God cannot be all-mighty

[Telephone]

Knowing what I am going to do is not the same as causing me to do it.

This is correct, foreknowledge does not cause an event.

But if an omniscient being has foreknowledge, this foreknowledge becomes inescapable.

If god knows you will choose to gamble your house and car on a card game and lose everything in two years time, and he has always know this, even from before you were born, what can you possibly do to change the outcome?

His omniscience means you cannot escape the inevitable event, to do so would mean he was incorrect in his foreknowledge and this is impossible.

So it is safe to conclude that your life is mapped out from before you are born with god knowing every tiny detail, it is impossible for you to stray from what god knows will happen.

This negates true free will and only allows the illusion of free will.

Of course none of this is taking into account that the whole of Christian religion is superstitious nonesense to help people deal with their mortality!

 

[Telephone]

To put it crudely, why couldn't an all powerful God allow people to make certain decisions?

He can allow people to make decisions, but he will always know the final outcome, anything else would remove his omniscience.

Since God created time he is outside of time.

What does this 'outside of time' mean ?

Could anyone explain to me what 'outside of time' means, I suspect it is nothing more than agenda driven religious semantics.

 

[JBrian]

He can allow people to make decisions, but he will always know the final outcome, anything else would remove his omniscience.

I agree.

What does this 'outside of time' mean ?

Something that is eternal; not subject to befores and afters; does not change; something (in Aristotelian/Thomistic terminology) that is pure act with no potential; etc. To argue from the 5 ways, everything is in motion (changes). There cannot be an infinite series of changing (things in motion) things. There must be something that does not change.

All being that we encounter in the physical universe is contingent. Nothing exists because its nature is to exist. There cannot be an infinite series of contingent being. All being must be rooted in non-contingent (necessary) being. Contingent being cannot be an infinite series. This necessary being must be unchanging (no befores or afters, in other words not subject to time), pure act, infinite, perfect, etc.

 

[somaoe]

No one has ever proven that there is any such thing as "time".

 

[lawtonfogle]

No one has ever proven that there is any such thing as "time".

Maybe not time, but there is a cronological order. This cronological order is measure in what we call time (seconds, minutes, eras). The problem is, for there to be a cronological order, one must have faith that his memories did once happen (example being the Matrix. Could one not be 'plugged in' and given a lifetime of memories). But it is generally excepted that there is time.

Also, your question brings up a second point. Nothing cannot be proven to exist without you saying, though not in the exact words, it exist becuase I exist. But one cannot prove there own existance without using something based off their existance.

In conclusion, the point you bring up opens up another can of worms, one that has mutant, bull horned, TRex style (the stereotyped one) hunger, and glowing beams of total destruction coming from there mouths (now that some mutant worms).

 

[Telephone]

JBrian, sorry to be so pedantic, but I suspect the notion of something existing 'outside of time' is nothing more than a nonsense employed to get around some problems in religious doctrine.

Something that is eternal;

'Eternal' (lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) is a temporal word, how can we use a temporal word to describe something that is (considered) atemporal.

...that is pure act...

'Act' is simply shorthand for 'action', again a temporal word.

There cannot be an infinite series of changing (things in motion) things.

Why not, where have you learnt this ?

There must be something that does not change.

Why must there be something that does not change?

All being that we encounter in the physical universe is contingent. Nothing exists because its nature is to exist.

Are we sure, do you share your gods inerrancy on this ?

Could you possibly be wrong ?

There cannot be an infinite series of contingent being. All being must be rooted in non-contingent (necessary) being. Contingent being cannot be an infinite series. This necessary being must be unchanging (no befores or afters, in other words not subject to time), pure act, infinite, perfect, etc.

JBrian, I fail to see any information here, just a series of stated 'facts' with no data, evidence, reason or logic to back them up.

 

[Mortensen]

Im trying to understand this with a God beeing outside time. If he is also in time, what time? Our time? And if he is outside time, he wouldn't be able to do anything. Since time is no object, anything that exist has always existed since there is no past to create it in. The existance would also stand completely still as I mentioned, every part of the universe's history is beeing done over and over again. Like a endless amount of waves, beeing constantly made at the beginning of the universe and disapears at the end. Moving in the speed of time, but nothing is actually moving (like a wave, the water is standing still, its the wave that moves).

