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No, you did not understand why i posted that verse.Yes, I understand why you posted the verse.
Nevertheless, it is not how I have come to understand the verse(s). The specific passage in Numbers, as I said before, illustrates God's express rights as potter over the clay. He can command and punish according to his sovereign plan whether the object knows or understands. It is not an arbitrary process because God knows and carries out his plan. What appears as a contradiction or paradox to us makes perfect sense in light of God's omniscience and plan.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to [ripe for, Amplified] destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Jews and Gentiles had been formed out of the same lump of clay. Jews were the descendants of Noah through his son Shem. The Gentiles were Noah's descendants from Japheth and Ham. God's original purpose was always to have one family, or one lump. God had chosen Abraham, Issac, and Jacob to places of greater honor (as leaders of the nation), and Ishmael and Esau lesser honor. Moses was a vessel of honor, but Pharaoh dishonor. God providentially used them all to bring about his plan to have one "vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work," formed from all the nations of the earth.
Paul must have had in mind Jeremiah's illustration of the potter when he used the parable of the potter and the clay: "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing. Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken? Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will show them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity." (Jer 18-1-17)
God had not originally made the nation of Israel for the purpose of destroying her. No potter will take pains to make a vessel merely to show he has power to dash it to pieces. God does not engage himself in vanity. But Israel through obstinance had become marred in his hands, so now the nation had become a vessel of wrath fit or ripe for destruction. Israel was no longer fit to be considered as God's family. Especially, since God had found a people, the Gentiles, who were more responsive to his grace. But, alas, as Jeremiah prophesied, God would scatter the Jews among the nations. Their day of calamity was upon them, as Titus was about to move against Jerusalem and utterly destroy their polity.
God in his goodness was still calling Israel to repentance through Paul, even as he did through Jeremiah; but as a nation the people were saying, "There is no hope." Yet there was a remnant of Jews, who recognized that Jesus Christ was the "Hope of Israel" and they were responding to the Gospel.
Before God had ever called Abraham, he had planned to have vessels of mercy made up of all peoples, Jews and Gentiles, upon whom he might make known the riches of his glory. God providentially moved in history to have a people molded in his image after his character; for the essence of God's glory is his good character, which he longs to reproduce in his children.
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee , I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [Hosea 2:23, 1 Pet 2:10] 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they [the Gentiles] be called the children of the living God. [Hosea 1:10]
Paul, as his practice was, when addressing Jews, appealed to the prophets to support his doctrine, that the calling of the Gentiles was not incidental, but a firm purpose in the LORD'S mind. The Jews were fighting against God and renouncing their prophets by opposing the call of the Gentiles.
Umm, actually, it doesn't say that at all..
Originally Posted by ZeenaFor no man would punish another for something they could not help!I don't see the contradiction, please elaborate.
As I see it, God has set His Moral Law within the hearts of men.
God has set this in our heart, it is OF him.
But HIS Way is higher, ergo more morally responsable than ours.
Thank you for acknowledging my effort, even as I now acknowledge yours. I do not suppose you to be posting on a whim, nor do I suppose you to be posting half-heartedly. Though, I do wonder how you are able to reply so quickly!Well, I am sorry then. Thank you for taking so much time and effort in the post. It is much appreciated.
I have been reading quite a few of your posts via these forums, and have not failed to notice that you are a proponent of the theory of original sin. Suffice to say, that I am not?How so? God does not make junk, but neither are the indelible effects of Adam and Eve's choice erased merely by being born. This is not because of some inability of God either. There was a punishment for mankind and there is also redemption.
No, it is not 'clear as day.' Please show me, through the Scripture, how this is 'clear as day', if you will?Yes, they are hateful because God condemns them through the words of the prophets. Nevertheless, it is as clear as day that God is in control and caused their hearts to turn.
