God doesn't like me

[Reformationist]

That is an excuse. "Oh he believed in Christianity and accepted Jesus as his saviour, but he was just saying the 'words', he didn't really mean them in the way a REAL Christian would!"

Great, so no one is really a Christian unless a REAL Christian says so. This seems to make 'being a Christian' hideously arbitrary.

Like I said, you might not consider him a 'genuine Christian', but he does worship God in a very Christian way. Hitler was a Christian. Whether there was something wrong with his interpretation of scripture is an entierely different matter.

Fatpie, with regard to the issue of whether Hitler was a Christian, you seem like you're interested only in arguing. Who better than a Christian to tell you whether Hitler was a Christian? Also, what was it about his style of worship that prompts you to claim that He worshipped God in a "very Christian way?" This isn't about his interpretation of Scripture. It's about determining the validity of the claim. In James 2 we are explicitly told that our claim of faith is justifed by our works. Regardless of what you think of the rationale behind being a Christian, do you honestly contend that Hitler's works mark him as a follower of God?

 

[matthewgoh]

You are actually telling me that the first step of our Christian walk, and the way you encourage non-believers to start believing in Christ, is nothing more than telling them to arbitrarily make the claim that they believe in Christ??

OK I see your point, which I have no right to comment. I think we should just leave it here. Sorry if I am in the wrong thread. Thank you for your time and thank you for sharing. God bless.

 

[fatpie42]

Fatpie, with regard to the issue of whether Hitler was a Christian, you seem like you're interested only in arguing. Who better than a Christian to tell you whether Hitler was a Christian? Also, what was it about his style of worship that prompts you to claim that He worshipped God in a "very Christian way?" This isn't about his interpretation of Scripture. It's about determining the validity of the claim. In James 2 we are explicitly told that our claim of faith is justifed by our works. Regardless of what you think of the rationale behind being a Christian, do you honestly contend that Hitler's works mark him as a follower of God?

No, this isn't about his claim to faith. This is about his claim to his religion. He fully believed he was Christian and he worshipped God. What God was he worshipping if not the Christian one? Whether he had the right beliefs and acted in a Christian way is an entirely different issue.

You said:

For purposes of the discussion, I'll state it now. By worshipping God we can know what is good and bad. How's that?

The example of Hitler proves this wrong.

Hitler was neither a Christian nor did He worship God

While I might accept the first part presuming you are talking about 'genuine Christianity' and not simply 'accepting Jesus as your saviour', but I don't see how I can let you get away with the latter.

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.”
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial]( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )[/FONT]

Hitler believed that his moral ideas were based firmly on Christian principles. He worshipped the Christian God. What God would think about the whole thing is an entirely different matter. Hitler worshipped God and was not shown that his moral ideas were wrong by doing so.

 

[dvd_holc]

That is an excuse. "Oh he believed in Christianity and accepted Jesus as his saviour, but he was just saying the 'words', he didn't really mean them in the way a REAL Christian would!"

Great, so no one is really a Christian unless a REAL Christian says so. This seems to make 'being a Christian' hideously arbitrary.

Like I said, you might not consider him a 'genuine Christian', but he does worship God in a very Christian way. Hitler was a Christian. Whether there was something wrong with his interpretation of scripture is an entierely different matter.

The final authority is God. And, those who are for Christ want love for humanity because of God's love...and for anyone to wants less than that...is to less what Jesus wanted. Finally, you can't get past the name...you point is not to get to know Christ but to allow yourself not to be a Christian...

 

[fatpie42]

The final authority is God. And, those who are for Christ want love for humanity because of God's love...and for anyone to wants less than that...is to less what Jesus wanted. Finally, you can't get past the name...you point is not to get to know Christ but to allow yourself not to be a Christian...

No, my point here is that non-Christians aren't amoral nihilists and just confessing Christ as your saviour does not give you an insight into right and wrong which no one else has.

That is my point.

 

[Reformationist]

No, this isn't about his claim to faith. This is about his claim to his religion.

This is a distinction without a difference. We engage in our religion on the basis of our faith.

He fully believed he was Christian and he worshipped God.

Again I ask, in what way did he worship God that leads you to believe he was a Christian?

What God was he worshipping if not the Christian one?

Couldn't say. I have heard numerous claims that he was involved in the occult.

Whether he had the right beliefs and acted in a Christian way is an entirely different issue.

And here is the point which you seem to so adamantly wish to ignore. Our claims, whether they are religious in nature or not, are shown to be true, or false, by our works. If someone tells you they love you and then proceeds to act in a hateful manner toward you, would you consider their claim of loving you to be valid simply because they said it was?

