God Did not Create Sin

[dhh712]

If I may attempt to explain this in another way that may be easier for some to grasp.


God is beyond any attributes we can think of, every thing you mentioned is true but God is beyond any of that.

The greatest gift God gave us was free will. He could have given us life and made us slaves, but that would not be possible for God. there is no other way then to be JUST.

Free will is just that, very just really. We can do what ever we want. Good and bad.

But what makes some thing good or bad? What is sin? Why is sin bad?

In the perfect world we are in communion and in fellowship with God! That is GOOD, it is PURE. We achieve this by putting GOD first over our own desires. Again, pure and good!

When ever we put ourselves first over God, we break this harmony, this fellowship, that is not good, it is bad, that is sin. During this we are separated from God! Separation from God is very bad! We were made to be One with God!

By giving us free will God permits us to willingly separate ourselves from God, in hope of course we return.

Therefore all sin is simply a break of fellowship with God by placing our own wants and desires before God. That is the actual sin!

All sin separates us from God and is bad, though there are different types of sins that result in different immediate consequences in our lives now. Obviously stealing candy is not as serious as being a serial killer. Each will produce different reactions and consequences here and now. But each separates us from God. God can not find delight in any form of sin, no matter how trivial it may be here and now. God simply can not be present at the moment we act out the sin. Not possible.

God did not create the evil or bad or sin. Free will is not evil or bad by itself. It's possible to have free will and do the right thing. But as children we stray to often.

Once you realize what sin is every thing makes more sense. Sin is simply the act of separation from God. We have given this separation the attribute of being bad, and evil because it is an act of placing ourselves over God.

Not sure if that helped or not

If you're still following this thread, I hope you can explain some things (or maybe someone else who is reading this can; I didn't wish to start a new topic since there is a thread on this already).

I'm having trouble understanding how sin and evil can exist in the first place since we know from God's word that He did not create any of this (or am I understanding that in the wrong way). If that is the correct understanding then, and that God created everything, then how can it be that sin and evil can exist if they are not from God?

I think I can understand from the very first post that God's actions can assume some form of evil since He clearly describes sending evil upon a multitude of situations in the old testament. Or maybe it is better described that He *uses* the evil. So maybe I am just questioning the sin part (or maybe I do not even have the evil part understood correctly yet). If nothing can exist outside of God, then how is it that sin is a separation from God? Would it not mean that separation from God means not existing?

I just don't know how to explain things to unbelievers when I hear stuff said in response to things like "God created all things good", that "Well He also created plagues and sicknesses, (and all sorts of annoying, unpleasant things, etc.)". My immediate thought is that that is due to the entrance of sin into the world. But then the unbeliever can say then how is it they got there in the first place if it did not ultimately come from God. I don't know what to say to that except to agree, so in essence the bad things too come from God (which is unbiblical).

Is this just something we are not going to be able to understand given our limited minds? Is it just not revealed? Or do I have some sort of incorrect foundation in my thinking that it is possible to correct? (I'm in such a hurry I can't read through right now all the posts already on this thread, though I'll try to do that in piecemeal from time to time; I have such little time with my busy work-schedule and this has been a thought which has been on my mind for a while).

 

[OzSpen]

I'm having trouble understanding how sin and evil can exist in the first place since we know from God's word that He did not create any of this (or am I understanding that in the wrong way). If that is the correct understanding then, and that God created everything, then how can it be that sin and evil can exist if they are not from God?

For me, I find the simplest explanation is found in what God did with the first human beings according to Genesis 2:17,

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (ESV).

God gave human beings choice (free will). Where would we be without it?

In that choice, he gave human beings the free will to obey of disobey God. They chose to disobey with the sinful consequences that followed for the whole human race. And it infected our world.

Thus, God did not create the first sin but he created human beings with the free will to obey or disobey. The consequences of disobedience were that sin entered the world.

Yes, there are times when God intervenes with judgment (e.g. Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, etc).

God is absolutely good and his best plan for the world was to make human beings with free will to agree or disagree with Him and to give the opportunity to proclaim the Gospel.

But have a guess what? Judgment day is coming for all non-Christians and testing for rewards is coming for all Christians.

I'm looking forward to God's Parousia. I think many in Ukraine, Syria, Sudan, North Korea, China, etc are also looking for the same.

God is the ultimate 'winner'? Are you saved and do you love Him with all your being?

In Christ,
Oz

 

[dhh712]

For me, I find the simplest explanation is found in what God did with the first human beings according to Genesis 2:17,

God gave human beings choice (free will). Where would we be without it?

