God doesn't like me

[fatpie42]

The complication is that we don't find it convenient to live fully in love with God and humanity at all times; it is the heart of sin. We aren't all dedicated to that degree of love. Often enough, humanity takes the wrong thing for a target...such as...a man who spends a lot of his time reading books and neglects his wife...then his wife burns the books...the guy's heart has not changed so then he is more rebellious against her for destroying his books...he finds something else to occupy his time in spite of her. The heart of the matter is sin and people thinking sin's appear is a temporary gain. But sin never replaces what love is.

That doesn't change the fact that morality is complicated. Certainly the emotions play a big part, and I would be the last to deny this. But morality is still complicated whether one is a Christian or not.

 

[dvd_holc]

That doesn't change the fact that morality is complicated. Certainly the emotions play a big part, and I would be the last to deny this. But morality is still complicated whether one is a Christian or not.

What complication or objections do you have to living loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controled life? Then, I have to ask what do you have a problem accepting this is because God is active in your life?

 

[Reformationist]

Just like Ghandi wasn't a hindu and Mohammed wasn't a muslim.

You're equating Hitler being a Christian to Ghandi being a Hindu and Mohammed being a Muslim? Sure fatpie. Go with that line of thought. It will explain quite a bit to whomsoever you present it.

What kind of reasoning is that meant to be?

What kind of reasoning is it to acknowledge that Hitler wasn't a Christian? A very simple line of reasoning. You said Hitler was a Christian and worshipped God. I merely denied it. I know what it means to be a Christian and I can assure you that Hitler wasn't one. Taking that into account, my question to you is, what's your point?

If someone says they are Christian and worship like a Christian we normally describe them as Christian (even if it is only self-proclaimed and not 'in their heart'). Whether Hitler was a 'true' Christian in your eyes does not change the fact that he worshipped what he perceived the Christian God to be and knew of Christian theology.

First off, you need to do a bit more research on Hitler because He wasn't a Christian. Secondly, just because someone claims that they are a Christian doesn't make it so. He did not worship God so your entire ridiculous point is moot and borderline disputatious.

The fact remains that Christians do not agree on what is right or wrong, so this method of discovering right and wrong through worship obviously isn't working very well.

By all means, since Christians vary on their view of what is right and wrong that must mean that there is no established standard of right and wrong and that we should, instead, embrace philisophical doublespeak. Sure. That's the ticket.

fatpie42, if your responses are becoming nothing less than these silly attempts to discredit Christianity I'll bid you adieu. If, instead, you still have honest questions please let me know.

 

[fatpie42]

You're equating Hitler being a Christian to Ghandi being a Hindu and Mohammed being a Muslim? Sure fatpie. Go with that line of thought. It will explain quite a bit to whomsoever you present it.

Are you telling me that just because Ghandi called himself a hindu he is one? How can you be so sure?

Hitler was a practicing Christian. Please explain why, other than the fact that he wasn't a nice man, we should disbelieve him?

 

[fatpie42]

First off, you need to do a bit more research on Hitler because He wasn't a Christian. Secondly, just because someone claims that they are a Christian doesn't make it so. He did not worship God so your entire ridiculous point is moot and borderline disputatious.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

He was a practicing Christian. If you've done research that shows the contrary I'd be delighted to see it, but as far as I can tell you are just making an assumption based on the fact that Hitler wasn't nice.

 

[fatpie42]

The fact remains that Christians do not agree on what is right or wrong, so this method of discovering right and wrong through worship obviously isn't working very well.

By all means, since Christians vary on their view of what is right and wrong that must mean that there is no established standard of right and wrong and that we should, instead, embrace philisophical doublespeak. Sure. That's the ticket.

I am not making a claim that Christian morality is relativistic. I am merely saying that even within the Christian tradition there are disputes over morality. This does not mean that there is more than one correct way of acting, but simply that discovering what is right and wrong is not easy and cannot be ascertained by just worshipping God.

fatpie42, if your responses are becoming nothing less than these silly attempts to discredit Christianity I'll bid you adieu. If, instead, you still have honest questions please let me know.

I didn't say anything to discredit Christianity. If you believe that unless every Christian is an expert in ethical conduct Christianity is disputed, you are in trouble. I should like to think, however, that you are not so ridiculously naive.