You said:

The example of Hitler proves this wrong.

Are you actually contending that Hitler was unaware that it was wrong in the eyes of God to murder people?

While I might accept the first part presuming you are talking about 'genuine Christianity' and not simply 'accepting Jesus as your saviour', but I don't see how I can let you get away with the latter.

Fatpie, the problem is that you feel that you can separate "accepting Christ as your Savior" from "genuine Christianity." You cannot. If you accept Christ as your Savior you must also accept Him as your Lord. In doing so, you acknowledge His authority to bind your conscience and hold you accountable according to His Law. Christ never encouraged or condoned the unsanctioned killing of a single person, much less seven million people. What He did tell us was that we will know a person by his fruits, i.e., we will know whether they are truly a follower of God by whether their actions are indicative of a believer who has been born again by the power of the Almighty. Your incessant need to continue down this path of submitting that Hitler was a Christian simply because he said he was is growing monotonous. Either show some viable reasons for your conclusion or move on.

Hitler believed that his moral ideas were based firmly on Christian principles. He worshipped the Christian God. What God would think about the whole thing is an entirely different matter. Hitler worshipped God and was not shown that his moral ideas were wrong by doing so.

This is ridiculous. You say, "Hitler worshipped God" and "what God would think about the whole thing is an entirely different matter" as if the claims are compatible. The truth is, you sought to use the example of Hitler as a slight to Christianity and Christians and for someone as intellectually capable as you seem to be it comes off as spurious.

Have a good day.

 

[dvd_holc]

No, my point here is that non-Christians aren't amoral nihilists and just confessing Christ as your saviour does not give you an insight into right and wrong which no one else has.

That is my point.

If your point is as simple as that...Taking the name of Christ does not give you a insight of right and wrong more so than anyone...then that is true...for what can be said of just a speaking something...But the revelation of God is beyond the words of God which spilts the ways of man. All positive effects within the nature of humanity spring out of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Those who live outside of it cause death, disharmony, and hatred of the world. I am not seating here telling you this in a judgmental sense of what is right and wrong...but if you look back at your own life...when a person treated you in a way of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control then felt the goodness of life. But when a person treated you in less way...then you felt a injustice by that person...likewise others felt similar things by your own actions. If you can wrap your mind around that...not because I a Christian said it...but looking to see if this is true in the world...then you might begin to understand our way.

 

[fatpie42]

Are you actually contending that Hitler was unaware that it was wrong in the eyes of God to murder people?

Yes. (Of course he wouldn't consider the holocaust to be 'murder'. There is, after all, a difference between murder and killing.

Fatpie, the problem is that you feel that you can separate "accepting Christ as your Savior" from "genuine Christianity."

#

Well if you can't seperate those two, Hitler was DEFINITELY a Christian.

I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial]( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )[/FONT]

If you accept Christ as your Savior you must also accept Him as your Lord. In doing so, you acknowledge His authority to bind your conscience and hold you accountable according to His Law. Christ never encouraged or condoned the unsanctioned killing of a single person, much less seven million people.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

Naturally within this chapter it would probably make more sense to interpret this as a wish to fulfil prophecy by getting hold of swords so he appeared to be a 'transgressor'. However, it seems quite natural to interpret it to mean that sometimes we need to take up arms to fight for justice. After all, it might be argued that if we interpreted Jesus as saying 'never fight' Christians could never condone ANY war.

What He did tell us was that we will know a person by his fruits, i.e., we will know whether they are truly a follower of God by whether their actions are indicative of a believer who has been born again by the power of the Almighty. Your incessant need to continue down this path of submitting that Hitler was a Christian simply because he said he was is growing monotonous. Either show some viable reasons for your conclusion or move on.

So a Christian is incapable of sin then? Surely if you can only judge someone a Christian if they act in a certain way and worshipping tells them right from wrong, Christians should perform no bad actions?

If Christians are perfectly moral then I will accept that Hitler could not be a Chrisitan, but I don't think you would make such an ambitious claim.

This is ridiculous. You say, "Hitler worshipped God" and "what God would think about the whole thing is an entirely different matter" as if the claims are compatible. The truth is, you sought to use the example of Hitler as a slight to Christianity and Christians and for someone as intellectually capable as you seem to be it comes off as spurious.

I made no slight to Christianity. I am merely saying that worshipping God does not make you a moral expert. You, on the other hand, are insisting that Christians are morally perfect and cannot make any mistakes concerning morality. I am prepared to accept that Hitler's Christianity might have been a misunderstanding of Christian scripture, but I am not prepared to accept that he was not worshipping God. It is that kind of daft assertion which sets protestants and Catholics against each other, claiming that those on the other side are 'not true Christians'.

