GOD didn't create evil - Founding teacher reference needed.

[dkbwarrior]

The Bible, being its own interpreter, does a better job of proving this principle of permission better than any Hebrew scholar. Learning what the Bible says has given me a new understanding of 1 Cor. 11:30. I simply interpret it with 1 Cor. 5:5. Same epistle by the same man. 1 Cor. 5:5 tells us God's method of judgment.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to get at. Good word here brother Troy.

Peace...

 

[victoryword]

Sorry I didn't get to it first! I was planning on doing it after I finished my last post but then my wife wanted me to go into the city with her for the day to do some after Christmas shopping, (in other words, she needed someone to hold her purse and her purchases while she was trying on stuff...)

I love my wife and I am happy to hold her purse anytime. It took precedence...lol...

Peace...

You henpecked men really annoy me. You let shopping with your wife take priority over....

Huh? What was that honey?

Uh, will get back to you guys later

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Sorry I didn't get to it first! I was planning on doing it after I finished my last post but then my wife wanted me to go into the city with her for the day to do some after Christmas shopping, (in other words, she needed someone to hold her purse and her purchases while she was trying on stuff...)

I love my wife and I am happy to hold her purse anytime. It took precedence...lol...

Peace...

You softie....(I'm the same way).

Happy wife, happy life.

 

[victoryword]

Although I'd never go toe to toe with Charles Capps, I offer these questions:


So Capps says he created PHYSICAL darkness.


Is 1 John 1:5 speaking of creating or nature of God?


This is a non-sequitur. God being light has nothing to do with Him CREATING darkness. What would follow is that the darkness would have no place in Him. Remember please, God does not create things from His own nature -- He doesn't take parts of Himself to make things -- rather He creates from NOTHING. Thus, God being light says NOTHING about what He can create.


Why? God creating from NOTHING has nothing to do with His nature... He's not pulling it from Himself.


To a point, I agree. As an absolute, we have a problem with Satan going to God in the book of Job. Can anyone explain how sinful and dark Satan got into Light's presence? (Scripturally, please.)



I agree and boil all this down to: God doesn't wield evil.


Now, I love Charles Capps teaching. So the above should not be seen as an attack "on our founding fathers" (oops, scratch the founding part; Capps wasn't). It simply is a set of questions because I'm not a pew potato. I do what our teachers tell us to do: "don't take my word for it! Check out the bible yourself!!" If need be, I could start a dozen threads in agreement with Charles. Met him once; he was an awesomely nice guy.

In a few more days I will be back home where I have access to a computer. I absolutely love my iPad but it is find not the best tool for debates, especially when looking up Scripture.

That being said, let me touch on your objections of the late great man of God, Charles Capps.

1. You can only create what is inside you. Jesus told us that what is in a person comes out of him (Matt. 15). That is we are told that certain things do NOT come from God (1 Jn 2:15-16; James 1:17; 3:?). It is impossible to create what is not in you.

2. Satan has (or had) a right to come into God's presence because he is the present ruler of this world and remains accountable to God for what happens here. In Job God meets with His council of angels regularly and they give a report of what is going on in their assigned areas. Satan uses the opportunity to accuse men before God. I can provide Bible proof of this later.

3. I think Capps is as much a "founding father" as Copeland. Could be wrong. At least in the mid-80s when I first came into the movement the "big shots" of the movement was Hagin, Price, Copeland, Savelle, Hickey, Capps, and Roy Hicks. Heck, knew nothing about Kenyon until the late 80s (then bought all of his books to my wife's frustration - we weren't all that "prosperous" back then). So I would think that Capps can be a founding father.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

In a few more days I will be back home where I have access to a computer. I absolutely love my iPad but it is find not the best tool for debates, especially when looking up Scripture.

That being said, let me touch on your objections of the late great man of God, Charles Capps.