In that choice, he gave human beings the free will to obey of disobey God. They chose to disobey with the sinful consequences that followed for the whole human race. And it infected our world.

Thus, God did not create the first sin but he created human beings with the free will to obey or disobey. The consequences of disobedience were that sin entered the world.

I understand that part very clearly, yet where did the sin come from? Where did the consequences of disobedience come from? Is there something outside of God then? I think there might almost have to be if unbelievers are in eternity cut off from Christ. Or is that annihilationism? (Which I think is probably not biblical).

I know our disobedience to God's revealed will is what caused the entrance of sin into the world for we had the free will to obey God or to disobey Him. Yet that the consequence happened sounds like there is some force outside of God--which He has control over of course--yet that there is still some thing which exists outside of God, which He did not create. That is the part that I can't understand.

(Rationalizing it further makes it sounds as though free will in itself is a power separate from God--almost that this is the source of the sin, though now there is this force which is not from God existing of itself somehow. Yet obviously free will can't entirely be sinful all the time since when God condescends with the gift of faith to His chosen they come to Him of their own free will).

 

[OzSpen]

I understand that part very clearly, yet where did the sin come from? Where did the consequences of disobedience come from? Is there something outside of God then? I think there might almost have to be if unbelievers are in eternity cut off from Christ. Or is that annihilationism? (Which I think is probably not biblical).

I know our disobedience to God's revealed will is what caused the entrance of sin into the world for we had the free will to obey God or to disobey Him. Yet that the consequence happened sounds like there is some force outside of God--which He has control over of course--yet that there is still some thing which exists outside of God, which He did not create. That is the part that I can't understand.

(Rationalizing it further makes it sounds as though free will in itself is a power separate from God--almost that this is the source of the sin, though now there is this force which is not from God existing of itself somehow. Yet obviously free will can't entirely be sinful all the time since when God condescends with the gift of faith to His chosen they come to Him of their own free will).

I have to admit that you have posed what is a legitimate and penetrating question. I consider it one of the substantive difficulties in understanding the Fall into sin by two ‘good’ human beings. How could a ‘good’ human being Fall?

I’ve discussed free will, but how did it happen? God placed something in the constitution of the good first human beings that, in the purposes of God, would be used by human beings to trigger this first sin.

Theologian W G T Shedd put it this way:

The first sin of Adam was twofold : (a) Internal ; (J) External. The internal part of it was the originating and starting of a wrong inclination. The external part of it was the exertion of a wrong volition prompted by the wrong inclination. Adam first inclined to self instead of God, as the ultimate end. He became an idolater, and "worshipped and served the creature more than the creator," Rom. 1 : 25. Then, in order to gratify this new inclination, he reached forth his hand and ate of the forbidden fruit. " Our first parents fell into open disobedience, because already they were secretly corrupted ; for the evil act had never been done had not an evil inclination (voluntas) preceded it. And what is the origin of our evil inclination but pride? And what is pride but the craving for undue exaltation? And this is undue exaltation, when the soul
abandons Him to whom it ought to cleave as its end.

Shedd then added,

The internal part of Adam's first sin was the principal part of it. It was the real commencement of sin in man. It was the origination from nothing, of a sinful disposition in the human will. There was no previous sinful disposition to prompt it, or to produce it. When Adam inclined away from God to the creature, he exercised an act of pure self-determination. He began sinning by a real beginning, analogous to that by which matter begins to be from nothing. In endowing Adam with a mutable holiness, God made it possible, but not necessary, for Adam to originate a sinful inclination, and thereby expel a holy one. The finite will can fall from holiness to sin, if it is not " kept from falling " (Jude 24) by God's special grace, because it is finite. The finite is the mutable, by the very definition (Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, vol 2, pp. 169, 171).

But how did this sinful disposition become a part of Adam’s nature? I do not believe that God put the motives into the first human beings to lead them to sin because that would make God responsible for sin and, therefore, human beings would be exempt from guilt. Nor was God’s grace removed from Adam.
I don’t think this first sin was based on the power of choice as that would not explain how a good human being would make an ungodly choice.

I do not have a definitive explanation of how a depraved condition arose, but we know it did happen and the only explanation that is satisfactory for me is that the first human beings were given an internal mechanism that enabled them by free action to revolt against God.