 

[Reformationist]

Fatpie, it has been an enjoyable experience discussing these issues with you but it seems we are reaching the conclusion of any productive discussion.

I wish you well and invite you to ask any other questions you may have when you are so inclined.

God bless

 

[matthewgoh]

I have posted this in another thread;

To find God, first we must believe in Christ by faith alone, i.e. man cannot see God unless he sees Christ. God will never convince a non-believer by evidence and sign, or else the salvation (of Christ) cannot apply.

Once we have accepted Christ, we let the holy spirit guides us, i.e. we live by the holy spirit. Once our christianity faith is matured and strong, we will realize that all the teachings of Jesus is so true. That gives an assurance that Jesus is who he preached, i.e. the Son of God.

To sum up, man cannot find God by reasonings and logics. He will find God only through the process described above.

Just my thought. Intelligence will not lead you to salvation. If you want to find God, that's an easy way described above. God bless.

 

[53Isaiah]

Are you telling me that just because Ghandi called himself a hindu he is one? How can you be so sure?

Hitler was a practicing Christian. Please explain why, other than the fact that he wasn't a nice man, we should disbelieve him?

You are a Christian by action, not by title. The Bible tells us that we know people by their fruit. Nothing Hitler did exhibited the character of Christ, quite the contrary. But the average individual knows this. So the question then is, why would you call Hitler a Christian?

Your motive is disingenuous at best. And as a practicing humanist, I would ask you not to reduce the serotonin levels of us Christians, and practice the relative altruism of your faith.

 

[Reformationist]

I have posted this in another thread;


Just my thought. Intelligence will not lead you to salvation. If you want to find God, that's an easy way described above. God bless.

Umm....I read your post but, uh, what "process" do you mean? Are you referring to "accepting Christ?" If so, how does one do that?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[matthewgoh]

Umm....I read your post but, uh, what "process" do you mean? Are you referring to "accepting Christ?" If so, how does one do that?

Sorry, what I mean a process is; First accept Jesus as our savior, by faith. Then we build a close relationship with God. We let the Holy Spirit guide us to walk through the Christian journey. One must have a certain level of faith to understand and to fully accept the teachings of Christ. Then he will know for sure Jesus is the Son of God and our savior. It is a process; it started by faith, and journeys to a maturity stage when God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are experienced by onself with complete certainty - a stage when faith is no longer a blind faith.

Hope I have made myself clear, this is solely my personal experience and understanding of the Trinity nature of God.

 

[Reformationist]

Sorry, what I mean a process is; First accept Jesus as our savior, by faith.

Okay. Let's start here. How does one accept Jesus as his/her Savior by faith? Won't they need to already have faith to accept Him by faith?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[dvd_holc]

Are you telling me that just because Ghandi called himself a hindu he is one? How can you be so sure?

Hitler was a practicing Christian. Please explain why, other than the fact that he wasn't a nice man, we should disbelieve him?

When the Text are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous hermeneutical space is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be. This happened in the 20’s and 30’s in Germany, the theologians at the time were so “gun shy” of perusing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the likes of Albert Schweitzer and such that they totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible instead depending on things like Bart’s church dogmatics and Rudolf Bultman’s existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible created a hermeneutical space for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold – so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish – according to the German theologian Ernst Käsemann (in 1953).

The end result was Christianity that is absent of a Jewish Messiah who did not teach his people to purify humanity by killing what they found unpure. Instead, Jesus the Messiah taught people to be reclaimed to God and live in love with him and extend that love to all of his creations.

 

[matthewgoh]

Okay. Let's start here. How does one accept Jesus as his/her Savior by faith? Won't they need to already have faith to accept Him by faith?

Earlier, I said fatpie42 is intelligent, I was not being sarcastic, but with sincerity. He is knowledgable and sharp. But the fact is God is much much more intelligent than man. He allows the confusions, he allows those reasonings and arguments raised by non-believers. So the more I read this thread, the more I realize God's existence and his intelligence.

Ok, now come to the point which explains my above comments. The only way to salvation is by believing in Christ by faith alone. Since there's different levels of faith. So, believe by faith simply means free will, believe without seeing, without evidence, to believe just by hearing that Jesus is the Son of God. It works with the combination of the Divine power and our conscience. That's how I see it. This is the pre-requisite (condition) to receive the salvation made possible by Christ.