1. You can only create what is inside you. Jesus told us that what is in a person comes out of him (Matt. 15). That is we are told that certain things do NOT come from God (1 Jn 2:15-16; James 1:17; 3:?). It is impossible to create what is not in you.

Wow, that that does utter violence to "God created from nothing."

Do you ascribe to ex nihilo?

2. Satan has (or had) a right to come into God's presence because he is the present ruler of this world and remains accountable to God for what happens here. In Job God meets with His council of angels regularly and they give a report of what is going on in their assigned areas. Satan uses the opportunity to accuse men before God. I can provide Bible proof of this later.

This would be MY answer. Capps says that Darkness can't be with Light. He says "there can be no darkness.

Your not answering the question. You're agreeing with it!

3. I think Capps is as much a "founding father" as Copeland. Could be wrong. At least in the mid-80s when I first came into the movement the "big shots" of the movement was Hagin, Price, Copeland, Savelle, Hickey, Capps, and Roy Hicks. Heck, knew nothing about Kenyon until the late 80s (then bought all of his books to my wife's frustration - we weren't all that "prosperous" back then). So I would think that Capps can be a founding father.

I would hardly put the preachers of the eighties as "founding."

No we're looking more to the sixties or earlier: Hagin (and Kenyon), Roberts, Sumrall, and others of this era. Not the eighties. Word of Faith was in full swing by the eighties.

 

[victoryword]

Wow, that that does utter violence to "God created from nothing."

Do you ascribe to ex nihilo?


This would be MY answer. Capps says that Darkness can't be with Light. He says "there can be no darkness.

Your not answering the question. You're agreeing with it!



I would hardly put the preachers of the eighties as "founding."

No we're looking more to the sixties or earlier: Hagin (and Kenyon), Roberts, Sumrall, and others of this era. Not the eighties. Word of Faith was in full swing by the eighties.

1. Yes, I Subscribe to ex nihilo. But just to throw a monkey wrench in there, I also subscribe to the Genesis 1:1-2 gap.

Unsure why this should pose a problem. The Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) first planned and designed what they would bring about before they brought it into actual existence. Don't you believe that God has thoughts and plans? The Bible certainly teaches this to be a fact.

2. Perhaps you missed Capps' point. Satan was not created dark. As a matter of fact he was "Lucifer" which means light bearer. Capps point is, like mine, based on 1 John 1:5 in which darkness is being used synonymously for evil. When Lucifer left the truth-light, he made himself evil. He became the father of all that is evil. But this does not mean that he cannot present himself among the heavenly council in his angelic body.

3. Um, I reluctantly concede this point, though my ego (which God is still working on) makes me want to dispute you, even though you have made a valid point.

 

[now faith]

Bob, still will fight alongside you against heresy hunters. Love ya' bro.
But Copeland does not agree with you (yes, I had to get that shot in )

Bless God ! Thank you all for your showing brotherly love through these last post.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

1. Yes, I Subscribe to ex nihilo. But just to throw a monkey wrench in there, I also subscribe to the Genesis 1:1-2 gap.

Unsure why this should pose a problem. The Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) first planned and designed what they would bring about before they brought it into actual existence. Don't you believe that God has thoughts and plans? The Bible certainly teaches this to be a fact.

The Gap Theory does nothing to answer ex nihilo.

If I plan to build a chair I don't have a chair yet. God, after any plans, created: out of nothing, not from within Himself. There simply is no scriptural support to say that God couldn't create evil. And since there is a verse that says He did, it takes minor gymnastics to get out of it.

2. Perhaps you missed Capps' point. Satan was not created dark. As a matter of fact he was "Lucifer" which means light bearer. Capps point is, like mine, based on 1 John 1:5 in which darkness is being used synonymously for evil. When Lucifer left the truth-light, he made himself evil. He became the father of all that is evil. But this does not mean that he cannot present himself among the heavenly council in his angelic body.

