God did not create evil.

[squint]

I'm really tired of people using the Isaiah & Job references to support God creating 'evil'. The word translates as calamity, not wickedness. Certainly God can cause ill fortune such as floods & houses falling on people, but nowhere in the Word do we see God actingly wickedly.

-A

God created "all things" so how do you propose to remove "evil" from "all things?"

Whether evil transpires directly from God's Direction or indirectly from "His" creating God is and remains fully IMPLICATED in the entirety of His creation... and ALL aspects of it, including evil. There is no way to extract God from what "exists" as He created what exists.

You may want to consider that God Is Great Enough to USE evil for good and in this way even EVIL serves His Purposes.

And please, there is absolutely NO question that God practiced retributive evil throughout the Old Testament AND that God Planned the execution of His Own Son, in advance, down to the LAST DETAIL.

Why should we have to put God on some pollyanna pedestal on these matters? He Is Great Enough to take away every working of EVIL as if it never existed.

 

[Idea]

I'm really tired of people using the Isaiah & Job references to support God creating 'evil'. The word translates as calamity, not wickedness. Certainly God can cause ill fortune such as floods & houses falling on people, but nowhere in the Word do we see God actingly wickedly.

-A

Satan would love to spread lies about who God is... Perhaps a few organizations would rather use fear to gain power...

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.


31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Doctrine and Covenants...

Interesting that free will was brought up. Either

1. God created everything including evil, no free will, predestination, etc.

2. God did not create everything (free will cannot be created - has to be self-existent... you cannot "force" someone to have free will, hense it cannot be created or it is not free will...) God is Loving, Merciful, Just, Perfect...

Do any others teach a pre-existence besides the LDS church? Just curious....

 

[squint]

Do any others teach a pre-existence besides the LDS church? Just curious....

All of mankind were taught by Paul to be God's offspring. (ref. Acts 17:23-29) All of Israel were taught by scriptures to be God's children. (ref. Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6) Whether they believe or not is irrelevant. If they do or did not believe they are/were temporarily blinded by the "god of this world." (ref. 2 Cor. 4:4)

In any case, IF those teachings are TRUE, and they ARE, then we came from God...meaning we existed in some form or fashion IN HIM...prior to our arrival here.

Jesus indicates this in His often misunderstood statements to Nicodemus in the night meeting, wherein He said that one must be "born again." It's in John 3. If you scroll down to verse 12 you'll see Jesus was talking about EARTHLY THINGS, yet Nicodemus had a hard time even figuring that simplicity out, as many do and will.

Since mankind are Gods offspring (of the Spirit) and born through a WATER SAC...we are all who are flesh and blood, born again when we arrive here.

I do not say that is the "same as" being called out of this world unto Him as a special calling. These called out ones have far greater battles to wage...most of them get to carry the greatest hatred available on planet earth to judgment in their bodies and minds which is from and of the devil.

 

[armothe]

God created "all things" so how do you propose to remove "evil" from "all things?".

The same way I remove the Dell 20" Flat Panel Monitor that I'm staring at from "all things".

-A

 

[squint]

The same way I remove the Dell 20" Flat Panel Monitor that I'm staring at from "all things".

-A

Sure, and God didn't provide everything that goes into that? lol

God can make anything and not be any "thing."

God cannot be logically ruled out of His Own creation and ALL the things that are "in it."

 

[armothe]

Sure, and God didn't provide everything that goes into that? lol

God can make anything and not be any "thing."

Providing doesn't infer creating. You know better.

Truth is, there are millions of things God didn't create but your 'all' theology won't allow you to admit it.

Rather, God was the architect of a very intricate and self-sustaining universe. God provided mankind the talent, ingenuity and resources for creating millions of things.
Explain how God created the clapping smiley ?

-A

 

[squint]

Providing doesn't infer creating. You know better.

This topic is generally known as ommission or commission. In any case IF God could intervene to HALT EVIL and doesn't, God is STILL implicated, no different than the passive observation of a crime.

Truth is, there are millions of things God didn't create but your 'all' theology won't allow you to admit it.

I am not willing from any scriptural perspective to try to eliminate God from His creation and God is not in need of my protection in these matters. No one can "quantifiably eliminate" God from any equation from a scriptural perspective.

Rather, God was the architect of a very intricate and self-sustaining universe.

If, as scriptures say, IN HIM we "all" live and move and have our being, that speaks for itself.

God provided mankind the talent, ingenuity and resources for creating millions of things.

Exactly the point my friend.

Explain how God created the clapping smiley
-A

The "only" reason people want "freewill" is so they can blame their fellow man and justify themselves.

enjoy!

squint

 

[armothe]

This topic is generally known as ommission or commission. In any case IF God could intervene to HALT EVIL and doesn't, God is STILL implicated, no different than the passive observation of a crime.

