God did not create evil.

[Idea]

For some reason I was thinking back to some threads I started a long time ago – seems I posted them in the wrong forum. It bothers me that people believe and were willing to argue that “God created evil”. I am concerned that many do not understand who God is. They Love Jesus, they love the Holy Spirit, but when it comes to creator of all this mess… When in truth, He is not the creator of it all, He did not create evil.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK - let's hear your viewpoint on the origin of evil. Not how to deal with evil - not how we can be strengthened from it - I want to hear where it came from - what is the origin. And none of this "some mysteries are not yet revealed to us" nonsense. We are told to ask questions, that if we knock, we will be given answers.

Here are two choices:

1. God did not create everything, God did not create evil.

- God did not create Himself – therefore He did not create everything. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If it was “made” it was made by Him, however, some things are not made – some things exist without a beginning, they are self-existent.
– Even though there is a part of us He did not create, He is a Loving, merciful, just God. He wants to adopt us, will do everything in His power save take away our free agency to refine us.
John3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We have need for deliverance – not because of anything God has created – but as a result of the self-existent part of us that God is in no way responsible for.


2. God created everything, God created evil.
- God created us to be “wretched men” Romans 7:24 - O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? He deliberately created us imperfectly that we would suffer. He created Satan, He created Hell. God caused that His Son should die, and has chosen some to spend eternity in torment. Mark9:43 … hell, the fire that never shall be quenched


1 Timothy4:1 NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy

Which description of God sounds like lies in hypocrisy, lies, like doctrines of devils? Who would Satan have us believe God is?


Aside from – “God did not create everything, we have a pre-existence, part of us is eternal and self-existent” - I have heard no other explanation that is in harmony of a Loving, Just, Merciful God.

________________________________________
What is self-existent?
God, “intelligences”, matter? energy?
Intelligences – being the mind of man – that God is the Father of our Spirits in the same way that we are parents on Earth – we do not create the mind or thoughts in our children’s head…? Would you agree?

In the beginning… But then for some entities, there is no beginning, some entities exist outside of time, have no beginning, no end, no creation…

Atheists accept that matter, energy, and the laws that control them are self-existent from the laws of conservation of mass/energy – the laws of thermodynamics. I think they agree that mass/energy can change form, but cannot blink in and out of existence – they simply are, or are not – look around, they exist. The fundamental building blocks and laws that control them just always were and always will be.

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. - Jeremiah 1:5

Our birth was not our beginning… Part of us had no beginning.

8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. - Isaiah 64:8

The potter did not make the clay… but we can become His creation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

We can sit here and debate like a bunch of scribes and Pharisees, or you can pray to your Father in Heaven and ask Him who He is.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you - Matthew 7:7

Pray, find out for yourself. It is all true. There is no hypocrisy. Pray.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Moroni 10:4 - 5

I repeat - it is all true - the Holy Ghost can and will comunicate with you if you will just ask God with a sincere heart.

 

[JAL]

Well, I for one agree that God did not create evil.

Evil is the act of a being with free will choosing to violate his conscience, that is, choosing to act contrary to the dictates of conscience. We are especially prone to this since the Fall, in my view.

 

[Idea]

Well, I for one agree that God did not create evil.

I'm glad someone agrees
Do you believe in a pre-existence then?
What is the origin of free will?
What would you say is self-existent?

 

[Idea]

I would like to post an overview of what I understand to be the “Big Picture” – how it all fits together. Who we are, who Satan is, where we came from, where we are trying to go, what the Purpose of life is… I would love to hear others understanding of the “big picture” is. J We call our big picture “the Plan of Salvation”.

Plan of Salvation
Premortal Life
Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father's other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22–26).
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
Abraham 3:22 - 26
In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27).
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Abraham 3:27 - 28

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Pearl of Great Price | Moses 4:1 - 4

[12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:12
What would it take to save all mankind? It would require that our free wills be taken from us. God was not willing to do this… This was the war in heaven, this is when the son of the morning fell.]
Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man". He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality.
Throughout our premortal lives, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father's plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.
Mortal Life
We are now experiencing mortal life. Our spirits are united with our bodies, giving us opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in premortal life. This part of our existence is a time of learning in which we can prove ourselves, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life. It is also a time when we can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation.