Well, this wasn't in the quote that I addressed. Regardless, Satan/Lucifer is not creative; we've covered this. Satan can distort, but the building blocks for the distortion and the possible path must be set by God. God created the ABILITY for sin to exist. Lucifer took that choice. Lucifer CHOSE to act in pride when God's principles said do not be prideful; God, as Copeland says, created the evil in so much as the reaping that Lucifer got was according to his sinful choice.

You saying that, for ANY reason, Satan can go into the presence of God invalidates your interpretation of Light having no Darkness in its presence.

David told us that if he went to Hell, that God would be there. Is there no Darkness in Hell?

Satan tempted Jesus. How did he get so close to God on earth?

Jesus took upon Himself sin, yes seven being made to be sin, in the cross. This alone invalidates the interpretation you put forth.

All scripture of this type is only saying that God is good; God has no 'bad' in Him; God doesn't wield the 'bad' (sickness, disease, hurt, etc.) on His children. That's it. Not that God can't look upon it, be in the same room as it, talk about it, etc.

 

[now faith]

The gap theory is a concocted means to reconcile or pacify those who want to insist the Earth is millions of years old.
If a person would take time to study geological evidence they would not need to reconcile the scientists ideals.

A huge flaw in the gap theory is that the scientific community refutes it as well as Christians.

As men of God we should not teach suppositions, we should stand on God's Word and only God's Word.

By teaching the Gap theory you can simply validate atheism in the scientific community.

A friend to the world is a enemy to God.

 

[now faith]

1. The Earth in Time and Space. Walter Veith.: http://youtu.be/4R5U5qlLh_8

Take time to watch this video and you will find that the creation account and the Flood indeed has scientific evidence.
The flood is the x factor when it comes to dating the Earth.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Perhaps you missed Capps' point. Satan was not created dark. As a matter of fact he was "Lucifer" which means light bearer. Capps point is, like mine, based on 1 John 1:5 in which darkness is being used synonymously for evil.

If I may say...

If Dark is BAD and darkness is the same as evil, then why did the Lord present himself as one who was dark on a couple of occasions?

Exodus 19:16
6 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.[c] 20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

Deuteronomy 4:11
You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness.


Deuteronomy 5:22
These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.


2 Samuel 22:11-13
11 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared[a] on the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
13 Out of the brightness of his presence
bolts of lightning blazed forth.

Psalm 18:9
He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet.

Psalm 97:2
Clouds and thick darkness surround him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.

1 Kings 8:11-13/2 Chronicles 6:1

11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple. 12 Then Solomon said, “The Lord has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud; 13 I have indeed built a magnificent temple for you, a place for you to dwell forever.”​

It never seemed like Darkness was automatically a negative thing for the Lord whenever he either described Himself or others described him

1. Yes, I Subscribe to ex nihilo. But just to throw a monkey wrench in there, I also subscribe to the Genesis 1:1-2 gap.

Unsure why this should pose a problem. The Godhead (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) first planned and designed what they would bring about before they brought it into actual existence. Don't you believe that God has thoughts and plans? The Bible certainly teaches this to be a fact.

I do think there are a lot of merits to the concept of Gap Theory (even though I am an Old Earth Creationist) and it makes sense that other things were made long before the Earth was formed - and there was more going on before Adam/Eve hit the sin. The angels were said to be in existence the day the world/men were made (Job 38:5-7) - although Gap Theory has been critiqued and there are some worthy considerations with it that have to be taken into account. I still wonder how the Earth could be made by God as formless/dark if that was God's original intention

 

[dkbwarrior]

The gap theory is a concocted means to reconcile or pacify those who want to insist the Earth is millions of years old.
If a person would take time to study geological evidence they would not need to reconcile the scientists ideals.

A huge flaw in the gap theory is that the scientific community refutes it as well as Christians.

As men of God we should not teach suppositions, we should stand on God's Word and only God's Word.

By teaching the Gap theory you can simply validate atheism in the scientific community.

A friend to the world is a enemy to God.