Augustus Strong points in this direction:

Reason therefore, has no other recourse than to accept the Scripture doctrine that sin originated in man’s free act of revolt from God — the act of a will which, though inclined toward God, was not yet confirmed in virtue and was still capable of a contrary choice. The original possession of such power to the contrary seems to be the necessary condition of probation and moral development. Yet the exercise of this power in a sinful direction can never be explained upon grounds of reason, since sin is essentially unreason. It is an act of wicked arbitrariness, the only motive is the desire to depart from God and to render self-supreme (Systematic theology, Part 5, ch 1).

Thank you for your provocative and challenging question that has caused me to think more deeply of how the first sin originated. Reason cannot explain it. But it seems to have originated in the God-given freedom to human beings by which a person could – in the purposes of God – choose to continue with obedience to God or be in revolt against God.

It originated in the unseen human heart – the inner part of human beings – but it was an autonomous choice made by the human individual. Obviously, the first human beings were created by God with that potential.

Sincerely in Christ, Oz

 

[dhh712]

I have to admit that you have posed what is a legitimate and penetrating question. I consider it one of the substantive difficulties in understanding the Fall into sin by two ‘good’ human beings. How could a ‘good’ human being Fall?

I’ve discussed free will, but how did it happen? God placed something in the constitution of the good first human beings that, in the purposes of God, would be used by human beings to trigger this first sin.

Theologian W G T Shedd put it this way:
Shedd then added,
But how did this sinful disposition become a part of Adam’s nature? I do not believe that God put the motives into the first human beings to lead them to sin because that would make God responsible for sin and, therefore, human beings would be exempt from guilt. Nor was God’s grace removed from Adam.
I don’t think this first sin was based on the power of choice as that would not explain how a good human being would make an ungodly choice.

I do not have a definitive explanation of how a depraved condition arose, but we know it did happen and the only explanation that is satisfactory for me is that the first human beings were given an internal mechanism that enabled them by free action to revolt against God.

Augustus Strong points in this direction:

Thank you for your provocative and challenging question that has caused me to think more deeply of how the first sin originated. Reason cannot explain it. But it seems to have originated in the God-given freedom to human beings by which a person could – in the purposes of God – choose to continue with obedience to God or be in revolt against God.

It originated in the unseen human heart – the inner part of human beings – but it was an autonomous choice made by the human individual. Obviously, the first human beings were created by God with that potential.

Sincerely in Christ, Oz

Thank you. That actually helped to explain, as much as what can be explained, a lot. It was something I had suspected--that ultimately reason would not provide a satisfactory explanation for it and that which was said--that ultimately sin is unreason backs this idea up. I can only understand it fallibly as this: that God in His almighty power created something outside of Himself and this is what the human will if it so chooses can fall into if man chooses to disobey God rather to obey God. This is the nothingness, the vanity, of relying on self instead of the eternity which is only found in God.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Thank you. That actually helped to explain, as much as what can be explained, a lot. It was something I had suspected--that ultimately reason would not provide a satisfactory explanation for it and that which was said--that ultimately sin is unreason backs this idea up. I can only understand it fallibly as this: that God in His almighty power created something outside of Himself and this is what the human will if it so chooses can fall into if man chooses to disobey God rather to obey God. This is the nothingness, the vanity, of relying on self instead of the eternity which is only found in God.

I think you are missing one BIG piece of the puzzle.

Man with his own free will was not the source of sin. Only after Satan tempted Adam and Eve did sin enter the world.

In the next age there will be no evil or sin. Is that because our free will end, or is it because Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and we will no longer be able to be tempted?

 

[OzSpen]

I think you are missing one BIG piece of the puzzle.

Man with his own free will was not the source of sin. Only after Satan tempted Adam and Eve did sin enter the world.

In the next age there will be no evil or sin. Is that because our free will end, or is it because Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and we will no longer be able to be tempted?

We have a free will and supernatural power through the Holy Spirit to accept or reject temptation from Satan.

Oz

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

We have a free will and supernatural power through the Holy Spirit to accept or reject temptation from Satan.

Oz

How will Satan be able to tempt the saints while he is in the lake of fire?

 

[OzSpen]

How will Satan be able to tempt the saints while he is in the lake of fire?

I mentioned not a word about the lake of fire.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I mentioned not a word about the lake of fire.

I put one question in my post that you quoted and responded to. I assumed you were answering my question.

My question.
In the next age there will be no evil or sin. Is that because our free will end, or is it because Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and we will no longer be able to be tempted?

If you were not answering my question what part of my post where you addressing?

I guess that you agree it takes Satan to tempt man into sinning.

 

[NannaNae]

"which it had no conscious input "

Gen 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Gen 3:9
¶
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Gen 3:10
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Gen 3:11
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?