I had no idea that if you observed a crime and failed to act you were at fault (of the crime).

Exactly the point my friend.

Again, providing a resource does not equal create. By that logic the person who drove a dump truck full of soil rich in Bauxite created the Sears Tower.

-A

 

[squint]

I had no idea that if you observed a crime and failed to act you were at fault (of the crime).

I had no idea that God was incapable of creating a sinless, eviless world. Must not be great enuf to do that.

Again, providing a resource does not equal create. By that logic the person who drove a dump truck full of soil rich in Bauxite created the Sears Tower.

-A

Look, God Himself directed lying spirits, caused adultery, and murdered countless numbers of people including babies.

Now if that wasn't an implication of God in evil, don't really know what is or what book you're reading.

Anyone who bows to their own fairytales in these matters only serves his own idol, and GOD causes that blindness as well so there's probably nothing to do about it.

enjoy!

squint

 

[armothe]

Look, God Himself directed lying spirits, caused adultery, and murdered countless numbers of people including babies.

I've had this discussion with either you or someone else on these forums before. If you can come to terms that God practices wickedness and sinful behavior then so be it.

-A

 

[Idea]

God did not create Himself – therefore He did not create everything.

John1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If it was “made” it was made by Him, however, some things are not made – some things exist without a beginning, they are self-existent.

All of mankind were taught by Paul to be God's offspring. (ref. Acts 17:23-29) All of Israel were taught by scriptures to be God's children. (ref. Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6) Whether they believe or not is irrelevant. If they do or did not believe they are/were temporarily blinded by the "god of this world." (ref. 2 Cor. 4:4)

In any case, IF those teachings are TRUE, and they ARE, then we came from God...meaning we existed in some form or fashion IN HIM...prior to our arrival here.

Agreed! We are His children - and as such, are like Him - like Him, part of us exists without beginning...


8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isaiah 64:8

Again, the potter did not “create” the clay… it is only possible for the clay to become the creation through free agency…

He is the potter, the one who forms us, and so He is our Heavenly Father…
He organized intelligences into spirits, hence he is our spiritual Father.
We become spiritually begotten children through baptism.

Our relation to God - that we are His children – in this lies our potential for immortal eternal life – shows our nature, who we are, and who God is… eternal = no end and no beginning… “eternal” is not possible if there is a beginning.

“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be." - Lorenzo Snow

see the King Follett Sermon – immortal intelligence, relation of man to God.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion…
Genesis 1:26

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…
(Old Testament | Genesis 3:22)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82:6 (John 10:34)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature
2 Peter 1:4

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans 8:17

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Galatians 4:7

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:2

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things…
Revelation 21:7

It would not be possible for us to be like Him if we were not also self-existent.

 

[squint]

God did not create Himself – therefore He did not create everything.

God is not a "thing" and is therefore an "exception" to all "things."

John1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If it was “made” it was made by Him, however, some things are not made – some things exist without a beginning, they are self-existent.

God is THE ONLY exception to things. There are not "things" which made themselves, and even less made themselves "eternal."

Agreed! We are His children - and as such, are like Him - like Him, part of us exists without beginning...

I doubt very much that you accept that ALL mankind are Gods offspring (Acts 17:23-29)

Again, the potter did not “create” the clay… it is only possible for the clay to become the creation through free agency…

Where are you getting this nonsense?

IF God is The Potter He made both THE CLAY and THE POT.

You have this mystical "free agency" just popping up out of nowhere all on it's own? All I say as a believer is WHY? Is there some reason to DETACH GOD from His creation of all things?

What I ususally find at the end of the "freewill tunnel" is just another excuse to CONDEMN your fellow man.

He is the potter, the one who forms us, and so He is our Heavenly Father…
He organized intelligences into spirits, hence he is our spiritual Father.
We become spiritually begotten children through baptism.

Our relation to God - that we are His children – in this lies our potential for immortal eternal life – shows our nature, who we are, and who God is… eternal = no end and no beginning… “eternal” is not possible if there is a beginning.

“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be." - Lorenzo Snow

see the King Follett Sermon – immortal intelligence, relation of man to God.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion…
Genesis1:26

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…
(Old Testament | Genesis3:22)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms82:6 (John 10:34)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature
2 Peter1:4

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Romans8:17

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Galatians4:7

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John3:2

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things…
Revelation21:7

It would not be possible for us to be like Him if we were not also self-existent.

The moment you conceed that either GOD or THE DEVIL has interacted within the wills of ANY of mankind, your freewill (damnation OF your fellow man) is OFF THE TABLE.

And the fact that God worked EVIL on the earth is also far beyond any dispute. Retributive Divine Evil is written throughout the Old Testament.

 

[Idea]

yes, it comes down to free will.
You say we have no free will and blame God for creating evil.
I say we have free will, and blame ourselves - not God - for evil.

