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The Bible teaches death for the unsaved, not eternal punishing.No, I don't agree. That is not a compelling answer. I don't think people have libertarian free will, but even if I grated they did for the sake of argument, you still have the problem of God's foreknowledge and HIS choice to permit eternal suffering for finite misdemeanors. Why think eternal punishment is more moral than forgiving peoples wrongs?
Better read the Bible in stead.Sure, sovereignty we are different, but not on holiness and eternal punishment.
Read Wesley, Tozer, Brown, et al, they will agree with us regarding the doctrine of holiness and hell.
Libertarian free will.
And I'm not getting into this discussion.
I believe God has sovereign control over everything.
I believe He gave us free will...and it was never taken away. We are made in His image.
Because God allows things to happen does not mean that He causes things to happen.
If He causes things to happen, then God has predestined every abortion, murder, rape, etc.
If God has predestined everything then He is a God of confusion because he has predestined YOU to be reformed and He has predestined ME not to be reformed.
Predestination makes no logical sense.
And with that I must say good night.
No wonder then..Oh, I don't read that.
Oh, I know some, and I enjoy their company.For many many people it matters A LOT, obviously.
The traditional teaching of eternal conscious torment is perhaps the number 1 reason why people hate God and Christians or just don't want anything to do with it.
But maybe you don't know any unbelievers, or you don't love them so you don't care if they will be tortured forever and ever and ever, never ending.
But that would mean you don't love your fellow humans and you might end up there yourself.
So, what does the Bible teach then?
That should sort things out.
Don't reduce the moral argument to 'emotional hangups'.Oh, I know some, and I enjoy their company.
I get the emotional hangup,
I pointed out the logical problems of eternal conscious torment here: #58It doesn't make any logical sense to reject God when everything that Christianity teaches about God is accounted for.
I don't think the 66 books of the Bible constitute a synchronicity of doctrine or teaching. Some reflect ideas that the underworld includes all dead, other books, especially the NT, consider hell punishment. I don't think anyone can say the "Bible" teaches this or that. There is far too much variability and debate within the theological traditions of the authors.The Bible teaches death for the unsaved, not eternal punishing.
Yes, the punishment, the 2nd death is eternal, of course.
Dead for ever.
People will certainly debate that. The Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament seem to have different narratives on Sheol, Hades, and Hell.Greetings and Salutations,
I have no idea the theology or docternal points y'all are talking about. My understanding of what I read in my Bible. Is God is longsuffering His wrath not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.
I'm not insisting on it, I'm merely pointing out that it solves the problem the OP put forth that Heaven can't have bad people in it, therefore they must go to Hell. I'm not going to get dragged into a "So you think you know better than God?!" argument, but whatever reason any human Christian thinks up, I bet I can defeat that.Ah, you're talking about annihilationism, I didn't think you were before.
That choice is up to God, and his responsibility. Since he has all supremacy, I don't see a reason to insist on that. It also makes no difference as to whether or not Christianity is true, or whether or not God should be followed.
All are sinners, all have sinned against God almighty, yadda yadda, the rest of what you said.They are sinners, and have sinned against God Almighty. It isn't a crime against fellow man, it isn't a crime against a world leader, it is crime against the Maker himself, who deserves our absolute allegiance. It is far grave to sin against the Most High than it would be to be unfaithful to your wife, to disrespect your elderly parents, to attempt to kill the President of the United States (which all are sin). We are talking about the Being of all beings, the Life of all that lives, the I AM WHO I AM. He has no equals and none understands the depths of his ways. He is more supreme than our thoughts can imagine, and higher in glory than anything fifth of dunghill that we can create and call it 'glory.'
Mercy is injustice. You're going to Heaven, but you say that you deserve to be punished.There's no injustice no matter what you believe. Because ALL of us deserve to be punished for sinning against God. God didnt have to provide a way out but in his loving kindness and mercy, he did.
interesting.And "love by force" isn't the alternative. In the after life, God and I could sit down and have a chat. I could get to know him. I could come to love God naturally -- no force involved. Why anyone should imagine he shouldn't do that now, I'll never know. (And no, it's not force. And no, faith is not that much of a virtue.)
I should think that that is proof that God having a conversation with a person isn't a violation of free will.interesting.
I would like to answer this question as if you would have stated God could do that with anybody. And not only with you.
Without wanting to compare you to anyone... God and Cain already sat down had a chat, Cain loved God, I think... and a day later Abel was dead. See Genesis 4.
Some thousand years God sat down with other people and then Jesus was dead. He died horribly.
God sitting down with people apperently does not prevent them from doing harm to others... including his son who died on the cross.
Did you just disprove God? Just kidding...he knows what it takes to achieve his goals (that none should perish) and he has the power to do it.
Does an omnisicent god know what would be effective?Did you just disprove God? Just kidding...
There is also free will.
My apologetic is like this:
When people choose to sin and subsequently choose not to do nothing about it... the sin is still there and God does not admit them to heaven it seems.
I interpret the passage where it says that God does not want anyone to perish... as saying that he does so given both free will + the necessity for man to bring their sin "to the cross" as devout Christians would say.
Thomas
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