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God did not create evil.
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Hismessenger
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I believe that there is a acute lack of understanding of what it means to create. Heaven and earth are created things. Hell is a created place. EVIL is A created thing. All in the purpose of God. Evil is not in God but apart from Him, created by Him for His purpose. If the word says that all things were created by him and was nothing made that He did not create, do you say that the word of God is a lie, or do you rather admit that your finite mind cannot understand all the reasons for things to be as they are.
If you believe that God is a perfect God, then you must come to accept that the creation is something which He purposed before he ever spoke anything into existence. He said that all that He CREATED was GOOD. Did He not create the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. Man had no knowledge of what evil was when this occurred. So now think hard on what it means to be created. God said that heaven and earth would pass away before His word would fail. Heaven and earth are not in Him but created by Him just the same as the evil which many say He did not create.
God wrote the script and then provided us, the actors to play our roles in His script. That also includes Satan, the bad guy who was overcome before the world began in Christ. Read John 1 verses 1-5 and pray that God will grant you a deeper understanding that you be not included in verse 5.
Whether you want to believe it or not, accept the truth that God did create evil and it is GOOD for the purpose it was created for. To measure the righteousness of man.
hismessenger
If you believe that God is a perfect God, then you must come to accept that the creation is something which He purposed before he ever spoke anything into existence. He said that all that He CREATED was GOOD. Did He not create the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. Man had no knowledge of what evil was when this occurred. So now think hard on what it means to be created. God said that heaven and earth would pass away before His word would fail. Heaven and earth are not in Him but created by Him just the same as the evil which many say He did not create.
God wrote the script and then provided us, the actors to play our roles in His script. That also includes Satan, the bad guy who was overcome before the world began in Christ. Read John 1 verses 1-5 and pray that God will grant you a deeper understanding that you be not included in verse 5.
Whether you want to believe it or not, accept the truth that God did create evil and it is GOOD for the purpose it was created for. To measure the righteousness of man.
hismessenger
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holyrokker
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LOL - You're so certain, but you don't even know where the Bible speaks of it.
By the way - the verse you are refering to is Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things. (English Standard Version)
In the Hebrew text, the word is
The message is that God sets up kingdoms, and tears them down. God brings peace to kingdoms, or adversity. The passage is not teaching that God created evil.
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Kitangel
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permission to copy this explanation to another thread?LOL - You're so certain, but you don't even know where the Bible speaks of it.
By the way - the verse you are refering to is Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things. (English Standard Version)
In the Hebrew text, the word is{ra'} (translated as "calamity"). It can also be translated into English as affliction, trouble, adversity, naught: The context is in the prophecy of Cyrus. God is telling Cyrus (as of yet, unborn) that He will astablish Cyrus' kingdom for His own purpose.
The message is that God sets up kingdoms, and tears them down. God brings peace to kingdoms, or adversity. The passage is not teaching that God created evil.
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Kitangel
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By creating Good, ispo facto, Bad is created. God did create evil, by creating good. Think of it as a circle. whats in the circle is Good, and created by God. Automatically, whatever's outside the circle is bad.
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holyrokker
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Hismessenger
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If some one can show me something that the word ALL dosen't entail, then there would be no question that God didn't create evil. I don't believe that any can so I stand on the word. Stop trying to place finite limitations on an Infinite God. You are His creation, not his conscious understanding.
hismessenger
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Hagnismos
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That verse talks about how God deals with humans. I don't see in the context where it rises to answer the philosophical question of whether God literally created 'evil.' In fact it is quite true that god allowed the possibility for even by allowing free will but did not tempt Lucifer to rebel, or anyone who has followed him to do so.LOL - You're so certain, but you don't even know where the Bible speaks of it.
By the way - the verse you are refering to is Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things. (English Standard Version)
In the Hebrew text, the word is{ra'} (translated as "calamity"). It can also be translated into English as affliction, trouble, adversity, naught: The context is in the prophecy of Cyrus. God is telling Cyrus (as of yet, unborn) that He will astablish Cyrus' kingdom for His own purpose.
The message is that God sets up kingdoms, and tears them down. God brings peace to kingdoms, or adversity. The passage is not teaching that God created evil.
That God allows evil to touch some human lives is true and in His Sovereignty all things work together for the good of those who love the Lord.
Consider this verse and ponder free will.
'When a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, He causes even his enemies to be at peace with him.' Proverbs 16:7
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Hismessenger
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Recently came across older manuscript translations of John I. It is taken from the textus Receptus and this is what it said.