You are right - free will can condemn us. Free will can also set us free though.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John8:32

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Evil is not a "thing". It is the absence of Love. Whenever we choose other than God (Love), evil results.

God gave us free will to choose Him or not. He does not compel us to love Him without choice, which would not truly be love. He created us to be in loving relationship with Him.

Here is a quote from C. S. Lewis, I think from Mere Christianity:

Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -- of creatures that worked like machines -- would hardly be worth creating.

Mary

 

[squint]

yes, it comes down to free will.
You say we have no free will and blame God for creating evil.

You merely "use" freewill to "justify" yourself, condemn your fellow man and exonerate your God.

I say we have free will, and blame ourselves - not God - for evil.

As stated prior, God's use of retributive EVIL is a very well established FACT in the Old Testament.

You are right - free will can condemn us. Free will can also set us free though.

Odd. I thought Jesus set us free? Hey, has your freewill freed you from sin?

The whole thing about freewill is summed up as false WHEN you acknowledge the simple scriptural fact that both GOD and SATAN have access to the wills of MANKIND. At that point (if your supposed "freewill" can come to grips with "facts") there is no determinative way to say WHO'S WILL is really involved.

And if you claim that God LIVES in you, you already have at least TWO active will's transpiring, YOUR's being "sub"servient.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Evil is not a "thing". It is the absence of Love. Whenever we choose other than God (Love), evil results.

God gave us free will to choose Him or not. He does not compel us to love Him without choice, which would not truly be love. He created us to be in loving relationship with Him.

Here is a quote from C. S. Lewis, I think from Mere Christianity:



Mary

The automaton/robot argument is called an argument from exclusion of a number of alternative possibilities aka argument from excluded middle.

 

[Idea]

Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -- of creatures that worked like machines -- would hardly be worth creating.

Love that quote!

You merely "use" freewill to "justify" yourself, condemn your fellow man and exonerate your God.

You are leaving out the beautiful part of free will - There is no love, there is no selflessness, there is no charity, - without free will we are nothing but "things". "Being" requires free will.

You perhaps claim "lack of free will" to justify doing anything you want with no consequences...

The whole thing about freewill is summed up as false WHEN you acknowledge the simple scriptural fact that both GOD and SATAN have access to the wills of MANKIND.

they only have access if we allow them in. we are in control of who we allow in or not.

A teacher once taught me it is like we are all drowning in the ocean. Jesus throws us a rope to pull us out. He provides the rope, but cannot make us grab hold of it. We have to use our will to grab the rope, and allow Him to pull us out.

Faith without works is dead…


10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
(Old Testament | Psalms143:10)

 

[squint]

You are leaving out the beautiful part of free will - There is no love, there is no selflessness, there is no charity, - without free will we are nothing but "things". "Being" requires free will.

Being requires freewill? Don't recall seeing that one.

You perhaps claim "lack of free will" to justify doing anything you want with no consequences...

You might try response to specific critique sometime.

they only have access if we allow them in. we are in control of who we allow in or not.

All have sin and have sinned and "he who commits sin is of the devil" SO, access is clearly THERE and as such...drumroll...your supposed "freewill" is subject to NOT being free because of that access. In addition you have no way to PIN BLAME on other people's "freewill" when this 'fact' transpires.

Oh, and don't forget to address God's Obvious Working of RETRIBUTIVE EVIL in the Old Testament as well IF God does not "do EVIL."

 

[Idea]

All have sin and have sinned ...

A child who dies in the womb has not sinned. I know some would say “The highway to hell is paved with the skulls of unbaptized children”. I personally think there are more children in heaven than adults…

3 …. Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 18:3

There is a difference between “sin” and “transgression”. People who know better sin. People who do not know any better transgress.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:48

It is not a sin unless it is willfully done… If it is beyond your knowledge, or your power to stop, it is not your sin…

 

[squint]

A child who dies in the womb has not sinned. I know some would say “The highway to hell is paved with the skulls of unbaptized children”. I personally think there are more children in heaven than adults…

God in Christ does not "count sins" against mankind. It is therefore very unlikely that mankind will be burning alive in fire forever, yet alone children.

There is a difference between “sin” and “transgression”. People who know better sin. People who do not know any better transgress.

There is ample scriptural evidence that the devil works in mankind and mankind is therefore "enslaved" by that working. Jesus never came to condemn the slaves of sin, but to free them.

That's the trouble with "freewill." It see's only mankind when there are obviously more parties involved, and the adherents then go on to blame and accuse the slaves, which is slavery in and of itself, seeing as how all have sin and have sinned, whether by will or by transgression. All the will in the world will not free our bodies of flesh from the presence of indwelling sin. We were not promised sinless flesh.

I do believe God Is Great Enough to have created evil, use it, and discard it ALL and still have ALL of mankind come out just FINE on the other end of this gig.

enjoy!

squint