God and Science

[BananaSlug]

Ok, after reading a few other posts I've noticed something I need to immediately attempt to explain. Science cannot ever, nor ever should, attempt to find or verify the existence of a supernatural supreme being.
Why?

Here is an example:

In science, we have to use the scientific method to explore our natural world.

Here is a quick little experiment. I want to find out if katydids are green because of the food they eat.

Observation: Katydids are green

Hypothesis: Katydids are green because they eat green food

Experiment: Now I need to test my hypothesis. I set up my control group, let's just feed them grass. Now I set up three test groups: one that I feed red food, one that I feed blue food, and one that I feed purple food. I feed them for one week.

Results: After one week I checked the results of my experiment. After one week all of the katydids were still green! I was wrong!

Now I have to rethink my hypothesis. Katydids are not green because of the food they eat, they are green to match their surroundings!

With any scientific experiment or research, one must be prepared to accept that the results may be different than what you want them to be. As an honest scientist one must never alter results to fit what you want but accept the answer either way.

By attempting to bring God into science Christians are actually doing more harm than good. Though science can only explain the natural using natural terms (therefore excluding anything supernatural that cannot be reliably and consistently observed and tested) if we were to ever to attempt and construct a "test" for God we must be aware that there are two possible answers, he exists or he doesn't exist. If you want to try and bring God into science are you prepared to accept that God may not exist?

It is much better to leave God out of science and let science do its job in telling us how we are here and let religion tell us why we are here.

Do any of you who accept the Bible literally offer sacrifices for healing from sickness or do you go to a doctor?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Good thread.

Sthephen J. Gould, in attempt to keep creationists out of his hair so to speak, came up with NOMA, or non-overlapping magisteria.

That is to say, I'll keep science out of religion, if you keep religion out of science.

 

[Ectezus]

Great explanation.

It's ridiculous to see so many creationists using the word 'scientific' as an adjective to strengthen their point while in fact there is nothing scientific about it.
It even makes it ironic when they are arguing against science.

- Ectezus

 

[AV1611VET]

Here is a quick little experiment. I want to find out if katydids are green because of the food they eat.

Nice --- now try this one --- and please answer truthfully with just the information I give you, okay?

You're a chemist.

You test a new solution on laboratory mice --- no ill-effects on them whatsoever.

You try it out on a female volunteer --- it alleviates all negative symptoms without any side effects on her at all --- ever.

What's the next step?

 

[BananaSlug]

Nice --- now try this one --- and please answer truthfully with just the information I give you, okay?

You're a chemist.

You test a new solution on laboratory mice --- no ill-effects on them whatsoever.

You try it out on a volunteer --- it alleviates all negative symptoms without any immediate side effects for months and months.

What's the next step?

It's not that simple. Was the chemical used on pregnant mice? On young mice? What symptoms does it alleviate? Does it actually cure the illness or just cover up the symptoms? Why try it on one volunteer? You need to do a double-blind study.

Get 1000 volunteers. Give 500 a placebo and give 500 the drug. You need to see if there is a statistical advantage of the actual drug vs the placebo. If the drug passes enough tests and actually does not have any immediate side effects then pass the drug. If later on it turns out it does have side effects, either pull the drug off the market (if the side effects outweigh the illness it is trying to alleviate) or issue a disclaimer.

I answered truthfully, you did not give enough information. What did it have to do with the OP?

 

[AV1611VET]

It's not that simple. Was the chemical used on pregnant mice? On young mice? What symptoms does it alleviate? Does it actually cure the illness or just cover up the symptoms? Why try it on one volunteer? You need to do a double-blind study.

Get 1000 volunteers. Give 500 a placebo and give 500 the drug. You need to see if there is a statistical advantage of the actual drug vs the placebo. If the drug passes enough tests and actually does not have any immediate side effects then pass the drug. If later on it turns out it does have side effects, either pull the drug off the market (if the side effects outweigh the illness it is trying to alleviate) or issue a disclaimer.