Christianity does not make you a moral expert. Worshipping God does not give you special access to knowledge of right and wrong. Hitler is an example of someone who believed in Christianity and thus he proves me right. Whether Hitler had good theology or not is another matter entirely.

 

[Reformationist]

Fatpie, it appears to me that you are here for nothing less than to simply argue. This forum is for questions by those who are actually seeking to understand Christianity. You have been repeatedly told that Hitler was not a Christian and, despite that, have insisted on forcing the point. Due to this, I have no further inclination or intention of discussing this matter any further with you. If, in the future, you should have genuine questions about tenents of the Christian faith, please feel free to ask.

Have a good day.

God bless

 

[fatpie42]

What was Hitler's religion then?

 

[Davis]

What was Hitler's religion then?

His own.
He was not a follower of Christs commands thats for sure.

Christ commanded us to love our neighbors. Its the second greatest commandment.
Hitler did not love his neighbors or his enemies.

 

[fatpie42]

His own.
He was not a follower of Christs commands thats for sure.

Christ commanded us to love our neighbors. Its the second greatest commandment.
Hitler did not love his neighbors or his enemies.

His own religion that just happened to involve choosing Jesus as his Lord and saviour?

It seems that whenever someone decides to believe something other than what another Christian believes they are not REALLY Christian.

He believes that legalising abortion shows compassion to the mother. He can't be a Christian then.

He believes he should be allowed to use contraception. Can't be Christian then!

He belongs to a different domination which believes ..... Can't be a Christian then!

He believes that the Jews murdered Christ and that they should be executed for it. Can't be a Christian then!


I am sure there are better ways of interpreting the Bible and that Christians should be good moral people, but not all Christians do understand the Bible perfectly and not all of them are perfectly moral people. It sounds almost as if your definition of a Christian is 'someone who keeps a certain moral standard' and 'someone who interprets the Bible in a certain way' as well as 'someone who accepts Christ as their saviour'.

On these grounds you can say of any Christian who becomes a kleptomaniac - oh well, he wasn't really a Christian. But this isn't judging them on their religious beliefs, but on their moral conduct. So when you said "worshipping God tells you right from wrong" is even more nonsense than I thought since you were actually saying "in order to be truly worshipping God you must already KNOW right from wrong".

 

[Davis]

What was that all about?
I answered your question and you go on a rant?

Those werent my answers but from Christ himself. He gave the commandment not me.
Hitler was not a christian. Plenty of cults claim that Christ is there savior but they sure do go against all of His commands.

Again a christian is a follower of Christ. Plain and simple. No, ands, ifs, or buts about it.

 

[Davis]

It sounds almost as if your definition of a Christian is 'someone who keeps a certain moral standard' and 'someone who interprets the Bible in a certain way' as well as 'someone who accepts Christ as their saviour'.

I never said that.
Again a christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.

 

[LilLamb219]

fatpie, I want to say that you have brought up some really good points concerning how some Christians view other Christians.

Being a Christian isn't about what WE do, but about Christ, especially his death on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins and our trust in that. Because of the Gospel, we want to follow God's ways, but because we are still in sinful bodies, we cannot fully do that. That's why we're grateful that our Savior filled the role completely for us.

No one but God can surely know the heart of any man to know if that man has faith in Christ. But by saying this we must also look to one's confession of faith to make an attempt to determine where one stands. We will never know with all certainty as there are many liars within the pews.

Looking to one's fruit might give us a clue as to whether that person is a false teacher or rejects Christ. But then again, there are signs of fruit that we cannot at all times view, so we might miss out on the real fruit because we're stuck looking at all the bad things. God does the pruning, not us. He trims away the bad parts of the plants and retains the good.

I won't say whether Hitler was Christian or not. That's NOT for me to say. But there is a Law/Gospel issue. If we come across someone who is sinning without remorse, we give that person the Law to condemn him in his sins and get him to see that he has done wrong. Then, we give that person the Gospel for comfort.

 

[Endurance]

The question is.........What is good? First, set the standard for good that one may rate all else by it. For example: a commonly asked question is, how are you or how was your day? What would one base this on as a matter of fact and not of opinion-meaning, not good or bad because one thinks so. Gods good is not humanities perception of good. realize that the world carries on against his will and none of it is of his design. What is therfore, good about it? Response?

 

[fatpie42]

The question is.........What is good?

Yes, I know. That is the question asked by meta-ethics and generally the answer "Good is that which God commands" doesn't work too well. It's called 'Divine Command Theory' and it is generally believed to be disproved by the Euthyphro problem (proposed by Socrates in a conversation with someone called Euthyphro).