The 'manner' in which grace is dispensed is by the faith of Jesus Christ. HIM, Living in and through us is the Grace of God through the faith that we place in Him to do so.Yes, I would agree with your conclusions here for the most part. God's actions are according to his nature as is man's according to his. The key, however is grace and the manner in which it is dispensed.
I never leave home without Him!I admire your approach. Also, we should ask for the aid of the Holy Spirit and he will assist.
I could, in the Spirit of my God, honestly care less and less about 'interpretations', what matters is faith, expressing itself in Love.There are still right and wrong interpretations and we must try to find the right one on this side of eternity.
Yes, of course you may.By all means, have your own opinions! Also, may I have both my own opinions on the Scripture as well as what you say about Scripture?
Good, I'm glad we can find a subject of agreement.No, the context is never irrelavent in the work of careful exegesis.
Not as Israel has, whch Paul expressly states in the Scripture quoted.Indeed, the Jews and all unbelievers in the Christ have been blinded and deafened.
I see nothing of the sort, please point out your referrance.However, that does not mean that the blinding and deafining happened just as a result of their sin apart from God's sovereign plan and ultimate control.
From what I see, you have actually put forth two stances;No, it is NOT arbitrary! I explained this in part 1 of my reply above.
And I will now direct you to Romans 11 for the continuation of this very subject.As for the context, yes, that is correct in that particular instance. However, there are gentile unbelievers and God is sovereign and carries out his will whether it is prescriptive or secret. Romans 9 is very important for this understanding.
I'm saying that I could say the very same of myself, or any one of us who's mind is set on the flesh.What? Are you saying that you did not accuse me through ad hominems? You made comments about who you think I am as a person rather than the arguments I put forth in my posts.
The 'god of this world' is not bound, 'cept by the Life & Word of Christ Jesus.So God merely "allowed" Satan to do it, neither knowing beforehand that he would or keeping ahold of the chains with which the god of the world is bound?
No, that is exactly what I'm saying. Though, flip it around so that God is the 'first cause' of us having morals, rather than Him being subject to our 'morality' and there you have it! hahaIt seemed that you were saying both that God has his higher ways and that those ways of justice should be similar to the way man's system of justice operates for it to be acceptable. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.
Then how come is god angry with that devil, seeing as he has "scripted all the choices"?
Isaiah 59:18God is not angry with any of His creation for He knows the purposes that He created each and everything for.
Job 32:2In essence what your asking is why does he still find fault which Paul answered in the scriptures if you want to look it up. It is there and the answer is based in Faith.
hismessenger
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
When Calvinists are questioned concerning the reasonableness of their alleged divine decrees, that God arbitrarily saves a minority and damns the majority of men before their birth, they will eventually quote Roman 9:20 to silence their opponent. But opponents to Calvinism should not be intimidated by such a harsh reply. Remember, Paul was not addressing the issue of personal salvation, or whether or not man has the ability of contrary choice. He was anticipating a Jewish argument that God should not find fault with them, because everything was unfolding according to God's plan and purpose despite the failure of Israel to do God's will in being a light to the Gentiles.
Paul gave a severe retort to this Jewish gainsayer, because he did not have an honest question. The Holy Spirit is ever ready to provide answers to sincere questions and even objections. But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistible. Actually in verse 31 of this chapter and in Romans 10, Paul does explain why God found fault with the Jews. But this was not the place to get off his point, especially since the one questioning Paul had an attitude to blame God and justify the Jewish people in their rebellion.
This temperament was typical of the Jews thoughout their history. Generations before while Israel was in Babylonian captivity and it seemed that God had forsaken his people, God answered a critic who accused him of injustice, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezek 18:23-24)
" Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?" The hypocritical and caviling Jew objected to Ezekiel's claim that all the alleged righteousness of Israel's past would not be regarded by God.
"When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
"Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?" (Ezek 18:25-29) Again the Jew had the audacity to question the fairness of God in his dealings with Israel.