Maybe we have different definitions of the GAP theory of creation? Kenneth Hagin held to this belief as does Kenneth Copeland, Billye Brim and a host of other WOF. I myself hold to it. It is the primary belief in WOF circles. Of course, that doesn't make it true, BUT, I don't think you can dismiss it quite this easily... This subject really needs a thread of its own. Too much going on in this one already.

Peace...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Maybe we have different definitions of the GAP theory of creation? Kenneth Hagin held to this belief as does Kenneth Copeland, Billye Brim and a host of other WOF. I myself hold to it. It is the primary belief in WOF circles. Of course, that doesn't make it true, BUT, I don't think you can dismiss it quite this easily... This subject really needs a thread of its own. Too much going on in this one already.

Peace...

I started to create a thread, but my wife called me to go to Home Depot. I'll try to start one if you don't beat me to it.

 

[dkbwarrior]

I started to create a thread, but my wife called me to go to Home Depot. I'll try to start one if you don't beat me to it.

I got it...

Cant keep the wife waiting...lol...

Peace...

 

[victoryword]

I wear the pants in my family. Of course, she dictates the style, color, etc.

 

[now faith]

Oh yes I received a 50 dollar gift card,but I simply do not know how they continue to make tools more and more attractive!
I spent 300.00
And they helped..

 

[now faith]

Maybe we have different definitions of the GAP theory of creation? Kenneth Hagin held to this belief as does Kenneth Copeland, Billye Brim and a host of other WOF. I myself hold to it. It is the primary belief in WOF circles. Of course, that doesn't make it true, BUT, I don't think you can dismiss it quite this easily... This subject really needs a thread of its own. Too much going on in this one already.

Peace...

Well someone start teaching!

I have my own personal theory on the Genesis of mankind,but it is only theory.

As far as the Bible is concerned it teaches New Earth,due to reading the hard stuff the begets.

As a boy I remember skipping over the generation's not realizing in 40 years I would find them very important.

I would be interested to know more about the gap theory.

 

[Truthfrees]

Great article by Charles Capps. DKB can probably copy and paste Capps' comments on Isa. 45:7.

Charles Capps:Removing the Question Marks Releases Faith - The Christian Online Magazine

Has anyone read Charles Capps' teaching on this yet?

Ya'll know that Capps and Copeland were very close

Yes. Here's some quotes of Capps in this article:

"Why did God permit it an evil spirit to come upon King Saul? Because Saul permitted it to happen. Don’t blame God, because He doesn’t have an evil spirit. "

"God had given man authority over the earth and by acting on his own will he disobeyed God. There is a great difference in what God permits and what he commits. But in the Old Testament, the Hebrew mind didn’t see it that way. In their way of thinking, “If God permitted, he committed it” and they were not interested in secondary causes."

"What should we do when we find a scripture like this which is contrary to what we know about God and is inconsistent with His character? The first thing we should do is go to the New Testament and read the Red Print. Jesus said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. We know that He only spoke what the Father told him to say (John 12:49). So, to find the absolute final authority of the matter, we should find out what Jesus said about it."

"Many have asked, “What about Isaiah 45:7, ‘I form the light, and create darkness’?” The truth is that God created the earth to rotate on its axis so that it is dark on the other side of the earth and light on this side, but He did not create evil darkness. How do we know that he didn’t? I John 1:5 reveals that “God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all”. Since God is light, how could He create darkness? We know that darkness is the absence of light. To create darkness God would have to put Himself out. Where the ultimate light source exists there can be no darkness. Isaiah 45:7 also says, “I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these [things]”."

"In Genesis 1:31, God saw everything that He had made, and it was very good revealing that He made nothing evil."

"God didn’t create evil, but He had to allow it because man joined up with it when he sinned."

