is worthless personal opinion.

The power of God to heal through faith in Him is real healing, not a dumbing or numbing down of the patient through "better chemistry."

You clearly have little idea of the subject you are talking about and cannot substantiate your claims. If someone chooses to listen to you I guess that's their choice.

OT- I find it interesting that the TE's that commented on this are all proponents of the medical field as opposed to God. Truly said: "having a form of godliness but denying its power."

The medicine isn't in opposition to God - God works through medicine (and through all sorts of other ways). It is you who are denying God his glory by taking part of his work and claiming it is in opposition to him.

 

[ebia]

This may come as a surprise to some of the creationists here, but very few of us supporting evolutionary theory do so to change the minds of the people we're arguing with. We know that 90% of the creationists posting here don't have an open mind to begin with - those who do are the exception rather than the rule. I argue against a literal interpretation of the Bible, against Intelligent Design's inclusion in science curricula and in defense of evolutionary theory - and I do all of this not for those I argue with, but rather for those lurkers who do not participate but simply watch. At any given point the number of guests viewing the CvE and OT boards can match the number of registered participants. Many of these people are undecided or are looking for information. It's for these people that myself and many other supporters of evolutionary theory argue.

Can I add to that that some of us are here also to make it clear to lurkers that Christianity does not require you to check in your brain when you come through the door; that it's possible to hang on to what is clearly factual and still come to Christ.

 

[LoG]

So your statement is worthless personal opinion.

You have personal experience with this type of medicine that puts you into a position to judge the worthiness of my opinion?

You clearly have little idea of the subject you are talking about and cannot substantiate your claims. If someone chooses to listen to you I guess that's their choice.

Again, you have personal experience to benefit us with?

The medicine isn't in opposition to God - God works through medicine (and through all sorts of other ways). It is you who are denying God his glory by taking part of his work and claiming it is in opposition to him.

God is glorified with medicine that turns people into addicted basket cases who are even more prone to suicidal behaviour than they are without it? God is glorified by drugs which keeps one from repentance and true healing for what ails them?

 

[ebia]

But you see I have heard scientists say that one day such and such will be explained and blah blah blah.

And? That's what science does - find explanations for things. Very often those explanations turn out to be useful.

You and others may call my version a God of gaps but sorry this is not the case. I see where creation is described I see no gap I do not see where God is not telling me how it all started.

You see God in the stuff science can't explain (an ever decreasing amount of stuff). We see God in everything, including what science can explain and what it can't (yet).

I can give you story on top of story of ppl being healed, but science will explain it away as mind over matter type thing. The unexplained power of the mind is what realy did what ever

I can give you story on top of story (verifiable ones at that) of people being healed in St Vincent's & Mercy Hospital. God is in those healings just as much as in your supposed miraculous ones.

You wh otake science as evidence will say God explains through His creation. This is true but not the way you speak it. In my eyes I see the power and glory of our Father by seeing a flower bloom, a baby born, the great works of nature around me in general. He explains His glory and might as well as His gental loving side through every bit of this.

No-one is disagreeing with that.

To the TEs I'm ignorant and foolish for thinking the way I do I'm misguided and simple minded.

I couldn't possibly comment.

To me I see the TEs as maybe being mislead. Maybe I am wrong but to me it's a matter of my own faith. I can take being laughed at and ridiculed for believing my God can create every thing in such greatness in the "snap of a finger".

Most TEs also believe God can create everything "in the snap of a finger". But they can see that's not how he choose to do it.

I don't need to sit back and agree with those unbelievers in the way things came about, because believing what science says is not far off from the unbelievers way of thinking at least thats how I veiw it.

Logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_by_association

If you can have a great faith and walk with the Lord when much of His great works can be explained by man thats good for you. To me again I'l say it seems that man it taking some of that greatness away.

That's because you create a false dichotomy for yourself: either I can explain it OR it demonstrates the Glory of God. TEs recognise that a world that is consistant, understandable and explainable enhances the Glory of God rather than diminishes it.

But to sit back and say this story in the bible is alligorical or not totaly factual, but merely to teach a lesson does not seem right.

How can you put "mearly" in front of "to teach a lesson". Teaching a lesson (or many lessons) is the most important thing any story (factual or otherwise) can possibly do. Any value as a factual account is completely trivial by comparison.

Who is to say what realy happened and what did not?

Creation itself.

Were any of us there? Perhapes God caused the flood not to leave traces or perhapes it's left traces but in our blindness to say it never occered we are missing it.

He would have to not just removed any traces but created a momumental amount of evidence showing that it never happened. I don't know about you, but I don't believe in a God who speaks a lie into his creation.

To say Adam and Eve were never actual ppl is pushing it even further and saying we came from apes does nothing to tell us when the actual "man" of the bible appeared.

We don't need to know that. Just because you would like the bible to be a modern style history book won't make it so.

See I am looking at things from a veiw of where I used to stand. I started looking at what I was being taught on the other side and desided that the answers were not all that great. They did not answer the key issues I wanted answered. Either way your putting faith in some ones story, I am going to choose to put my faith in the story told by the bible. I'm not going to sit back and call it myth, alligorical, fable, nonfactual, or what ever else you choose to word it as. If it is not a creation as the bible states it as than it's calling the bibles story not fully true.

Fact is not more true than myth.

 

[ebia]

I know about this as I am trained as a first responder

But you just ignored the fact that I said I would get it in a cast. Also that God could heal it before the day was done. Or do you doubt that our Father could heal a broken arm?

Why put it in a cast then - God could heal it instantly without? Don't you trust him to line the bones up properly or something? He's not really an old man with a long white beard and failing eyesight you know

Or he could heal it through normal channels using trained medics acting in his service (whether they know it or not).