 

[Idea]

Life after Death
When we die, our spirits will enter the spirit world and await the resurrection. At the time of the resurrection, our spirit and body will reunite, and we will be judged and received into a kingdom of glory. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus"
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

(Doctrine and CovenantsSection76:50 - 59)
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the cmoon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
Doctrine and CovenantsSection76:71 - 79

96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.
98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section76:96 - 101)

Outer Darkness
102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

Doctrine and CovenantsSection76:102 - 106

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians15:40 - 42)



Blessings through Knowledge of the Plan
A testimony of the plan of salvation can give us hope and purpose as we wrestle with the challenges of life. We can find reassurance in the knowledge that we are children of God and that we lived in His presence before being born on the earth. We can find meaning in our present life, knowing that our actions during mortality influence our eternal destiny. With this knowledge, we can base important decisions on eternal truths rather than on the changing circumstances of life. We can continually improve our relationships with family members, rejoicing in the promise that our families can be eternal. We can find joy in our testimonies of the Atonement and the Lord's commandments, ordinances, covenants, and doctrines, knowing that "he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come" (D&C 59:23).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


So to sum up (for those who do not like to read)
Self-existent intelligences were organized into spirits – we are the literal spirit children of our Heavenly Father. That is why we call Him our Father. In the spirit world God presented a plan where we could progress to become like Him. God’s plan: come to Earth, learn self-control, self-discipline, learn to control our free will, hopefully choose to follow God. Satan did not like this plan as some would not use their free will correctly. Satan suggested that he would take away everyone’s free will in an attempt to “save” everyone – save everyone from pain/sorrow of incorrectly using free will + Satan wanted glory, He did not want others to progress to be equal with him or God, He would keep mankind from progressing in exchange for saving mankind from sorrow and pain. 1/3 of the spirits in heaven fell with Satan. The other 2/3 used their free will to come to Earth to be tested and to progress, no matter what the cost. God sent His Son to die, so that mistakes we make while learning would not eternally condemn us if we repent and change our ways… After our probationary time here on Earth, and in paradise/prison (for those who do not receive the gospel in this life) we will be placed into a kingdom of glory. Those who are able to overcome the “natural man”, who learn to love, to be self-less, to be humble, and perfect – those who are able to do this, through Jesus, can become Heavenly Parents themselves. Those not able to handle this will be given degrees of glory equal to what they are able to handle…

To strive for something more than just playing harps on clouds… to understand who God is, who we are. To take responsibility for our self, that we are not victims of anyone but our self, that our Loving Father will help us overcome our evil tendencies IF we choose to let Him. We have to ask, He will not take away our free agency…

PS - if you have any LDS questions, we would love to hear from you
http://christianforums.com/f887-visitor-questions-and-discussion.html
or just post on:
http://christianforums.com/f839-latter-day-saints-visitors-welcome.html

visitors welcome and appreciated

 

[angelmom01]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[holyrokker]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

In the Hebrew text, the word is

{ra'} which can be translated into English as affliction, trouble, advesity, naught: The context is in the prophecy of Cyrus. God is telling Cyrus (as of yet, unborn) that He will astablish Cyrus' kingdom for His own purpose. The message is that God sets up kingdoms, and tears them down. God brings peace to kingdoms, or adversity. The passage is not teaching that God created evil.

 

[Ormly]

Better it be understood that God uses evil for His purposes.

 

[angelmom01]

H7451

רעה רע

ra‛ râ‛âh

rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

 

[Ormly]

H7451

רעה רע

ra‛ râ‛âh

rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

Only "good" is of God, correct?

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
Matthew 7:11 (NKJV)

 

[angelmom01]

Only "good" is of God, correct?

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
Matthew 7:11 (NKJV)

Only God IS GOOD (Mat 19:17), which does not change the fact that ALL THINGS are of God (2Co 5:18), who is the creator of ALL THINGS (Eph 3:9) and who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11).

I am not saying that "evil" is "a things" that God created. Evil exists because MAN exists, because corruption exists, because sin and death exist.

Who created man? And who made man subject to vanity? (And has therefore provided a Redeemer to provide salvation from the same?)

 

[Ormly]

Only God IS GOOD (Mat 19:17), which does not change the fact that ALL THINGS are of God (2Co 5:18), who is the creator of ALL THINGS (Eph 3:9) and who works ALL THINGS according to the counsel OF HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11).

I am not saying that "evil" is "a things" that God created. Evil exists because MAN exists, because corruption exists, because sin and death exist.

Who created man? And who made man subject to vanity? (And has therefore provided a Redeemer to provide salvation from the same?)

Ok. I would say evil exists because freewill exists. One day freewill will cease to exist inasmuch all of freewill will be God's will.

 

[Ben12]

Ok. I would say evil exists because freewill exists. One day freewill will cease to exist inasmuch all of freewill will be God's will.

Where does it say anything about freewill is the Bible except the Freewill Offering in OT???

 

[Ormly]

Where does it say anything about freewill is the Bible except the Freewill Offering in OT???

