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God and Time

Moral Orel

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No, an infinite regress of events (in our time, where time flows in one direction) is impossible. Please explain how it's not.
Nice try. The burden of proof is on you in this situation. Anything is possible until it is proven to not be possible.

If I said that I can make my skin turn bright blue, who is the burden of proof on? Me to show you that I can, or you to prove that I can't?

You need to prove that an infinite regress of events is impossible to move your argument forward. You made an assertion, and you need to back it up with evidence. I don't need to prove your assertions wrong.
 
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elopez

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I'm not sure, but I think zippy may be stating the obvious: that a timeless being is trapped. It cannot move. It cannot even contemplate moving.
As I stated to which you also ignored, this reasoning does not follow.

You're confusing reasoning with discrusive reasoning. God does not need to reason as such not because He is timeless rather as He is omniscient. He doesn't need to contemplate as He already knows the conclusion. Even if God were in time so to say He wouldn't need to reason discrusively.
 
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elopez

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It says he is eternal. I don't know where it says he is "timeless." Perhaps you have a source?
"..but He does not exist in time, so as to be subject to temporal relations: His self-existence is timeless." From the Catholic Encyclopedia. Augustine and Boethius both advocated a timeless view. Anselm aslo had a timeless view of God. Aquinas as well.

It is because God is eternal that He is timeless. The concept is littered in the above mentioned's works. I haven't seen many Catholics, especially ones I've talked to on here or have seen comments of, say otherwise.

You've implied it. I already addressed why here.
No, you say I imply it when I have not and claimed nothing of the sort. I said God without the universe does not move but that He could.

And I questioned that to which no reply was given. I asked for evidence for your idea and got none. Until then it's not appropriately addressed.

I am suggesting, via Ratzinger, that your understanding of timelessness with respect to God is flawed. For example, you think God moves and that his motion is measured by time:
What you quoted was a question I proposed to the OP, who earlier in the thread agreed that God is outside of time (as well as temporal), to expand on what he thinks it means for God to be atemporal.

When I said "All God has to do is act or move and time is created as a result" it was in relation to my earlier claim that for events to occur, time must exist. The moment of creation is when God first moves which thus could not be measured by anything let alone time yet specifically from His will. At any rate, obviously that is not God in an atemporal state, so that couldn't be what I think of timelessness as you oddly suggest.

As Ratzinger points out, that rationale is distinctively modern. I'm opposing the clump of problems associated with the claim, "God is timeless until he moves."
Then I'd have to point out you are both incorrect and the idea of divine timelessness is rooted in historical theology writings, especially from the above theologians mentioned. So far, I don't think you're doing a stand up job of opposing much of that.

Many of the positions in this thread are manifesting as somewhat undisciplined thoughts about time. Presumably very few have historical philosophical pedigree. Because of this I don't intend to get into long arguments with any number of intuitions about time, but would rather simply encourage folks to familiarize themselves with one or more established positions in order to provide some coherent sources (and premises) for their beliefs.
I haven't said much of time except for what I told you I did above. You keep being critical of views of time yet aren't stating your own or any other logical concept of what it could then be.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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As I stated to which you also ignored, this reasoning does not follow.

You're confusing reasoning with discrusive reasoning. God does not need to reason as such not because He is timeless rather as He is omniscient. He doesn't need to contemplate as He already knows the conclusion. Even if God were in time so to say He wouldn't need to reason discrusively.
But we aren't talking about reasoning per se, but about the ability to plan, make decisions, and execute those decisions by initiating action.
 
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elopez

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But we aren't talking about reasoning per se, but about the ability to plan, make decisions, and execute those decisions by initiating action.
Reason is necessary for the ability to plan and make decisions. Either way God doesn't need to plan or make decisions as He has knowledge of everything.
 
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elopez

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How can he act on that knowledge while also being timeless?
I have seriously answered this more than once.

God being timeless means He is unchanging. That doesn't mean He cannot change. The only reason you gave for this assumption is presumably circular.
 
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ScottA

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"..but He does not exist in time, so as to be subject to temporal relations: His self-existence is timeless." From the Catholic Encyclopedia. Augustine and Boethius both advocated a timeless view. Anselm aslo had a timeless view of God. Aquinas as well.

It is because God is eternal that He is timeless. The concept is littered in the above mentioned's works. I haven't seen many Catholics, especially ones I've talked to on here or have seen comments of, say otherwise.
Timeless, is correct: "I AM" says it all.
 
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Moral Orel

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Timeless, is correct: "I AM" says it all.
I don't think that says enough about temporality as you seem to think. "I am" can also just mean "I exist right now". I'm not saying that God isn't everlasting, or even that he doesn't stretch infinitely towards the past, but that statement doesn't make as broad of a claim as you claim it does.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I have seriously answered this more than once.

God being timeless means He is unchanging. That doesn't mean He cannot change. The only reason you gave for this assumption is presumably circular.
But that does mean he cannot change; he is changeless. What you are claiming is contradictory.
 
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ScottA

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I don't think that says enough about temporality as you seem to think. "I am" can also just mean "I exist right now". I'm not saying that God isn't everlasting, or even that he doesn't stretch infinitely towards the past, but that statement doesn't make as broad of a claim as you claim it does.
No, a "broad" statement is what is written about him by those within time. But when he describes himself, he narrows it right down to who and when, without any room for misunderstanding or error: "I AM."

It's simple. It's to the point. Simply the facts.

If we need to elaborate, or analyze the matter, get philosophical...he has already laid it out for us, as "yesterday, today, and forever." Yet, when Christ's time counts down from his time to his hour, in that moment, in the twinkling of an eye, he identifies himself as God, and the answer is simply: "I AM."