Then if God is looking at us outside time, how can we be in time? How can you look at time, outside time?

 

[Telephone]

Then if God is looking at us outside time, how can we be in time? How can you look at time, outside time?

It is simply nonsense used to explain some problems inherent in superstitious belief.

 

[elman]

This is correct, foreknowledge does not cause an event.

But if an omniscient being has foreknowledge, this foreknowledge becomes inescapable.

If god knows you will choose to gamble your house and car on a card game and lose everything in two years time, and he has always know this, even from before you were born, what can you possibly do to change the outcome?

His omniscience means you cannot escape the inevitable event, to do so would mean he was incorrect in his foreknowledge and this is impossible.

So it is safe to conclude that your life is mapped out from before you are born with god knowing every tiny detail, it is impossible for you to stray from what god knows will happen.

This negates true free will and only allows the illusion of free will.

Of course none of this is taking into account that the whole of Christian religion is superstitious nonesense to help people deal with their mortality!

The foreknowledge that is not escapable is what I chose, not what God choses. Thus I have free will. The inevitable event that I cannot escape is the event that I chose. Free will is not an illusion. Christianity may well help people with their mortality and it may also give them a purpose for their lives, both of which is not nonsense and being that a Christian has these benefits does not prove the belief is not based on reality. The biggest illusion of all is to believe reality is limited to what you can perveive emperically and to believe your own speculations must be fact.

 

[elman]

Mortensen]

But if God knows what we will choose, then the actual choice doesn't mather, we cant change anything.

This keep coming up. It is not logical. The anything we cannot change is the choice we make. Therefore the actual choice we make is all important, not as you say doesn't matter.

This with God beeing outside time is extremeley har for me to understand and even harder to explain, but I will give it a shot. Lets take the timeline as an example. If God is not affected by time, he can look at the Universe's history on a timeline. One point of the timeline beeing as good as another and there is no point that is "now". Every point stands completely still (there is nothing moving) and us humans today is the actual same as we will be in two years. If there is not time for God, there cannot be a "now". So how do you explain that the time moves for us, that we can say that "we are living NOW", not yesterday? I really hope that some can see this problem with me and not answer by saying "God is allmighty, its no problem".
[/FONT

] We are motals in time. We cannot understand God or anything not in time or subject to time. Perhaps Einstein saw it partially when he saw that time is relative, but I cannot understand that. My lack of ability has nothing to do with its reality. Some scholars have termed it that God is in an eternal persent. It is also not in our ability to understand eternal or infinite. These are words we use to reference concepts which we are incapable of understanding.

I just figured out that if God is beyond time, he would never have created the universe. It would have allways exsited as a none-moving bluprint of the universe from beginning to end. If he had created the universe, he would have to have done this in the past wich again is not possible when God is beyond time. I find the whole idea of a God that is not affected by time pointless. He could never have created the universe and he can never change it. If he does something you may ask "when?" wich cannot be answered.[/FONT

] Why? What logic tells you God cannot be outside of time, be a Creator of time and also creator of the universe? You keep assuming that if God is outside of or not subject to time then the universe is outside of or not subject to time. Not logical. The universe is subject to time. It is not eternal. God is eternal. He is not subject to time.

 

[Telephone]

The foreknowledge that is not escapable is what I chose, not what God choses.

I don't believe anyone here has said god makes these choices for you, they are your own choices, but with a god's omnipotence, specifically foreknowledge, you are destined to make these choices, the choices a god has always known you will choose.

You cannot choose anything else.

 

[elman]

Im trying to understand this with a God beeing outside time. If he is also in time, what time? Our time? And if he is outside time, he wouldn't be able to do anything. Since time is no object, anything that exist has always existed since there is no past to create it in. The existance would also stand completely still as I mentioned, every part of the universe's history is beeing done over and over again. Like a endless amount of waves, beeing constantly made at the beginning of the universe and disapears at the end. Moving in the speed of time, but nothing is actually moving (like a wave, the water is standing still, its the wave that moves).