But Ezekiel continued, "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." (Ezek 18:30-32)
Who was Israel, considering its track record, to ever question God's wise choices and decisions? Who was Israel to question God's wisdom in receiving Gentiles and seemingly casting off the Jews?
Since it was Paul's practice to go to the Jew first, they could have repented at any time had they have searched the Scriptures diligently to confirm Paul's teaching, but instead they quibbled with Paul, rejecting the truth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Paul anticipated another false and frivolous objection coming from the Jews: "Why should God blame us if everything is happening according to God's will?" But certainly Paul was not denying that the Jews were responsible and accountable beings, or that God's will is irresistible.
The Jews worshipped the true God, but rarely in their history did they worship him in spirit and truth. They did not love him; in their selfish works they denied him and caused his name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles. So, God hardened their heart by withdrawing his spirit and bringing judgments which tended to make them more obdurate and rebellious. Yet they still claimed to be God's people. Thus any Jewish hypocrite might ask, "Why does he find fault? Our rebellion is according to God's will."
At the close of Paul's life when he was under house arrest in Rome some of the Jewish leaders came to visit him where he was "lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. {24} And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. {25} And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, {26} Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: {27} For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. {28} Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. {29} And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. (Act 28:23-29)
Some have falsely interpreted Isaiah's words, which Paul quoted to mean that God did not intend the Jews to hear or understand. One might get that understanding if one took Isaiah's original words at face value and out of the context of general Biblical teaching. Paul did not exactly quote the words of the old prophet, "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed (Isaiah 1:10)
One might think that God did not want the Jews to have a conversion of the heart. But we know that God is not willing that any should perish. So that cannot be Isaiah's true meaning. Paul clarified Isaiah's words by explaining that the problem was that the Jews did not want to believe, because it would have required them to give up their religion and humble themselves. They were intentionally stubborn, refused to listen and shut their own eyes (understanding) to truth. Plainly their problem was an unwillingness to believe, not lack of evidence for the truths Paul proclaimed. Some simply chose to believe and others chose not to believe.
No wonder Paul was determined to go to the Gentiles, who would listen. No wonder God was rejecting the Jews as his special people. They had rejected him!
[/But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistibleQUOTE]
Was He really?
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"[/QUOTE]
If you believe the statement made above that God's will is resisitible then you need to search further in the scriptures for yourself. I'm talking about the opening quote of this post. Here are a few others which show that God is truly in Control
This one pertains to the most famous of them who tried to resist His willExd 9:16 But indeed for this [purpose] I have raised you up, that I may show My power [in] you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.
Pharaoh.
Has he not spoken and has His word come to pass as He spoke it? Did our choices change anything which He has said will be?Psa 75:7 But God [is] the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another.
Then go read the last chapters of Job and ask yourself who is this God who holds all creation in His hands. Not just man and the earth but everything which can be seen in the heavens and the oceans . He is not emotional about His creation but operates in perfect love and order. He has ordered all things in the creation.
This is the last that I will post for now;
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps
I think the word speaks for itself and needs no one to interpret for you if you are seeking the truth. The question is, once the truth is before us, can and will we accept it no matter how much it goes against the grain of our thinking.
hismesenger
So, you're implying that because God can superimpose His Will upon man that He does?But this hypocrite did not deserve a reply to such an absurd notion that God's will was irresistible
Was He really?
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"
Is He mocking us, or is He lieing in saying we have a choice?Deuteronomy 30:10-20
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.Romans 10:8 said:But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
It's not 'control', for then we would truly be construde as puppets, incapable of love, for love is a two way street!If you believe the statement made above that God's will is resisitible then you need to search further in the scriptures for yourself. I'm talking about the opening quote of this post. Here are a few others which show that God is truly in Control.
So then, what was God doing? Arguing with Himself?This one pertains to the most famous of them who tried to resist His will
Pharaoh.
