GOD didn't create evil - Founding teacher reference needed.

[Truthfrees]

Quotes from all 3 of our founding teachers show that God didn't "Create" evil in the causative sense.

He allowed man to "create" evil via the law of sowing and reaping.

Disobedience to the Lord's commands "creates" evil.

Thanks VW for finding the links.

I don't know how you do it.

 

[victoryword]

Copeland's words:

"In the sense that God created the law of sowing and reaping, and under that law there are consequences to sin, He did.

Isaiah 45:7 states, “I make peace, and create evil.” The Hebrew word for create is bara and here it means "to bring about: bring into existence." The Hebrew word for evil is ra. It is never rendered sin, but evil (v. 7); calamity (Psalm 141:5); adversity (1 Samuel 10:19; Psalm 94:13; Ecclesiastes 7:14); grief (Nehemiah 2:10); sorrow (Genesis 44:29); trouble (Psalms 27:5, 41:1, 107:26); distress (Nehemiah 2:17); bad (Genesis 24:50, 31:24; Leviticus 27:10-14); affliction (Numbers 11:11; Zechariah 1:15); misery (Ecclesiastes 8:6); sore (Deuteronomy 6:22); noisome (Ezekiel 14:15, 21); hurt (Genesis 26:29); and wretchedness (Numbers 11:15).

The idea is that God has made the law of reaping, as well as the law of sowing, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble and distress will come as a result of sin (Galatians 6:7-8).

Ra is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap sin’s harvest, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law, and penalties for breaking the law will always be in force."

If we take even this part of KC's post:

"Evil and bad results will come when men sin."

This should be enough to prove KC isn't saying God created evil.

IOW, in the small KC post, the law of sowing and reaping is the ONLY way KC even remotely connects YHWH to the creation of evil.

Copeland isn't saying God created evil as a separate and distinct creation, like the plants, animals, man, etc.

KC is saying YHWH created a law, and man used that law to create evil.

Exactly

 

[victoryword]

If I may say...

If Dark is BAD and darkness is the same as evil, then why did the Lord present himself as one who was dark on a couple of occasions?

I will address this portion of your post without taking the time necessary to deal with the passages you quote.

The Scriptures teach that “light” and “good” are synonymous terms and “darkness” and “evil” are synonymous.

When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness. (Job 30:26)

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isa. 5:20).

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (John 3:19-20).​

God is Light and there is no darkness in Him at all – not even a smidge of evil.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.(James 1:17)​

Darkness is associated with Satan's kingdom:

To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. (Acts 26:18)

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Col. 1:12-13)​

This is why I can unequivocally declare that darkness and evil are synonymous. In light of these truths, any passages that speak of God as being in dark clouds and things of that nature are presenting a truth that needs to be studied without making God Himself the creator of darkness.

 

[victoryword]

Again, sorry for the intrusion. I stayed out while people looked for what hasn't been talked about much. But Kenneth Copeland actually dealt with the subject head on:

Did God create evil? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries

Q: Did God create evil?

A: In the sense that God created the law of sowing and reaping, and under that law there are consequences to sin, He did.

Isaiah 45:7 states, “I make peace, and create evil.” The Hebrew word for create is bara and here it means "to bring about: bring into existence." The Hebrew word for evil is ra. It is never rendered sin, but evil (v. 7); calamity (Psalm 141:5); adversity (1 Samuel 10:19; Psalm 94:13; Ecclesiastes 7:14); grief (Nehemiah 2:10); sorrow (Genesis 44:29); trouble (Psalms 27:5, 41:1, 107:26); distress (Nehemiah 2:17); bad (Genesis 24:50, 31:24; Leviticus 27:10-14); affliction (Numbers 11:11; Zechariah 1:15); misery (Ecclesiastes 8:6); sore (Deuteronomy 6:22); noisome (Ezekiel 14:15, 21); hurt (Genesis 26:29); and wretchedness (Numbers 11:15).

The idea is that God has made the law of reaping, as well as the law of sowing, and evil and bad results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble and distress will come as a result of sin (Galatians 6:7-8).

Ra is translated evil 430 times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If men sin and reap sin’s harvest, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law, and penalties for breaking the law will always be in force.​

Thanks for being so diligent about following the teachings of our founders and main WoF teachers. God bless you.