 

[Truthfrees]

More of what Hagin taught on this can be found in his popular book, "Redeemed from Poverty, Sickness, Spiritual Death". See pages 17, 18. Still on travel and having trouble with copy and paste. Here is a text link to the book:

https://archive.org/stream/Redeemed...ness-And-Spiritual-Death-1-eBook-PDF_djvu.txt

Thanks VW.

From section 17 of Hagin's words:
"Isaiah 45:7 reads, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Does God create evil? No. That would make God a devil. God may permit evil, but He does not create it. "

Re Amos 3:6 Hagin says:
"If God commits evil, then He has no right whatsoever to judge man for sinning. But God has not done evil; He only permits evil. There is a vast difference between commission and permission."

The last Hagin quote from section 17:

"The original Hebrew of these Scriptures was in the permissive tense, but because the English language has no corresponding permissive tense, the verbs were translated in the causative. No, God does not send plagues and sickness upon His people as these verses seem to indicate. God's Word does not teach that these things come directly from God. When God's people broke His commandments, they no longer were under His divine protection. All He could do was permit the devil to bring those afflictions upon them. Their sin and wrongdoing brought those dreadful plagues upon them."

 

[Truthfrees]

Perhaps this recent link can help edify.

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Yes, I saw this link when Troy posted it; however, I don't see it as being quite the slam dunk that you imply Bob. First off, Copeland defines evil as being the punishment for sin, not sin itself; and secondly he qualifies it by saying that only "... in the sense" that God created the law of sowing and reaping could He be said to have created evil (or, the punishment for sin). If we are talking about the creation of sin itself, Copeland specifically says that God did not create sin; rather, God created the law of sowing and reaping, which means you reap what you sow. In effect, one could say you create your own punishment, not God.

What is the purpose of the law anyway? Did God establish laws in order to hurt us? I don't think either of us believe that. God established laws to protect us, and to bless us. However, if we misuse those laws, violate them, then we reap bad consequences. I look at it like the law of gravity. The law of gravity was not created to kill people. It was created to hold things, including mankind, to the planet surface; and in a larger sense to hold the entire universe together. A result of walking off a cliff or throwing oneself off the pinnacle of the temple as satan tried to get Jesus to do, is a long fall and likely death. But that was never the purpose of the law of gravity. It is an unintended side effect of not respecting the law.

Peace...

That's exactly what I got out of it. Otherwise I would never have given the link. I am not sure how anyone gets the idea from that link that Copeland teaches That God created evil in the sense that He called it into existence.

Copeland's words:

"In the sense that God created the law of sowing and reaping, and under that law there are consequences to sin, He did.

Isaiah 45:7 states, “I make peace, and create evil.” The Hebrew word for create is bara and here it means "to bring about: bring into existence." The Hebrew word for evil is ra. It is never rendered sin, but evil (v. 7); calamity (Psalm 141:5); adversity (1 Samuel 10:19; Psalm 94:13; Ecclesiastes 7:14); grief (Nehemiah 2:10); sorrow (Genesis 44:29); trouble (Psalms 27:5, 41:1, 107:26); distress (Nehemiah 2:17); bad (Genesis 24:50, 31:24; Leviticus 27:10-14); affliction (Numbers 11:11; Zechariah 1:15); misery (Ecclesiastes 8:6); sore (Deuteronomy 6:22); noisome (Ezekiel 14:15, 21); hurt (Genesis 26:29); and wretchedness (Numbers 11:15).

The idea is that God has made the law of reaping, as well as the law of sowing, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble and distress will come as a result of sin (Galatians 6:7-8).

Ra is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap sin’s harvest, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law, and penalties for breaking the law will always be in force."

If we take even this part of KC's post:

"Evil and bad results will come when men sin."

This should be enough to prove KC isn't saying God created evil.

IOW, in the small KC post, the law of sowing and reaping is the ONLY way KC even remotely connects YHWH to the creation of evil.

Copeland isn't saying God created evil as a separate and distinct creation, like the plants, animals, man, etc.

KC is saying YHWH created a law, and man used that law to create evil.