The Lord MAKES things come to pass, He just doesn't command and "oops" there it is! But even Jesus is shown as the agent through which all things are MADE, in the following verse;Has he not spoken and has His word come to pass as He spoke it?
Could they?Did our choices change anything which He has said will be?
IN His hands, NOT in His heart. For wicked and evil men have no part in Him, as I quoted Scripture explicately stating as much earlier.Then go read the last chapters of Job and ask yourself who is this God who holds all creation in His hands.
They're all in His hands, and will come to answer to Him, alone, on Judgement day.Not just man and the earth but everything which can be seen in the heavens and the oceans.
Which is why Paul could ferverantly use examples from nature when people were going astray.He is not emotional about His creation but operates in perfect love and order. He has ordered all things in the creation.
Oh, but the question begs an answer!This is the last that I will post for now;
I sure hope you are willing.I think the word speaks for itself and needs no one to interpret for you if you are seeking the truth. The question is, once the truth is before us, can and will we accept it no matter how much it goes against the grain of our thinking.
hismesenger
"Everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by his power, and everything is for his glory. - Romans 11:36 (LB)
The Lord has made everything for his own purposes. - Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
It's all for him.
The ultimate goal of the universe is to show the glory of God. It is the reason for everything that exists, including you. God made it all for his glory. Without God's glory, there would be nothing.
What is the glory of god? It is who God is. It is the essence of his nature, the weight of his importance, the radiance pf his spendor, the demonstartion of his power, and the atmosphere of his presence. God's glory is the expression of his goodness and all his other intrinsic, eternal qualities.
Where is the glory of God? Just look around. Everything created by God reflects his glory in some way. We see it everywhere, from the smallest microscopic form of life to the vast Milky Way, from the sunsets and stars to storms and seasons.
Creation reveals our Creators glory. In nature we learn that God is powerful, that He enjoys variety, loves beauty, is organised, and is wise and creative. The Bible says, "The heavens declare the glory of God."
Throughout history, God has revealed his glory to people in different settings. He revealed it first in the Garden of Eden, then to Moses, then in the tabernacle and the temple, then through Jesus, and now through the church. It was portrayed as a consuming fire, a cloud, thunder, smoke, and a brilliant light. In heaven, God's glory provides all the light needed. The Bible says, "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light."
God's glory is best seen in Jesus Christ. He, the light of the world, illuminates God's nature. Because of Jesus, we are no longer in the dark about what God is really like. The Bible says "The Son is the radiance of God's glory." Jesus came to earth so that we could fully understand God's glory. "The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory... a glory full of grace and truth."
God's inherent glory is what he possesses because he is God. It is his nature. We cannot add anything to this glory, just as it would be impossible to make the sun shiner brighter. But we are commanded to recognize his glory, and live for his glory. Why? Because God deserves it! We owe him every honor we can possibly give. Since God made all things, he deserves all the glory. The Bible says, "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power and might. For you created everything."
In the entire universe, only two of God's creations fail to bring glory to him: fallen angels (demons) and us (people). All sin, at its root, is failing to give God glory. It is loving anything else more than God. Refusing to bring glory to God is prideful rebellion, and it is the sin that caused Satan's fall - and ours, too. In different ways we have all lived for our own glory, not God's. The Bible says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
None of us have given God the full glory he deserves from our lives. This is the worst sin and the biggest mistake we can make. On the other hand, living for God's glory is the greatest achievement we can accomplish with our lives. God says, "They are my people, and I have created them to bring me glory," so it ought to be the supreme goal of our lives.
Let me ask you this. In a movie, the script writer has scripted all the choices which the characters will make. Why is it so hard to believe this of God for it is His creation written for His purpose, not ours.
Genesis 1:31So it is your belief that a perfect God would manifest a creation with many flaws and wickedness without being aware of what He set forth.
Ecclesiastes 7:29
Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Where?It doesn't say that it was good in and of itself but for His purpose.
hismessenger
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