I am talking about the 1st stage of Christian faith; believe in Christ by faith (free will). I am not good at quoting verses, sorry. Jesus said something like; 1) Christ is the only way to heaven, 2) Noone see God unless he sees Christ, 3) Blessed are those who believe without seeing and 4) No sign will be given to this generation. Looking at these words by Christ, and the current environment we are in - they support my comments above.

Just my thought. God bless.

 

[fatpie42]

When the Text are divorced of the historical, cultural and linguistic context in which they were written a dangerous hermeneutical space is created for people to remake Jesus into whatever they decide He should be. This happened in the 20’s and 30’s in Germany, the theologians at the time were so “gun shy” of perusing the historical aspect of Jesus because of the likes of Albert Schweitzer and such that they totally denied the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible instead depending on things like Bart’s church dogmatics and Rudolf Bultman’s existential theology. This denial of the historical aspect of Jesus and the Bible created a hermeneutical space for the Nazi ideology to take hold in which they remade Jesus to fit their Arian mold – so much so that they declared Jesus was not particularly Jewish so much so they taught He was anti-Jewish – according to the German theologian Ernst Käsemann (in 1953).

The end result was Christianity that is absent of a Jewish Messiah who did not teach his people to purify humanity by killing what they found unpure. Instead, Jesus the Messiah taught people to be reclaimed to God and live in love with him and extend that love to all of his creations.

So he had dodgy theology. It doesn't change the fact that he based his beliefs on scripture and believed in Christianity wholeheartedly. I know you wouldn't call it 'genuine' Christianity, but the point I am making is that someone can call themselves a Christian and open themselves to the holy spirit, accept Christ as their saviour, have faith in Christ, and yet still turn out like Hitler.

You have accepted that Hitler's thought was not seperate from the theological ideas of the day and Barth is a respected theologian today.

Hitler was a Christian to the extent that he worshipped God with Christian beliefs. He didn't know right from wrong properly (by our standards at least. Perhaps what he did was right by God's standards then)? Now if you are going to have to say that someone must have the right theology to be a Christian, that is very different from saying that you simply have to confess Christ as your saviour and read the Bible.

Your motive is disingenuous at best. And as a practicing humanist, I would ask you not to reduce the serotonin levels of us Christians, and practice the relative altruism of your faith.

What I am saying is not baiting. I am very concerned at the absurd suggestion that Humanists are not REALLY moral. I think it is perfectly in line with my position as a humanist to feel strongly on this point. (Besides if you agreed with reformationist here, you wouldn't believe me capable of altruism).

 

[fatpie42]

Ok, now come to the point which explains my above comments. The only way to salvation is by believing in Christ by faith alone. Since there's different levels of faith. So, believe by faith simply means free will, believe without seeing, without evidence, to believe just by hearing that Jesus is the Son of God. It works with the combination of the Divine power and our conscience. That's how I see it. This is the pre-requisite (condition) to receive the salvation made possible by Christ.

I am talking about the 1st stage of Christian faith; believe in Christ by faith (free will). I am not good at quoting verses, sorry. Jesus said something like; 1) Christ is the only way to heaven, 2) Noone see God unless he sees Christ, 3) Blessed are those who believe without seeing and 4) No sign will be given to this generation. Looking at these words by Christ, and the current environment we are in - they support my comments above.

Saying that the only way to God is by believing in things without evidence (which appears to be your definition of 'faith') seems rather too close to a quote from Tom Sawyer (ever read Huckleberry Finn?):

"Faith is believing what you know ain't true"

I much prefer Reformationists assertion that faith in God is provided by God through grace. (Although more disturbingly it seems to mean that God has decided to damn me. I can't choose God's grace, God has to choose me).

 

[dvd_holc]

So he had dodgy theology. It doesn't change the fact that he based his beliefs on scripture and believed in Christianity wholeheartedly. I know you wouldn't call it 'genuine' Christianity, but the point I am making is that someone can call themselves a Christian and open themselves to the holy spirit, accept Christ as their saviour, have faith in Christ, and yet still turn out like Hitler.

You have accepted that Hitler's thought was not seperate from the theological ideas of the day and Barth is a respected theologian today.