Seems there have been alot of changes made to the text to come up with;
I would say that coming into being covers a lot more ground in the understanding all things were made by Him. Since the debate is about whether God created Evil or it came into being of it's own accord.
It seems that it was changed to reflect someones finite understanding rather than believing in what the word truly is saying. God is sovereign. His thoughts are not our thoughts and therefore His reason for creating evil is above our understanding
hismessenger
Seems there have been alot of changes made to the text to come up with;
I would say that coming into being covers a lot more ground in the understanding all things were made by Him. Since the debate is about whether God created Evil or it came into being of it's own accord.
It seems that it was changed to reflect someones finite understanding rather than believing in what the word truly is saying. God is sovereign. His thoughts are not our thoughts and therefore His reason for creating evil is above our understanding
hismessenger
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Amos 3:5-6 (King James Version)
5Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:38 (King James Version)
38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Job 2:10 (King James Version)
10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You can understand how New Testament Christians might think that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Do these passages support the idea of a benevolent God? What kind of God do we worship, if we worship Him at all? Is it a God of our imagination, or something else?
The prayer lines are open 24/7. Don't be afraid to contact our High Priest, Jesus Christ, for more information.
5Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all?
6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Lamentations 3:38 (King James Version)
38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Job 2:10 (King James Version)
10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You can understand how New Testament Christians might think that the God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Do these passages support the idea of a benevolent God? What kind of God do we worship, if we worship Him at all? Is it a God of our imagination, or something else?
The prayer lines are open 24/7. Don't be afraid to contact our High Priest, Jesus Christ, for more information.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
Those passages support an almighty, soverigein God who answers to no man. Just because we see something that we perceive as evil doesn't mean that God is less of God for He Is GOD all by HImself.
hismessenger
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B
Benoni
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But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." [Matthew 6:33-34].
Take no thought-- literally, be not over-- anxious and unduly worried about the morrow, but realize that God has the whole in perfect control, and as we seek Him FIRST, He will take care of every need as it arises. "For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things." [Matthew 6:32]. Physically, mentally, spiritually-- every need shall be met as we seek first the kingdom of God, seek for HIS will and lordship in our life, that we might serve Him in accordance with His will for us.
Then comes this statement, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Ah, how men would like to word this differently. We prefer the kind of promise which reads, "And as thy days, so shall thy strength be." [Deuteronomy 33:25]. Or again, "My grace is sufficient for thee." [2 Corinthians 12:9]. Sufficient unto the day is the strength and grace thereof sounds real good. We like that! And this is true, praise God, but right now the Master is emphasizing that there is a quota of evil that is also sufficient for the day.
This word "evil" from the Greek word "kakai" which is the feminine form from "kakon," speaks of evil in the abstract sense, to cover all the generalized forms of evil in the world. Pressures, troubles, distresses, afflictions, injustice, corruption-- the whole influence of that which is evil in our day, all is included in this generalized term of evil.
Now we read, "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." [Romans 12:21]. Yet is it not true that there could be no form of this overcoming without the evil being there as an obstacle? How can one win in a hurdle-jumping race if there be no hurdles out on the race track? And so it is, God knows exactly how much evil to allow to come your way for your development as an overcomer. To be an overcomer you must have things which need to be overcome. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." [Revelation 21:7].
Perhaps once more we need to be reminded that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things." [1 Corinthians 8:6]. HE is the First Cause of all causes, and the initial Source of all things. This is He of whom it is written, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." [Isaiah 45:7]. And this is the same God spoken of in Ephesians 1:11, "He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."
"The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." [Proverbs 16:4]. And again, "I have created the waster to destroy (act wickedly, corrupt)." [Isaiah 54:16].
Our God takes the full responsibility, and we shall simply stand by and see what He will do with it, and wonder, and come to worship Him for all of His ways. Indeed, true worship is unreservedly approving from our heart all that God does, for we know that His way is the best way.
Some people wish that God had qualified His statement, to read, "I create physical evil," that is, earthquakes, famine, etc. But the full context of Isaiah 45 shows otherwise. Verse one speaks of Cyrus, "whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations." It was God who girded him for conquest, and sent him to WAR. But war is more than just a physical evil, it is the consequence of wrong doing, and results from sin, deceit, corruption, oppression, ambition, hatred, etc. And even the injecting of a godly man into a war to help clean up the mess doesn't erase the fact that war itself is an evil, and the results of evil.
"Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it ? Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret to His servants the prophets." [Amos 3:6-7]. Praise God, HE controls both ends, and He causes the evil to happen in one place, and tells the secret of it to His servant in another place, and then uses that servant to "stand by" in prayer and believing until a victory is wrought out of it all.
It is God Himself, and not an enemy, that has set good and evil before us, not for our injury but for our benefit, under the direction of perfect wisdom, that all the events of life must work together for the good of all.
WISDOM that is infinite, cares for each of us as if we were but one, and yet regards the whole as easily as if they were but one. One individual, or a whole universe, it matters not, His power is such that we all receive that personal attention as if we were the only one, and yet He deals with the whole with that same wonderful wisdom and power. When each individual is the object of infinite patience and boundless love, is watched over by an omniscient eye, and protected by an omnipotent arm, none can perish.
And remember this one solid fact: All evil must ultimately self-destruct, while all good is self-perpetuating. God has built an inherent law into each force, it is immutable and cannot be altered. All creation tells the story of how evil constantly destroys itself, and it is a survival of the fittest. Thus good continues to perpetuate and carry on, and ultimately shall triumph completely. Hallelujah!
Someone once wrote the statement, "whatever is, is right." This is absolutely true from God's position, even though it appears to be the opposite from the natural, earthly viewpoint.
We look at a certain situation and declare that it is "all wrong," and from man's viewpoint, under the restrictions and laws that govern us, it is wrong, and we shall be judged and dealt with according to our choice and action in the matter. Yet from God's viewpoint these things are "right," in that they are being used of Him in the divine interplay of good and evil, to work a development and maturity in us.
Thus we find that in one sense, the words right and wrong are quite relative, and also that they relate to some standard or rule. Usually it is all on man's side and viewpoint, for it was given to man for his processing and overcoming.
Yet certainly we must all agree that IN GOD there is no duality of right and wrong, for everything He IS, and DOES is RIGHT. His holiness and righteousness assure us of that, for His way is Perfect.
It is on man's realm that we find these contrasts, and then must use the right to overcome the wrong. Negative and positive, with their interaction, for this is apart of this present arrangement. To develop and train us, that we might be prepared for the higher realms in God.
Take no thought-- literally, be not over-- anxious and unduly worried about the morrow, but realize that God has the whole in perfect control, and as we seek Him FIRST, He will take care of every need as it arises. "For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things." [Matthew 6:32]. Physically, mentally, spiritually-- every need shall be met as we seek first the kingdom of God, seek for HIS will and lordship in our life, that we might serve Him in accordance with His will for us.
Then comes this statement, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Ah, how men would like to word this differently. We prefer the kind of promise which reads, "And as thy days, so shall thy strength be." [Deuteronomy 33:25]. Or again, "My grace is sufficient for thee." [2 Corinthians 12:9]. Sufficient unto the day is the strength and grace thereof sounds real good. We like that! And this is true, praise God, but right now the Master is emphasizing that there is a quota of evil that is also sufficient for the day.
This word "evil" from the Greek word "kakai" which is the feminine form from "kakon," speaks of evil in the abstract sense, to cover all the generalized forms of evil in the world. Pressures, troubles, distresses, afflictions, injustice, corruption-- the whole influence of that which is evil in our day, all is included in this generalized term of evil.
Now we read, "Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." [Romans 12:21]. Yet is it not true that there could be no form of this overcoming without the evil being there as an obstacle? How can one win in a hurdle-jumping race if there be no hurdles out on the race track? And so it is, God knows exactly how much evil to allow to come your way for your development as an overcomer. To be an overcomer you must have things which need to be overcome. "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son." [Revelation 21:7].
Perhaps once more we need to be reminded that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things." [1 Corinthians 8:6]. HE is the First Cause of all causes, and the initial Source of all things. This is He of whom it is written, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." [Isaiah 45:7]. And this is the same God spoken of in Ephesians 1:11, "He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."
"The Lord hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." [Proverbs 16:4]. And again, "I have created the waster to destroy (act wickedly, corrupt)." [Isaiah 54:16].
Our God takes the full responsibility, and we shall simply stand by and see what He will do with it, and wonder, and come to worship Him for all of His ways. Indeed, true worship is unreservedly approving from our heart all that God does, for we know that His way is the best way.
