God Did not Create Sin

Hismessenger · Nov 9, 2011

Pro 8:23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.

This verse tells us that he was there, before the earth was ever thought of. Before we ever took a breath or were formed from the earth.

hismessenger

James-49 · Nov 9, 2011

Hismessenger said:
This verse tells us that he was there, before the earth was ever thought of. Before we ever took a breath or were formed from the earth.

hismessenger

I agree, but what has that to do with my previous post? I stated I do not read where He was purposed as Saviour before the world was, but you said He was. All you've shown is that He was before all creation, and I agree, but you have not shown that He was purposed as Saviour.

Strong in Him · Nov 9, 2011

Girder of Loins said:
There have been many arguments on here concerning the origin of sin, and many come from the standpoint that God created sin. I would like to refute that.

First, we must realize the attributes of God. He is loving, merciful, just, righteous, jealous, and moral. All of these attributes, the few I have listed, He is perfect in. God is perfect, and so when the Bible clearly states that God is one of these things, it means He is perfect in them.

So, let me point out one of these attributes, justice. What is justice? According to dictionary.com, justice is: the administering of deserved punishment or reward. This definition denotes punishment. What is punishment? Once again, dictionary.com describes punishment as: a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.

So, we know God is just. We know justice is a punishment for an offense or wrongdoing. Now, you may see where this is going. God's attribute denotes a wrong side of things. By being just, who He is denotes evil(or a wrong side of things).

So, we know God's character denotes evil. Does this mean he is evil? No, this doesn't. It merely makes His character assume something. You can't have cold without hot. Hotness assumes a coldness.

God did not create evil. Did he create sin? Once again, no. We know God created Lucifer and(debatable) God gave angels free will. Now we know Lucifer cannot create anything. He can only destroy or deceive(manipulation). Lucifer manipulated the assumption of evil into a physical thing: sin.

Therefore, God did not create evil. His character assumed evil, which became sin through Lucifer's manipulation.

I agree that God did not create evil, but not that his character assumes, or denotes, evil.

Why?
God is Holy - more than that actually, he is Holy Holy Holy. Being holy, he could not have, or tolerate, sin in his presence or have a relationship with a sinful being. So Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden, mankind's relationship with God was broken and only restored through the death of the Lord Jesus.

God is also pure, he is light, and there is no darkness in him and he is love.
Being pure, how could he dream up and create evil?
Being love, which does not delight in evil (1 Cor 13:6) how could he think of, conceive, tolerate or create evil - and remember that God said that everything he had created was good.
Being light how could there be any darkness in him?

If God could assume, tolerate or denote (?) evil, then surely no sacrifice for sin would ever have needed to be made? No one would need, or have needed, to be purified when coming to God. Why bother if there is something in his character which can assume or tolerate evil?
The Israelites could have saved themselves several thousand sheep and cattle and the Lord Jesus would not have needed to have come.

So as the Lord is the complete opposite to evil, sin and impurity, I do not believe he could create it.

Paul Hunt · Nov 9, 2011

A couple of points if I may. You bring up a good and essential point. If everything God creates is good how can there be evil. God through the Bible does not say and it is called the great weakness of Christianity. For myself, it is involved in why we were created. Yes we are told it is to glorify God and enjoy and worship him, but it is more than that. God created us because he desires our companionship. Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend. and James 2: 23 Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called Gods friend. You see God desires friendship, not with robots, but with free thinking beings made in his image. Only given free will are we worthy of his friendship, but to give it he had to open himself to rejection. The test in the Garden was a real test and had the capacity to go either way.
On the chronology you imply in the creation. You proceed from a false assumption. To God there is no time, only now. God exists outside time and across time all at once. If you want, google Ray Steadman and time and eternity. A brief note from chapter nine- The thing we must remember in dealing with this matter of life beyond death is that when time ends, eternity begins. They are not the same, and we must not make them the same. Time means that we are locked into a pattern of chronological sequence which we are helpless to break. For example, all human beings sharing the same room will experience an earthquake together. While there are varying feelings and reactions, everyone will feel the earthquake at the same time. But in eternity events do not follow a sequential pattern. There is no past or future, only the present NOW. Within that NOW all events happen.
This is why God describes himself as The Great I AM to Moses.
God Bless Paul Hunt

Paul Hunt · Nov 9, 2011

Touch'e I agree.