Then if God is looking at us outside time, how can we be in time? How can you look at time, outside time?

How can eternity be? The fact that you don't understand it or cannot explain what it is does not have anything to do with it being real. I don't understand your problem with a concept that posits some reality is subject to time and some reality is not subject to time.

 

[JBrian]

JBrian, sorry to be so pedantic, but I suspect the notion of something existing 'outside of time' is nothing more than a nonsense employed to get around some problems in religious doctrine.

I understand that, but is just simply isn't the case.

'Eternal' (lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning) is a temporal word, how can we use a temporal word to describe something that is (considered) atemporal.

Because of the doctrine of analogy. We must use analogical concepts when talking about God. Being itself is analogical.

'Act' is simply shorthand for 'action', again a temporal word.

Not in Aristotelian/Thomistic metaphysics. Act means pure existence with no potency, that is potential for change.

Why not, where have you learnt this ?

Because there must be a beginning to change, otherwise change would never have started.

Why must there be something that does not change?

Because there can't be an infinite number of changes. that is like having a rope in mid air; it is not anchored to anything. Something must have started the change, or no change could have taken place. Change can only occur within time. If change is eternal that means the universe (since it is changing) is also eternal, which is impossible because that would mean that we have traversed an infinite amount of time. However, an infinite amount of time cannot be traversed since there would be no beginning and no end, and more time could always be added prior to this moment. We are at the end of time (this moment). Therefore the universe is not eternal, and change is not an infinite series.

Are we sure, do you share your gods inerrancy on this ?

I don't know what "do you share your gods inerrancy on this" means.

Could you possibly be wrong ?

Of course, and so could you.

JBrian, I fail to see any information here, just a series of stated 'facts' with no data, evidence, reason or logic to back them up.

I have given you plenty of reasons and evidence. What is your counter argument? Please explain how change can occur in an infinite series. Please explain how the universe can be eternal and we be where we are in time.

 

[JonF]

I have allready discuss this in the "Why is there evil in the world" thread, but I feel I have to place this issue with the right lable on it. In the former thread we didn't come to an agreement about how God can be all mighty and humans still have a free will (please read that post and argue it here). I really want a conclution to this.

I don’t know where that post is and I’m kinda pressed for time right now so I can’t dig it up , but please feel free to post a quote of your argument from it.

Another reason why God cannot be all mighty. God has known the future since he created the universe. If he now, 13.7 billion years later dessides to change something, the knowledge he had at the beginning of the universe about the future (which God changed) would be wrong, right? So if he dessided at the beginning of the universe how the future will be, he does not have to power to change it. So either his knowledge will be wrong (he not beeing all mighty) or he does not have the power to change anything (he not beeing allmighty).

I’m Going to put your argument in standard form so it will be a bit easier to discuss.

1a) God knows everything about any given time
1b) Anything known must be actual
2a) God is all powerful
2b) It follows that since God is all powerful he can do any action, or there would be something outside of his power.
2c) This means God can do something specific, namely change some event (from what his knowledge dictates) at a specific time.
3a) from 1b and 2c we have something that is actual and something that isn’t actual, this is a contradiction.

Thus either God doesn’t know everything about any given time, or God isn’t all powerful.

There is a much more general version of this argument and that is the one I will address since it will address all instances of it:
1) God can make X at time t actual since he is all powerful.
2) God can at the same time make ~X at time t actual since he is all powerful.
3) X and ~X is a contradiction
4) God can not be all powerful.

First I will go over the two typical responses to this argument I don’t like, and explain why I think they are unsound.

God is outside of time: This is irrelevant to the argument.

God can’t do things against his nature: This makes an equivocation error on the word “can’t”. When you say something can’t do something because it’s against their nature what you mean is you can’t still be that thing and perform some action. For example I couldn’t murder a small child in cold blood. If I was to do so, I wouldn’t be me anymore, because that action would contradict a defining principle of my character. Now it is perfectly within my physical power to murder a small child, I am physical capable of it. The argument uses the word “can’t” in the second sense, while the response uses it in the first sense.