Some people wish that God had qualified His statement, to read, "I create physical evil," that is, earthquakes, famine, etc. But the full context of Isaiah 45 shows otherwise. Verse one speaks of Cyrus, "whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations." It was God who girded him for conquest, and sent him to WAR. But war is more than just a physical evil, it is the consequence of wrong doing, and results from sin, deceit, corruption, oppression, ambition, hatred, etc. And even the injecting of a godly man into a war to help clean up the mess doesn't erase the fact that war itself is an evil, and the results of evil.
"Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it ? Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret to His servants the prophets." [Amos 3:6-7]. Praise God, HE controls both ends, and He causes the evil to happen in one place, and tells the secret of it to His servant in another place, and then uses that servant to "stand by" in prayer and believing until a victory is wrought out of it all.
It is God Himself, and not an enemy, that has set good and evil before us, not for our injury but for our benefit, under the direction of perfect wisdom, that all the events of life must work together for the good of all.
WISDOM that is infinite, cares for each of us as if we were but one, and yet regards the whole as easily as if they were but one. One individual, or a whole universe, it matters not, His power is such that we all receive that personal attention as if we were the only one, and yet He deals with the whole with that same wonderful wisdom and power. When each individual is the object of infinite patience and boundless love, is watched over by an omniscient eye, and protected by an omnipotent arm, none can perish.
And remember this one solid fact: All evil must ultimately self-destruct, while all good is self-perpetuating. God has built an inherent law into each force, it is immutable and cannot be altered. All creation tells the story of how evil constantly destroys itself, and it is a survival of the fittest. Thus good continues to perpetuate and carry on, and ultimately shall triumph completely. Hallelujah!
Someone once wrote the statement, "whatever is, is right." This is absolutely true from God's position, even though it appears to be the opposite from the natural, earthly viewpoint.
We look at a certain situation and declare that it is "all wrong," and from man's viewpoint, under the restrictions and laws that govern us, it is wrong, and we shall be judged and dealt with according to our choice and action in the matter. Yet from God's viewpoint these things are "right," in that they are being used of Him in the divine interplay of good and evil, to work a development and maturity in us.
Thus we find that in one sense, the words right and wrong are quite relative, and also that they relate to some standard or rule. Usually it is all on man's side and viewpoint, for it was given to man for his processing and overcoming.
Yet certainly we must all agree that IN GOD there is no duality of right and wrong, for everything He IS, and DOES is RIGHT. His holiness and righteousness assure us of that, for His way is Perfect.
It is on man's realm that we find these contrasts, and then must use the right to overcome the wrong. Negative and positive, with their interaction, for this is apart of this present arrangement. To develop and train us, that we might be prepared for the higher realms in God.
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God, ipso facto, has limitations insofar that He is of a particular nature. If we are to say that God is love, and not simply loving, then it cannot be said as a matter of contradictions that God is hate. Thus, it can be clearly established that the limitations of God are not so much limitations as they are definitions of His nature. A limitation upon His infinite nature would suggest that God is not love, but simply loves, and therefore does not love perfectly or completely. Therefore, as far as evil and sin are concerned, God is the creator of all things which have been created; in other words, things which have not been created but exist of themselves are not of God. God did not create Himself, therefore it is reasoned that "all things" infers to which is created, and not to absolutely everything. This not a limitation upon the infinite nature of God because God is all things that He is, and nothing else.
Now God as a perfect God, is a complete and rational God. That is, his nature, will, and desires cannot be improved upon. Therefore, God is simply actuality. As such, the case is not that God loves, but that God is love (1 Jn 4.8, 1 Jn 4.16). Thus the traits of God are the essence of him, and his essence his existence. In this way, God is simple. As a result of his perfection and completion, God is eternal and unchanging. There is nothing which God can become because he already is complete in his being. In this sense, it is not possible for God to be things which God is not, since those things are not of his essence and therefore imperfect. As stated above, God cannot be hate since God is love. It is thus an absurdity to conclude that God is weak based on preconditions which already presuppose that weakness by contradicting the perfection and completion of God. God cannot create a rock he cannot lift because a situation cannot exist that presupposes that God is both imperfect and incomplete. God cannot do things not of his nature because he is complete, and will not do things not of his nature because he is perfect. It follows then that God's perfection makes him omnipotent insofar that he is complete, and therefore capable of doing all things which can be done by Him (Job 42.2).