Hitler was a Christian to the extent that he worshipped God with Christian beliefs. He didn't know right from wrong properly (by our standards at least. Perhaps what he did was right by God's standards then)? Now if you are going to have to say that someone must have the right theology to be a Christian, that is very different from saying that you simply have to confess Christ as your savior and read the Bible.

Your second statement was not directed to a statement I made, so I won’t respond to it now.

You might say that his theology was dodgy, and I won’t argue that they (Hitler, his minions, and those who taught them that theology) were a different bible to the literal sense. However, the only thing he took of Christianity was the name. It is possible for people to say they are a Christian, Jesus is their savior, and open themselves up to the Holy Spirit, but the truth is beyond their words. To accept Jesus as their savior is to submit oneself to God in a humble way so that he reforms your identity around his purpose of harmony of life which is love. To accept God, we have to submit to the scriptures in the way the God functioned then so that we can learn for the now. We don’t look back to the scripture with some preconceived ideas about how that time was…We learn from it in its culture, times, and ways. To submit is not what Hitler did…He hated and destroyed…the Way is love and build. If your point is only that people can precieve a ton of different things from the bible…I have to agree…but only the Spirit reveals the truth which also has mean layers and parallels that run through it. If this is the stumbling block…then pray humbly and paticently to God to handle this for you so that you can love him fully.

 

[Reformationist]

Earlier, I said fatpie42 is intelligent, I was not being sarcastic, but with sincerity. He is knowledgable and sharp. But the fact is God is much much more intelligent than man. He allows the confusions, he allows those reasonings and arguments raised by non-believers. So the more I read this thread, the more I realize God's existence and his intelligence.

Ok, now come to the point which explains my above comments. The only way to salvation is by believing in Christ by faith alone. Since there's different levels of faith. So, believe by faith simply means free will, believe without seeing, without evidence, to believe just by hearing that Jesus is the Son of God. It works with the combination of the Divine power and our conscience. That's how I see it. This is the pre-requisite (condition) to receive the salvation made possible by Christ.

I am talking about the 1st stage of Christian faith; believe in Christ by faith (free will). I am not good at quoting verses, sorry. Jesus said something like; 1) Christ is the only way to heaven, 2) Noone see God unless he sees Christ, 3) Blessed are those who believe without seeing and 4) No sign will be given to this generation. Looking at these words by Christ, and the current environment we are in - they support my comments above.

Just my thought. God bless.

Okay Matt. Let me see if I've got this straight. You are actually telling me that the first step of our Christian walk, and the way you encourage non-believers to start believing in Christ, is nothing more than telling them to arbitrarily make the claim that they believe in Christ??

Please tell me there is more to it than that. What you seem to be espousing is irrationalism.

 

[Reformationist]

Saying that the only way to God is by believing in things without evidence (which appears to be your definition of 'faith') seems rather too close to a quote from Tom Sawyer (ever read Huckleberry Finn?):

"Faith is believing what you know ain't true"

Exactly my point!!

I much prefer Reformationists assertion that faith in God is provided by God through grace. (Although more disturbingly it seems to mean that God has decided to damn me. I can't choose God's grace, God has to choose me).

I understand but, if it is any comfort to you, the only way that will actually make a difference to you is if you desire to be a child of God. If you live the rest of your life believing that God is nothing more than a made up figure, what would it really matter if He were truly the Creator and Ruler of the all things created? If you truly desire to be a child of God then that is a mark of election. What I can encourage you to do is continue asking questions and searching. If it be His will to bring you to faith, nothing you can ask will stand against His internal call. Once He calls you, you will sooner be able to deny your own existance than His.

May the Lord bless you with faith such that you can only be humbled by His love for you.

God bless

 

[fatpie42]

You might say that his theology was dodgy, and I won’t argue that they (Hitler, his minions, and those who taught them that theology) were a different bible to the literal sense. However, the only thing he took of Christianity was the name.

That is an excuse. "Oh he believed in Christianity and accepted Jesus as his saviour, but he was just saying the 'words', he didn't really mean them in the way a REAL Christian would!"

Great, so no one is really a Christian unless a REAL Christian says so. This seems to make 'being a Christian' hideously arbitrary.

Like I said, you might not consider him a 'genuine Christian', but he does worship God in a very Christian way. Hitler was a Christian. Whether there was something wrong with his interpretation of scripture is an entierely different matter.