God Bless Paul Hunt

Merlinius · Nov 9, 2011

Yes God did not create sin.

I'm new here, and maybe I've led a sheltered life, but does any person here think God actually did create sin?? I have a morbid curiosity to hear that person's rational hehe.

Paul Hunt · Nov 9, 2011

I don't have a problem with that. Sovereignty does not impel action. God set up the universe with one overriding quality. Actions have consequences. Most of the time he allows the consequences.

God Bless Paul Hunt

Hismessenger · Nov 10, 2011

You proceed from a false assumption. To God there is no time, only now

If you read my post again you will see that I said that Christ was there before there was a creation, that creation included time. Where Ray Steadman makes his mistake is where he says when time ends, eternity begins. The truth is eternity IS just as God is and there is no beginning or end. There is only the continuation of what already is, not was or will be.

hismessenger

Paul Hunt · Nov 10, 2011

I reread your post. Your position is that Adam did not have a choice because Christ was appointed our Savior before creation. My point, and Ray Steadmans and St. Augustines is that to God past, present, and future are all now outside of time. This invalidates any thought of before or after. You cannot think longitudinally where God is concerned. He invented time and can manipulate it as we do potters clay. The Garden was a real choice that could have gone either way. We are not marionettes on strings but creatures meant to be friends of God. Freedom of choice and the intelligence to exercise it are Gods greatest gift. I agree with you God and Christ knew the outcome beforehand but knowledge is a far cry from manipulation of the outcome. Incidentally, one of Gods greatest judgments against the fallen angels occurs in Revelations when God forces them out of heaven. Stop and think about that. God forces beings who have existed forever outside of time in heaven into time and to earth. From that point on they will wear time like a straitjacket. It is probably one of his worst punishments inflicted on them. We one the other hand will be freed from the constraints of time and will come to consider it one of Gods greatest blessings to us.

God Bless Paul hunt

Hismessenger · Nov 10, 2011

When I said before, I was talking about the creation. As you correctly said, God is a being of now. There is no yesterday or tomorrow. The word says he is from everlasting to everlasting but time is relevated to a dot in the eons of eternity. In the beginning God. The beginning of time, not eternity. Eternity is, was and will always be as far as our understanding.

hismessenger

Hismessenger · Nov 15, 2011

How is it that so many can not see that God doesn't allow anything because before we were ever made manifest, all the creation was done from beginning to end. We were not there to make any of the choices we choose but yet God planned them. For he did not manifest us to see what we would choose before the creation was wrought. Open your eyes and ears to the truth. What you want to call foreknowledge is actually God seeing each of us in his mind and deciding our purpose in Him for the word says this if you look. Then He created us to fulfill that purpose.

All things in the creation are for His purpose, including what we call the evil. He said that everything that he has done was very good. That is related to purpose, not morality, for he is above all in everything and all things will come to pass just as He ordained it.

hismessenger

holyrokker · Nov 18, 2011

Paul Hunt said:
I don't have a problem with that. Sovereignty does not impel action. God set up the universe with one overriding quality. Actions have consequences. Most of the time he allows the consequences.

God Bless Paul Hunt

I agree with you on this.

Girder of Loins · Nov 19, 2011

Hismessenger said:
How is it that so many can not see that God doesn't allow anything because before we were ever made manifest, all the creation was done from beginning to end. We were not there to make any of the choices we choose but yet God planned them. For he did not manifest us to see what we would choose before the creation was wrought. Open your eyes and ears to the truth. What you want to call foreknowledge is actually God seeing each of us in his mind and deciding our purpose in Him for the word says this if you look. Then He created us to fulfill that purpose.

Yes, God does have a will for us. But we can choose to disobey that will. This is the best way I have thought of it. If it makes absolutely no sense, I understand, I'm a confusing individual.

Think of God's will for this earth as an operating system. Now, to download an operating system onto a hard drive, you "section off" the hard drive. God's Will sections off the entire hard drive. Inside His will, He includes a command that allows programs to flow into another hard drive if they choose. This hard drive is sin(evil, or the absence of God).

God's will shall happen. All the prophecies needed a fullfiller, so God gave us Christ Jesus. He put people in His path to fulfill those prophecies, but those people came their through their own decisions. God can enact His sovereignty on us, and redirect the world to keep His will on track, but not everyone falls into His will. There are many ways God's will is met, but that doesn't mean everybody is on board.