God is likewise rational. That is to say that God is simultaneously (1) rational in being and (2) rational in action. The existence of God is rational by its own right in that his perfection is in the optimal state of existence (Exodus 3.14). By this perfection, no part of God contradicts with any other part, and every part is simultaneously one part (Jn 10.30), as it is his essence. He is thus coherent in being and consistent of himself, and therefore can be understood to the extent that one can understand him (Romans 12.2-8; 2 Peter 3.14-18). God is thus justifiable on the basis of reason. As a result, God is likewise rational in action. His works are optimized for the accomplishment of his purposes (Acts 4.28). That is to say that his works conform to his nature, and that by his perfect nature, his works are likewise perfect (2 Samuel 22.31). Thus, God's nature cannot be described as escaping reason, but it is nonetheless beyond limited or faulty reasoning that precludes knowledge of his grace because of the imperfections of the one reasoning (Matthew 13.13). It is the case then that because of imperfect reasoning, the simple perfection of God appears instead as a complexity that cannot be fully grasped by an imperfect intellect. Nevertheless, the being of God can be understood by anyone that believes and whom can understand it (1 Cor 2.5; Mark 9.23).
Therefore, it not God that creates evil. While God may create calamities or disasters, these things are done for the purposes of God, which is, like Him, good. Thus, evil as it is understood in its abstract form, is something which is not of God and exists as a consequence of a will which rejects Him (James 1.12-18).
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Hismessenger
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In order to understand evil first you must study the scripture to see what God calls evil and what God calls good. There is one passage where God says "I sought to do you" evil"
What is God speaking of if He is not the author of and carries another understanding than what we can gather from our finite understandings. A soveriegn God truly has no limitations other than the ones that He choose to place upon Himself. And even there, can the creature question the creator about his purpsoe without understanding? How would the creature even know that something has changed unless the soveriegn God gives light to his understanding. His ways are not our ways so how do you gauge what is or isn't without having a "rational basis" to compare what you belive to what it is that God knows.
hismessenger
What is God speaking of if He is not the author of and carries another understanding than what we can gather from our finite understandings. A soveriegn God truly has no limitations other than the ones that He choose to place upon Himself. And even there, can the creature question the creator about his purpsoe without understanding? How would the creature even know that something has changed unless the soveriegn God gives light to his understanding. His ways are not our ways so how do you gauge what is or isn't without having a "rational basis" to compare what you belive to what it is that God knows.
hismessenger
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Hismessenger
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Even the evil is good for the purpose it was created for. Evil is a created thing. God is not created but is the creator of all things that exsist in this creation. Evil is not of God but created by God for His purpose in which He says that everything that He created was good, for who was it that placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Did it just spring forth of it's own accord?
hismessenger
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Evil existed (if you can call it existence) because the Angels, who were created before the world, were also created with free will, and Lucifer and his followers chose pride and rebellion against God. So the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was put there by God, again in light of the free will he bestowed on us.
Mary
Mary
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lawtonfogle
My solace my terror, my terror my solace.
LOL - You're so certain, but you don't even know where the Bible speaks of it.
By the way - the verse you are refering to is Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things. (English Standard Version)
In the Hebrew text, the word is{ra'} (translated as "calamity"). It can also be translated into English as affliction, trouble, adversity, naught: The context is in the prophecy of Cyrus. God is telling Cyrus (as of yet, unborn) that He will astablish Cyrus' kingdom for His own purpose.
The message is that God sets up kingdoms, and tears them down. God brings peace to kingdoms, or adversity. The passage is not teaching that God created evil.
ra' can be translated more than just that.
Also, I'm pretty sure it was being used as a noun. But none the less, the general use of this word is something which is evil. Is creating 'wrong' or 'injury' or 'unhappy' different than creating evil?
Also, for the 'natural' argument which states God was speaking of natural things, and as such calamity fits the context, you just need to look at the next verse.
I don't count skies pouring down righteousness count as a natural event.
Here are a number of translations of the verse in question.
6 out of 12 say evil. 50% think it is evil.
Finally, even if it is meant to be calamity, then one needs to ask is it evil to create things that, if a human could do them, would be considered evil? One could try to 'justify' God by saying that He only creates calamity for those who are already damned to hell (any one not saved), but then isn't He just as justified creating evil for the same reason?
Anyways, original evil would probably be traced back to Lucifer and his actions. But being that that story for the most part is hidden from human knowledge, we can't be too sure as to what happened. But what ever it is, God gave Lucifer, created him with, the ability to do evil.
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