I don't know how many of you have and use the DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE but I decided to look up his notes on Isa. 45:7 and they seem to be an almost word for word match of Copeland's. Just found it interesting that Copeland seems to have quoted directly from Finis Dake's work on this subject.

Just wanted to note this for whatever its worth.

 

[Truthfrees]

I don't know how many of you have and use the DAKE'S ANNOTATED REFERENCE BIBLE but I decided to look up his notes on Isa. 45:7 and they seem to be an almost word for word match of Copeland's. Just found it interesting that Copeland seems to have quoted directly from Finis Dake's work on this subject.

Just wanted to note this for whatever its worth.

Are you able to copy and paste Dake's words, or give an on-line link?

I'm waiting for a reply back from kcm.org on what Kenneth meant.

It seems clear to me, but for others, maybe KCM can make it clearer.

I'm sure Kenneth wouldn't want people thinking he said God created evil.

 

[victoryword]

Are you able to copy and paste Dake's words, or give an on-line link?

I'm waiting for a reply back from kcm.org on what Kenneth meant.

It seems clear to me, but for others, maybe KCM can make it clearer.

I'm sure Kenneth wouldn't want people thinking he said God created evil.

It's too long for me to type but I can assure you it is pretty much word for word except that Copeland only quotes Dake on the part where he expounds on "I create evil". Dake actually deals with the whole of Isa. 45:7 starting "I create light".

When Dake expounds on God's statement, "I create darkness" Dake basically tells us that darkness is merely the absence of light and illustrates it by how the earth turns from the sun. If I had the Dake software then I could do a copy and paste but I only have the study Bible. Nothing that I could find online.

 

[Truthfrees]

It's too long for me to type but I can assure you it is pretty much word for word except that Copeland only quotes Dake on the part where he expounds on "I create evil". Dake actually deals with the whole of Isa. 45:7 starting "I create light".

When Dake expounds on God's statement, "I create darkness" Dake basically tells us that darkness is merely the absence of light and illustrates it by how the earth turns from the sun. If I had the Dake software then I could do a copy and paste but I only have the study Bible. Nothing that I could find online.

If I can get my hands on a Dake, where do I find these notes?

On the same page as Isaiah 45:7?

 

[victoryword]

It's on page 475 of the Dake Bible I have. However, just look up the notes on Isa. 45:7 and it will point you to the place where Dake gives his exegeiss.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

From "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth"



Black Hole Knowledge?



One verse of scripture us used more than any other to promote the “control” theory.

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

We need to read this verse in the context of what is being said.

Shadows Sometimes Silhouette the Object

Isaiah is setting up opposites. This is a common literary technique used by the authors of the Old Testament. In order to help us fully understand a principle, the author contrasts one aspect of the principle against another, thereby creating a more complete view of what is being said.

"I form the light, and create darkness..."

This is more than merely “opposites," rather it is more like the second thing is what you have in the "absence" of the first. There is darkness in the absence of light. There is chaos in the absence of order.


Genesis 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here light is created and as a result of the light, the dark is defined. I can create darkness too. I can walk in from of the sun and "create" shadow: "darkness."
Without the light, we would not know what the opposite "dark" was. In reality, darkness is merely the absence of light. It is created when light is covered. Darkness came as a result of light being made. You could read that verse as saying:

"I form the light and (by doing so) create (or define) darkness..."

One aspect is contrasted against the other and so you have a fuller understanding of what He is saying. We have to read the next half of the verse the same way.

"I make peace, and create evil..."

So what is the opposite of peace? I believe that “evil” in this context is just the absence of orderly peace. It is chaos. If you take away the orderly structure of a building, you end up with the chaos of that building falling down. Just as when you remove light, you end up with darkness, so too when you remove the orderliness of peace, you end up with the chaos and disaster. It is a matter of opposites and the second existing in the absence of the other.
What is defined by the absence of peace? The answer is found in some of the better translations:

Isa 45:7 (GW)
(7) I make light and create darkness.
I make blessings and create disasters.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Disasters come into being in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "blessings."

Isa 45:7 (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

“Calamity” exists in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "well being."