Adam and Eve did have plenty of 'conscious input..' from the Lord himself , everyday!
so you saying God himself didn't have enough instructions and input ,
I don't understand who exactly job is it to instruct God ?

 

[OzSpen]

I put one question in my post that you quoted and responded to. I assumed you were answering my question.

My question.
In the next age there will be no evil or sin. Is that because our free will end, or is it because Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and we will no longer be able to be tempted?

If you were not answering my question what part of my post where you addressing?

I guess that you agree it takes Satan to tempt man into sinning.

So do you agree that we have free will in this life?

As for the intermediate state and then heaven, I've haven't done enough searching of the Scriptures to arrive at a conclusion re free will, but it seems that since there is only one to serve - the Lord - then we will want be so sanctified that we will want always to do his will. And there is no sin in glory. What a place that will be!

Of course I agree that Satan is active in tempting people to sin in this world. That's biblical.

But for the Christian, it is possible to resist Satan: 'Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you' (James 4:7 ESV).

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

So do you agree that we have free will in this life?

As for the intermediate state and then heaven, I've haven't done enough searching of the Scriptures to arrive at a conclusion re free will, but it seems that since there is only one to serve - the Lord - then we will want be so sanctified that we will want always to do his will. And there is no sin in glory. What a place that will be!

Of course I agree that Satan is active in tempting people to sin in this world. That's biblical.

But for the Christian, it is possible to resist Satan: 'Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you' (James 4:7 ESV).

Certainly I believe we have free will in this life. Remember this though, scripture does say God created some for glory and some for destruction so I take that to mean some peoples nature is more likely to follow God/resist Satan than others.

Yes, Satan tempts but that is not my question. Do ALL sins originate with a temptation from Satan? The abscense of Satan would mean no temptation and therefore no sin even with the same nature of free will.

I also believe some are able to resist some of Satan's temptation even without being Christian.

 

[OzSpen]

Certainly I believe we have free will in this life. Remember this though, scripture does say God created some for glory and some for destruction so I take that to mean some peoples nature is more likely to follow God/resist Satan than others.

Yes, Satan tempts but that is not my question. Do ALL sins originate with a temptation from Satan? The abscense of Satan would mean no temptation and therefore no sin even with the same nature of free will.

I also believe some are able to resist some of Satan's temptation even without being Christian.

There is another factor while on this earth:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

 

[dhh712]

I think you are missing one BIG piece of the puzzle.

Man with his own free will was not the source of sin. Only after Satan tempted Adam and Eve did sin enter the world.

I'm aware that it seems that way (and that man's free will can certainly not be the source of sin; it is man's disobedience to God that brought sin into the world. He could have been tempted by Satan but chose to obey God. Instead he chose disobedience from what I think was reasoning out that there wasn't any apparent reason to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil--in other words, that God's commandments didn't make much sense to him). My question was where did sin originate first if God, as He in fact did, create everything and there is nothing that is a source outside of God. The fact is it is something which our limited minds can not comprehend.

There can be no denial, it seems, that sin did not exist before man disobeyed God of his own free will. Though free will can not be the source of sin since nothing can be the source of anything but God--yet of course God is not the author of sin to be sure (and it seems wrong to say He is the source of sin). That makes no logical sense, but like I must stress: the infinite God can not be contained within our limited minds and it is heretical to insinuate that God brought sin into the world because He most definitely did not.

Do ALL sins originate with a temptation from Satan? The abscense of Satan would mean no temptation and therefore no sin even with the same nature of free will.

I wonder that as well. It seems it goes back to where does the sin originate from? I can't come up with an answer; to say it originates from Satan implies that he has some power like unto God whereas he is merely something God created.

Certainly I believe we have free will in this life. Remember this though, scripture does say God created some for glory and some for destruction so I take that to mean some peoples nature is more likely to follow God/resist Satan than others.

The only ability man has to resist his evil nature is from God Himself. God created some for glory to manifest His glory on this earth. It is not their glory but His. Once sin entered the world, man's entire nature became corrupted. Only through God's blessing does the believer and unbeliever alike have anything that seems good in their lives, and they are restrained, by God's grace, from falling into the corruption that exists within themselves (even the good things are marred by sin however).

I also believe some are able to resist some of Satan's temptation even without being Christian.

I believe that it is not of their own ability however, that God has placed a restraining hold upon their hearts. All of us now live under God's reign. The terror that awaits those who are not His is that they will be cut off forever from His presence. Nothing good can come from a place where God does not exist.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

There is another factor while on this earth:

Nice to see you continue to avoid my question even after I highlighted it in red.