And my answer, as well.
 
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elopez

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But that does mean he cannot change; he is changeless. What you are claiming is contradictory.
No, it would be contradictory to say God can change while timeless and remain timeless. Changeless does not equate to cannot change. Changeless simply means God does not change.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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No, it would be contradictory to say God can change while timeless and remain timeless. Changeless does not equate to cannot change. Changeless simply means God does not change.
How do you change when you are also timeless and therefore changeless?
 
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elopez

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How do you change when you are also timeless and therefore changeless?
Move. Again, you're working under a
substantival view of time so that it must be the case that in order for events to occur time would have to exist.

Why is that the case? Time exists when an event occurs.

Changeless doesn't seem to indicate a modal property of immutablity. If a timeless being changed, it wouldn't be timeless anymore.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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He can't move. To move is to interrupt timelessness and timelessness cannot be interrupted.
Again, you're working under a
substantival view of time so that it must be the case that in order for events to occur time would have to exist.

Why is that the case? Time exists when an event occurs.

Changeless doesn't seem to indicate a modal property of immutablity. If a timeless being changed, it wouldn't be timeless anymore.
On the contrary, it would never have been timeless at all. You can't interrupt timelessness. There's no interruption to be had, no change to be made. You appear to be describing a being that is still, but not timeless.

Movement also poses a problem for a being that is also apparently spaceless.
 
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elopez

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He can't move. To move is to interrupt timelessness and timelessness cannot be interrupted.
Like I pointed out earlier, this is rather circular thinking, and as such no reason to think God cannot move.

On the contrary, it would never have been timeless at all. You can't interrupt timelessness. There's no interruption to be had, no change to be made.
Addressed above.

You appear to be describing a being that is still, but not timeless.
Well tenselessly true propositions are temporally indexed. These propositions are true at all times. The statement, "God exists timelessly without creation" is a temporal index, so it tenselessly true and true at all time.

Movement also poses a problem for a being that is also apparently spaceless.
I suppose that would depend on what you mean by "spaceless" and how it applies to God.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Like I pointed out earlier, this is rather circular thinking, and as such no reason to think God cannot move.
In what way is it circular? Timelessness implies changelessness; no interruptions, not even to create.
Well tenselessly true propositions are temporally indexed. These propositions are true at all times. The statement, "God exists timelessly without creation" is a temporal index, so it tenselessly true and true at all time.
Given that "creation" includes the creation of time, such a statement seems empty, for reasons already mentioned.
I suppose that would depend on what you mean by "spaceless" and how it applies to God.
Yes, I've noticed that about these arguments. God apparently creates time by moving (how he is able to interrupt a timeless, changeless stasis is not clear), even though there are no spatial dimensions for him to move in, nor even a body for him to move with. I suppose you could say that he moves mentally. But the problem of timelessness makes this dubious also. So we are left with a being that apparently resembles a disembodied mind that has nowhere to move and is trapped in a timeless stasis. He is immovable, immobilised, and effectively powerless to change that situation.
 
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elopez

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In what way is it circular? Timelessness implies changelessness; no interruptions, not even to create.
"To move is to interrupt timelessness and timelessness cannot be interrupted"

It is plainly circular. You need to show how timelessness cannot be interrupted. For it could be asked why cannot timelessness be interrupted? To which you'd say "because one cannot move." Why cannot one move? "Because He is timeless."

Given that "creation" includes the creation of time, such a statement seems empty, for reasons already mentioned.
Tenselessly true propositions that are temporally indexed are true nonetheless. I just believe those reasons are no good.

Yes, I've noticed that about these arguments. God apparently creates time by moving (how he is able to interrupt a timeless, changeless stasis is not clear), even though there are no spatial dimensions for him to move in, nor even a body for him to move with. I suppose you could say that he moves mentally. But the problem of timelessness makes this dubious also. So we are left with a being that apparently resembles a disembodied mind that has nowhere to move and is trapped in a timeless stasis. He is immovable, immobilised, and effectively powerless to change that situation.
God is not localized in any one or various spots. His presence is related to the effect He can have in the universe, which is throughout it all. Remember God is also omnipotent, and if so willed to move He would have the power to do so.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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"To move is to interrupt timelessness and timelessness cannot be interrupted"

It is plainly circular. You need to show how timelessness cannot be interrupted.
It follows from the definition of it. You appeared to agree earlier: "If time does not exist, everything is static. There must be time for there to be movement. There must be time for change to occur."
For it could be asked why cannot timelessness be interrupted?
To ask that question is to betray a lack of understanding about what timelessness entails.
God is not localized in any one or various spots. His presence is related to the effect He can have in the universe, which is throughout it all. Remember God is also omnipotent, and if so willed to move He would have the power to do so.
I don't think you understand how immobilising timelessness is. What good is omnipotence if one cannot use it? In what sense can one be said to "move" if there are no spatial dimensions to move through? Just what is being "moved" anyway?
 
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Achilles6129

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Nice try. The burden of proof is on you in this situation. Anything is possible until it is proven to not be possible.

You need to prove that an infinite regress of events is impossible to move your argument forward. You made an assertion, and you need to back it up with evidence. I don't need to prove your assertions wrong.

If time works as we understand it (in a straight line) then an infinite regress is impossible. This can be proven: if you have an infinite series of past events you could never have reached your present event (assuming time runs in a straight line). Therefore, in order to have an infinite regress time would have to run radically different. Perhaps it does for God, perhaps it does not.
 
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