I find Railton's meta-ethics to be best, but you might disagree. The fact is though that, Christian or not, (my lecturer was openly Christian) divine command theory doesn't work very well for deciding what good is.

First, set the standard for good that one may rate all else by it. For example: a commonly asked question is, how are you or how was your day? What would one base this on as a matter of fact and not of opinion-meaning, not good or bad because one thinks so.

If you read Wittgenstein's philosophy you will find that meanings are not a matter of 'what one thinks' but are a matter of a common agreement in usage between the people having a conversation. If my standard of goodness is different from yours then our whole conversation will have little or no meaning. 'Good' like all words, establishes its meaning through usage.

As for what good is objectively, I think you will get a better idea of what we mean by 'good' from looking into meta-ethics than you will by sitting in a room on your own praying to God. There is only one standard of meaning for the term good you will gain from sitting on your own, and that is the meaning you already had before you entered the room. Reading the Bible, I will accept, might change your view of what is good since reading is a kind of dialogue in itself. When your standard of goodness turns out to be different, in the 'good samaritan parable' for instance, you will reassess your idea of 'good' (and most likely for the better).

If God has a completely different standard of goodness that humanity cannot even comprehend, God must be describing a completely different concept. I don't think that is realistic to be honest.

Gods good is not humanities perception of good. realize that the world carries on against his will and none of it is of his design. What is therfore, good about it? Response?

So your belief as a Christian is that, even where things seem to be 'good', the world is an awful place? Isn't that rather a pessimistic view?

 

[Fares]

So, here's the deal. If I lived my life as I wanted, I couldn't get into heaven. Even if I want to live morally, and do so. Because even then, my life isn't good enough.

Define morally .

So answer, why isn't it good enough? Why are his standards so high for -his creation- that absolutely nobody passes?

They are not high at all . Gods ask little of you and gives you in return so much more . I am not talking about heaven . I am talking about a capacity of facing problems with a smile, no fear of death, better life and better understanding of the things surrounding you .

Which makes me think of another question.

If nobody is righteous, no not one, then what happened with the Jews before Christianity? If they couldn't make it into heaven with those rules (apparently nobody can, that's why Jesus is "so important"), then did they all go to hell, even though they were doing what God told them to?

What ? God will not judge you for something you ignore . Those who ignore the true identity or existence of Jesus Chrisit, Our Lord, will be judged on the good and bad they have done in this life . Therefore all those who know the identity of Jesus yet reject him will be judged severly . When you reject Jesus Christ, Jesus is the Word of God , the Word of God is God , therefore you reject God .

And if they went to heaven, they why is Jesus neccesary?

Jesus came to complete the Torah . He is the last step before armageddon and the ruling of God on earth . Jesus completed the way to God .

Some Christians say that those people in tribles in the jungles or men that live on mountains etc get judged on what they know, and how they live their life (which is a misinterpretation of the text)....then why bring in all this extra crap that I, and Atheist, cannot make myself believe? Why not just have the whole world know nothing, and (guess what) judge them on how they act? (that's kinda how we do it, judge people for what they do, and not who they know, and it's kinda working for us)

The prophet abraham had no religion . because he did not need a religion to guide him to God . We do . Their is only one way to God . Jesus is here to make sure you get there . Personnaly, I am not like Abraham, I can not find the way to God on my own, I need the teachings of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit .

And if you don't believe that (that people who've never heard of Jesus can get into heaven), then don't say anything about it. To me, those people are completely innocent, and there's nothing you can say to make me think your god is moral for giving them eternal punishment....just for being in the wrong place, wrong time.

I answered this part allready .
Do not listen to all christians, but to those who know the teachings of Jesus . Not all christians are actually followers of Jesus .


God bless you brother .
Have a good day .

 

[fatpie42]

Do not listen to all christians, but to those who know the teachings of Jesus . Not all christians are actually followers of Jesus .

Define "follower of Jesus" without resorting to quoting Bible verses or talking in cryptic theological jargon.

 

[Davis]

Define "follower of Jesus" without resorting to quoting Bible verses or talking in cryptic theological jargon.

Well the bible is where we get our teaching base from.
So if you can't except that than your not going to get the answer your looking for most likely.

I mean your basically asking for us christians to explain God without using Gods Word.
Moses received the Law from God and we too have the law written on our hearts because of Jesus Christ. He is our source. There is no other source but God. I pray that someday God will open up and put the truth plainly in front of your eyes. May God Bless you.

I suggest reading the last couple chapters of Job. Its pretty powerful. God basically shows us that He is far and above more powerfull then we are and that we can even imagine.