Do ALL sins originate with a temptation from Satan?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I'm aware that it seems that way (and that man's free will can certainly not be the source of sin; it is man's disobedience to God that brought sin into the world. He could have been tempted by Satan but chose to obey God.

Every "month", my wife would blame Eve for the womanly curse. My response was that if she or any other woman was in her place they would make the same choice. That is our nature, as in how we were made. We all have original sin, not because Adam sinned, but because if any of us were in the same place, we would make the same choice. It was still a choice. It still is a choice today, but our sinful nature sometimes prevails over God Spirit that helps us resist.

Instead he chose disobedience from what I think was reasoning out that there wasn't any apparent reason to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil--in other words, that God's commandments didn't make much sense to him).

There is no need to GUESS why Adam and Eve sinned. It is written in scripture and should be a lesson for us all. When we sin, we know it wrong, but it looks desirable.

Gen 3: When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

My question was where did sin originate first if God, as He in fact did, create everything and there is nothing that is a source outside of God. The fact is it is something which our limited minds can not comprehend.

There can be no denial, it seems, that sin did not exist before man disobeyed God of his own free will. Though free will can not be the source of sin since nothing can be the source of anything but God--yet of course God is not the author of sin to be sure (and it seems wrong to say He is the source of sin). That makes no logical sense, but like I must stress: the infinite God can not be contained within our limited minds and it is heretical to insinuate that God brought sin into the world because He most definitely did not.

Think about your question. It is not about what happened. It is about how and why. Recognize that this is a mighty quest. If you embark on entertaining such questions you better be up to the task. That means knowing the Bible. That means reading the WHOLE Bible.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

You acknowledge that God created everything. You can't acknowledge God created evil. Satan is the source of all evil. God did not create Satan evil but he made him weaker in spirit knowing that he would revolt against him.

Your whole question revolves around one false premise. It it the same false premise used in humanist arguments against the existence of an all powerful, loving God. Study Romans 9 to learn that God makes some for glory and some for destruction. Basically some are made stronger than others. Put simply, not everything God created is perfect, meaning the best it could possibly be. Look at my post 60.

I wonder that as well. It seems it goes back to where does the sin originate from? I can't come up with an answer; to say it originates from Satan implies that he has some power like unto God whereas he is merely something God created.

God uses angels to fight against demons that Satan uses in the spiritual battle for our souls.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

The only ability man has to resist his evil nature is from God Himself. God created some for glory to manifest His glory on this earth. It is not their glory but His. Once sin entered the world, man's entire nature became corrupted. Only through God's blessing does the believer and unbeliever alike have anything that seems good in their lives, and they are restrained, by God's grace, from falling into the corruption that exists within themselves (even the good things are marred by sin however).


I believe that it is not of their own ability however, that God has placed a restraining hold upon their hearts. All of us now live under God's reign. The terror that awaits those who are not His is that they will be cut off forever from His presence. Nothing good can come from a place where God does not exist.

Does God exist in any part in Gentiles, in people that do not know his word? Do you say that non-Christians can do no good?
Does your statement agree with Romans 2?

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

This is the hardest scripture for protestants to reconcile.

 

[OzSpen]

Nice to see you continue to avoid my question even after I highlighted it in red.

Do ALL sins originate with a temptation from Satan?

I avoided no such thing. I provided the answer at #74 by citing this Scripture:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

Your accusation against me is false. I provided the answer that a deceitful heart is also a cause of a human being's sinful actions.

I urge you to read carefully what I wrote. However, perhaps I assumed too much by quoting only the Scripture of Jer 17:9. I thought that that would tell you that there are more ways for sin to originate than only through Satan. The deceitful human heart is another problem that all of us have to deal with.

Oz

 

[Hismessenger]

Too many are looking at this topic with short sighted-ness. First, the creation was already fallen when man was brought on the scene compliments of Lucifer. He became the tempter to put God plan in motion. Christ was chosen to be the Savior before the foundations of the world were lain. Man's subsequent choice only served to fulfill the word of God about Jesus. Could they have decided differently and God's word be in error? The answer is no. Sin is a tool of the creation to regenerate mankind that God ordained before the creation was ever spoken into being. God is a God of eternity, not yesterday, today or tomorrow because they don't exist with him. It is forever and always I Am, NOW.

hismesenger

 

[14messenger]

It comes down to good or evil. One is good or one is evil.

One rejoices in goodness or one rejoices in evilness. It cannot be both.