Here is my response: The universe is consistent is just one of those assumed principles we really don’t have any justification to believe but do. Much like Hume’s “the past is representative of the future” we have no real reason to believe this, but it seems like it should be the case so much we do. Supposing there is an all powerful being implies it is possible the universe could possibly be not consistent, by the general form of the argument I gave. My response is so what? God contradicts nature all the time in the bible, miracles, creation, people rising from the dead, etc. Why do we think reality is necessarily consistent? So yes, God could make reality a walking contradiction if that’s what he wanted, but he doesn’t. It is with in his power to make X and ~X though, but it goes against his nature so he chooses not to.

 

[JonF]

Could anyone explain to me what 'outside of time' means, I suspect it is nothing more than agenda driven religious semantics.

An object is outside of time if and only if it isn’t governed by a linear progression of events.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Existing outside of time, as stated, needs a definition of time. Anyone here qualified in quantum physics and relativity? Unless someone is, we can't obtain a concrete explination. But, I use the word meaning existance with the singluarity, the one which went boom, and made a big bang. Also, one might considered events in the dead center of black holes and white holes outside of time.

Let me put in clearly, what we have here is a question based on a lack of knowledge, one which everyone here shares for no physicist who could event frequent this site would have full understanding.

Here is an example. If the moon is made of cheese, why doesn't it go bad? This is a question founded on a lack of knowledge, and so there does not exist a logical answer.

 

[Mortensen]

Agin I ask: How can God look at time, outside of time? I really don't think we are getting anywere. This is kind of complex and there is limits to how far we can think. The understandig of God is kind of hard Ive realized that

 

[lawtonfogle]

As you said, God cannot be understood. If you decide not to believe in Him becuase of this, I will try to understand. I myself can believe in Him even though this is true, but I am unable to understand the reasoning of one who can't, and may always be that way.

 

[Telephone]

How can eternity be? The fact that you don't understand it or cannot explain what it is does not have anything to do with it being real.

Or fanciful fiction.

I don't understand your problem with a concept that posits some reality is subject to time and some reality is not subject to time.

If the concept is so simple, so everyday, perhaps you can explain it in some detail ?

 

[Im_A]

I have allready discuss this in the "Why is there evil in the world" thread, but I feel I have to place this issue with the right lable on it. In the former thread we didn't come to an agreement about how God can be all mighty and humans still have a free will (please read that post and argue it here). I really want a conclution to this.

Another reason why God cannot be all mighty. God has known the future since he created the universe. If he now, 13.7 billion years later dessides to change something, the knowledge he had at the beginning of the universe about the future (which God changed) would be wrong, right? So if he dessided at the beginning of the universe how the future will be, he does not have to power to change it. So either his knowledge will be wrong (he not beeing all mighty) or he does not have the power to change anything (he not beeing allmighty).

i'm just going to ask these questions and i'm asking them graciously

because human beings have the power of choice (which is even debatable within itself) that means God isn't almighty? how can anybody critique God, or even praise God because of actions that human beings take upon themselves?

bad actions and good actions of human beings dictate God as being almighty? isn't that like being guilty by association if that is the case?

would you want some god to step in your life and dictate your actions against your will to prove that It/He is all-mighty?

and the last question, our actions are finite(i'm saying that because the actions take place and everyone dies, and eventually if actoins are done upon people, the generations will pass and the effect will be no more), they end, so how can a finite action judge a being who is supposedly infinite?

i'll wait for your answer to go on with discussion i'm just asking these questions to you, so i'm not just blarring out loud about this topic. i believe this topic is a tough one to find a conclusive answer. i think you bring up good questions/topics for discussion in this area, but i think we all need to remember we're human being and we're trying to understand a being who is not of our makeup, who isn't human. so a conclusive answer i don't believe is possible, but a good speculative answer/reasoning? of course for that