Let us say that there is a man named Frank. Frank has put himself onto God's hardrive. He is fully committed. God has numbered His years for His will. God says,"Frank will die October 24." Now, there are many ways Frank could die. Ice could cause his car to spin off the road and he could go crashing off a cliff. A murderer could kill him. How he dies is up to God(if He chooses), and when he dies is up to God(if He chooses). It is all about God's will. God is perfect, so He can make those decisions, and keep a perfect balance between free will and His will.

All things in the creation are for His purpose, including what we call the evil. He said that everything that he has done was very good. That is related to purpose, not morality, for he is above all in everything and all things will come to pass just as He ordained it.

hismessenger[/quote]

Hismessenger · Nov 23, 2011

A question for all who don't believe that God's will permeates all things in this creation.
If Adam didn't choose as he did, where would Christ be if he was given to die for our salvation and there was no sin. There is no choice which we make that God doesn't have purpose in, whether it be good or evil. It must be so for him to be the controller of this creation which he is.

hismessenger

Girder of Loins · Nov 28, 2011

Hismessenger said:
A question for all who don't believe that God's will permeates all things in this creation.
If Adam didn't choose as he did, where would Christ be if he was given to die for our salvation and there was no sin. There is no choice which we make that God doesn't have purpose in, whether it be good or evil. It must be so for him to be the controller of this creation which he is.

hismessenger

So are you saying God controls us in every way, or does He allow free will? I'm confused on your opinion.

Hismessenger · Nov 29, 2011

I'm saying that this whole creation was created to glorify God and all things which he has ordained has and shall come to pass just as he willed them to be. Adam made a choice but it ultimately was in line with Christ being the salvation of the world. If there was truly free will, Adam could have chosen not to sin and then where would the word of God be. It cannot be voided, now can it?

hismessenger

Girder of Loins · Nov 29, 2011

Hismessenger said:
I'm saying that this whole creation was created to glorify God and all things which he has ordained has and shall come to pass just as he willed them to be. Adam made a choice but it ultimately was in line with Christ being the salvation of the world. If there was truly free will, Adam could have chosen not to sin and then where would the word of God be. It cannot be voided, now can it?

hismessenger

The Word of God, Christ as our Savior, all of that came as a result of Adam's choice. God had a plan for Adam, to live in perfect harmony with Him, but Adam screwed it up. He made a choice, and God then created a plan to readjust His creation. We have the choice to sin, otherwise no one sins. Sure, there is some stuff God controls, like Christ becoming our Savior. But He controls indirectly. He never physically moves a person, but He can control their decisions somewhat through suggestion or stimuli from nature or others. Judas was never picked out as Jesus' betrayer, but due to stimuli, he made the decision. One of the disciples was to betray Him, but Judas was never specifically picked. It was his choice to do so. You think Christ being our Savior was the end of God's plan, everything falls into line with that. Hate to break it to you, but Christ was never part of God's original plan.

Hismessenger · Nov 30, 2011

The question was, If Adam hadn't made the choice that he did, would Christ have been needed to be the savior of the world. You are still looking at it in terms of time. Christ was ordained from the foundation of the world. Before Adam ever took a breath to make his choice. So who is in control? God or man's choices?

hismessenger

Girder of Loins · Nov 30, 2011

Hismessenger said:
The question was, If Adam hadn't made the choice that he did, would Christ have been needed to be the savior of the world. You are still looking at it in terms of time. Christ was ordained from the foundation of the world. Before Adam ever took a breath to make his choice. So who is in control? God or man's choices?

hismessenger

Where is your Biblical proof Christ was elected before the Fall?

God and man are in control. Ultimately it is God, but His Sovereign will does not trump man's free will(which is God created). If He did not create us with free will, then we cannot worship. A computer program cannot worship its creator, the creator may think it does, but it doesn't. God is not delusional, nor a lunatic. He is rational and created us with rational thought. That means free will.

ThankGod · Nov 30, 2011

This site is awesome.

I believe God made everything. God did not intend on individuals sinning, but Adam and Eve sinned. I believe (know) that before we sinned, we were with God, and therefore all-knowing. And when we sinned (because we were in Adam), we chose to be separate from God, and therefore we lost our ability to know. Our eyes were then opened to the positives and negatives of life. And to get closer to God, we must see the positive.

All the glory goes to God. Seriously. This site is awesome.

God Did not Create Sin

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