Isa 45:7 (Amplified Bible)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace [national well-being]
and I create [physical] evil (calamity);
I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

He "creates" physical evil/calamity in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) "peace/well being."

Isaiah 45:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

He creates "disaster" in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) of success. In these verses the meaning of "evil" is controlled and defined by the meaning of and absence of the positive things such as "light" and "peace." The words being used for "create" and "from" are even different Hebrew words, showing that the formation of the first items (light/peace) are the "things" actually "formed" by God, and the second items (darkness/calamity) are merely defined and are the result of the actualization of those first items.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Calamity is the absence of peace. And in this context, I think a better word than peace is actually “placid.” You can think of the chaos of a raging sea is the opposite of a placid one.

It is very much like how the law reveals sin.

As the NT says, without the law sin is not defined. But did God "create" sin? No, the light merely defines the sin, exposes it and shows us what sin is. I think Isa 45:7 is saying something very much like this. Without light, darkness cannot exist, be defined, or understood. Without peace, calamity ("evil") as the absence of peace, is not defined or understood.

 

[victoryword]

Dids, I got a paperback copy of your book last week and I am currently reading it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dids, I got a paperback copy of your book last week and I am currently reading it.

I look forward to any feedback you may offer.
You may notice the paperback version has much more content... including discussions on "chance," "accidents," "possibility," and "the course of nature."

Peace

C

 

[Truthfrees]

From "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth"



Black Hole Knowledge?



One verse of scripture us used more than any other to promote the “control” theory.

Isaiah 45:6-7
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

We need to read this verse in the context of what is being said.

Shadows Sometimes Silhouette the Object

Isaiah is setting up opposites. This is a common literary technique used by the authors of the Old Testament. In order to help us fully understand a principle, the author contrasts one aspect of the principle against another, thereby creating a more complete view of what is being said.

"I form the light, and create darkness..."

This is more than merely “opposites," rather it is more like the second thing is what you have in the "absence" of the first. There is darkness in the absence of light. There is chaos in the absence of order.


Genesis 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here light is created and as a result of the light, the dark is defined. I can create darkness too. I can walk in from of the sun and "create" shadow: "darkness."
Without the light, we would not know what the opposite "dark" was. In reality, darkness is merely the absence of light. It is created when light is covered. Darkness came as a result of light being made. You could read that verse as saying:

"I form the light and (by doing so) create (or define) darkness..."

One aspect is contrasted against the other and so you have a fuller understanding of what He is saying. We have to read the next half of the verse the same way.

"I make peace, and create evil..."

So what is the opposite of peace? I believe that “evil” in this context is just the absence of orderly peace. It is chaos. If you take away the orderly structure of a building, you end up with the chaos of that building falling down. Just as when you remove light, you end up with darkness, so too when you remove the orderliness of peace, you end up with the chaos and disaster. It is a matter of opposites and the second existing in the absence of the other.
What is defined by the absence of peace? The answer is found in some of the better translations:

Isa 45:7 (GW)
(7) I make light and create darkness.
I make blessings and create disasters.
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Disasters come into being in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "blessings."

Isa 45:7 (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

“Calamity” exists in the context that they are the opposite (or absence) of "well being."

Isa 45:7 (Amplified Bible)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace [national well-being]
and I create [physical] evil (calamity);
I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

He "creates" physical evil/calamity in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) "peace/well being."

Isaiah 45:7 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make success and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

He creates "disaster" in the context that it is the opposite (or absence) of success. In these verses the meaning of "evil" is controlled and defined by the meaning of and absence of the positive things such as "light" and "peace." The words being used for "create" and "from" are even different Hebrew words, showing that the formation of the first items (light/peace) are the "things" actually "formed" by God, and the second items (darkness/calamity) are merely defined and are the result of the actualization of those first items.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Calamity is the absence of peace. And in this context, I think a better word than peace is actually “placid.” You can think of the chaos of a raging sea is the opposite of a placid one.

It is very much like how the law reveals sin.

As the NT says, without the law sin is not defined. But did God "create" sin? No, the light merely defines the sin, exposes it and shows us what sin is. I think Isa 45:7 is saying something very much like this. Without light, darkness cannot exist, be defined, or understood. Without peace, calamity ("evil") as the absence of peace, is not defined or understood.

Great explanation Dids.