Thats good enough for most people.

 

[Ben12]

Thats good enough for most people.

So what does that mean. I mean if it is not based on scripture; there is no foundation...

The so called hyper hole you mentioned is religion with the concept of freewill; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures.

But I am saying we do not come to God by free will; we are saved by grace. I see on the contrary He draws (Gk. drags) us.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

Draw Greek Strong’s 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

 

[Ormly]

So what does that mean. I mean if it is not based on scripture; there is no foundation...

The so called hyper hole you mentioned is religion with the concept of freewill; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures.

But I am saying we do not come to God by free will; we are saved by grace. I see on the contrary He draws (Gk. drags) us.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

Draw Greek Strong’s 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

BUt you just demonstrated with scripture it was and thats enough for most people, including me. No need to take it further.

 

[beloved57]

God did create Evil He create all things..

isa 45: 7

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[beloved57]

ormly says

Only "good" is of God, correct?

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!"
Matthew 7:11 (NKJV)

Job 2

10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

 

[Idea]

Where does it say anything about freewill is the Bible except the Freewill Offering in OT???

Here are a few free agency scriptures….

Gen. 2: 16 Of every tree . . . thou mayest freely eat.
Gen. 4: 7 if thou doest not well.
Deut. 11: 27 blessing, if ye obey.
Deut. 30: 19 therefore choose life.
Josh. 24: 15 choose . . . whom ye will serve.
1 Kgs. 18: 21 if the Lord be God, follow him.
Prov. 1: 29 did not choose the fear of the Lord.
Matt. 26: 39 not as I will, but as thou wilt.
John 5: 30 I seek not mine own will.
Ex. 25: 2 every man that giveth it willingly with his heart.
Ex. 35: 21 they came . . . every one whom his spirit made willing.
Lev. 1: 3 offer it of his own voluntary will.
1 Chr. 29: 9 with perfect heart they offered willingly to the Lord.
1 Cor. 9: 17 if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward.
1 Pet. 5: 2 feed the flock of God . . . not by constraint, but willingly.

Liberty – free will – free agency – are central to who we are…

Ex. 21: 2 in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
Lev. 25: 10 proclaim liberty throughout all the land.
Ps. 119: 45 I will walk at liberty.
Isa. 58: 6 to let the oppressed go free.
Isa. 61: 1 to proclaim liberty to the captives.
Jer. 34: 8 made a covenant . . . to proclaim liberty unto them.
Jer. 34: 17 I proclaim a liberty for you.
Ezek. 46: 17 it shall be his to the year of liberty.
Luke 4: 18 to set at liberty them that are bruised.
John 8: 32 know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8: 36 If the Son . . . make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Rom. 8: 21 glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Cor. 7: 39 she is at liberty to be married.
1 Cor. 8: 9 lest . . . this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock.
1 Cor. 10: 29 is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience.
2 Cor. 3: 17 where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Gal. 2: 4 our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 5: 1 (Mosiah 23: 13; Alma 58: 40; Alma 61: 9; D&C 88: 86) Stand . . . in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free.
Gal. 5: 13 ye have been called unto liberty, only use not liberty.
Heb. 13: 23 Know ye that . . . Timothy is set at liberty.
James 1: 25 whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty.
James 2: 12 they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
1 Pet. 2: 16 not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness.
2 Pet. 2: 19 they promise them liberty.

There is no use trying to evade the issue.
There are times when God does not intervene-
The fact that He does nothing is one of the most
baffling mysteries in the Christian Faith

It was HG Wells that voiced the dilema
that many troubled hearts have faced in war times;

"Either God has the power to stop all this
carnage and klling and He doesn't care,
or else He does care, and He doesn't have
the power to stop it."

But that is not the answer...
As long as there is sin in the world.
As long as there is greed
selfishness
hate in the hearts of men
there will be war...

It is only because God is God that He is reckless
enough to allow human beings such free will as
has led the world into this present catastrophe.

God could have prevented the war!
Do you doubt for a moment that God has not the power?
But suppose He had used it?
Men would then have lost their free agency...
They would no longer be endowed with the ability to choose...

They would then become puppets
robots
machines
toy soldiers instead.

No, God is playing a much bigger game.
He is still awaiting an awakened sense of the responsibility
of brotherhood in the hearts of men and women everywhere.

He will not do for us the things that we can do for ourselves.

-Peter Marshall

 

[armothe]

I'm really tired of people using the Isaiah & Job references to support God creating 'evil'. The word translates as calamity, not wickedness. Certainly God can cause ill fortune such as floods & houses falling on people, but nowhere in the Word do we see God actingly wickedly.

-A