I answered truthfully, you did not give enough information. What did it have to do with the OP?

No matter what you do --- on mice or women --- it does what it was created to do --- alleviate all negative symptoms with absolutely no side-effects on the subjects. 10 women, 100 women, 1000 women --- blind test, double-blind test --- everything works like a charm.

 

[BananaSlug]

No matter what you do --- on mice or women --- it does what it was created to do --- alleviate all negative symptoms with absolutely no side-effects on the subjects. 10 women, 100 women, 1000 women --- blind test, double-blind test --- everything works like a charm.

In that case then it would be 100% fine to take it to market. What's the point you are trying to make?

 

[RyanLeeParis]

The scientific method sucks. It can't explain everything. People should go with their eyes and especially their feelings when believing in something. Science may be able to discover things, but nothing beats good old fashioned wisdom. I'd think, anyone who is wise would realize something coming from nothing is impossible, therefore God exists.

 

[BananaSlug]

The scientific method sucks. It can't explain everything.

That was the point of the OP? The scientific method can be used for ANYTHING in the natural world. It can NEVER be used for supernatural events/beings/etc.

People should go with their eyes and especially their feelings when believing in something.

Be careful with that. So my eyes tell me the sun revolves around the earth, the earth does not revolve around it. My feelings tell me that a bowling ball will fall faster than an apple. "Feelings" have no place in the realm of science. We must accept the results of our research regardless of our feelings.

Science may be able to discover things, but nothing beats good old fashioned wisdom.

How exactly do you get "good old fashioned wisdom"? I always thought one gained wisdom through experience, which is in essence the scientific method.

I'd think, anyone who is wise would realize something coming from nothing is impossible, therefore God exists.

What "came from nothing"? This is about the scientific method and why religion should never enter the realm of science. It has nothing to do with the Big Bang, Astrophysics, etc (even though they are all a part of science). I hope you have something more to add than just a bunch of PRATTs. And if we can ever show that something can come from nothing, does that mean God doesn't exist?

 

[RichardT]

Though science can only explain the natural using natural terms (therefore excluding anything supernatural that cannot be reliably and consistently observed and tested) if we were to ever to attempt and construct a "test" for God we must be aware that there are two possible answers, he exists or he doesn't exist. If you want to try and bring God into science are you prepared to accept that God may not exist?

It is much better to leave God out of science and let science do its job in telling us how we are here and let religion tell us why we are here.

Some claims made of God can be tested by science. Some examples are prayer, healing, moving mountains, creationism, basically any claim of God's supposed interaction with the universe. Every single claim made of God has failed the test of falsifiability.

When existence is defined as what we can test and observe, it is a correct statement to say that no Gods exist.

 

[BananaSlug]

Some claims made of God can be tested by science. Some examples are prayer, healing, moving mountains, creationism, basically any claim of God's supposed interaction with the universe. Every single claim made of God has failed the test of falsifiability.

When existence is defined as what we can test and observe, it is a correct statement to say that no Gods exist.

Those tests are not necessarily testing for the presence of a god, just if the particular action has merit. Prayer can help people heal faster even it is just them believing that someone is praying for them. Much like the placebo effect can actually heal people as well.

The only test I can think of would have to use a mixture of Biblical verses and pseudo-scientific research.

22 Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Therefore let them give us two bulls; and let them choose one bull for themselves, cut it in pieces, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it; and I will prepare the other bull, and lay it on the wood, but put no fire under it. 24 Then you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD; and the God who answers by fire, He is God.”
So all the people answered and said, “It is well spoken.”
25 Now Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.”
26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, “O Baal, hear us!” But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made.
27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, “Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.
30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come near to me.” So all the people came near to him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, “Israel shall be your name.”[b] 32 Then with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD; and he made a trench around the altar large enough to hold two seahs of seed. 33 And he put the wood in order, cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood, and said, “Fill four waterpots with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice and on the wood.” 34 Then he said, “Do it a second time,” and they did it a second time; and he said, “Do it a third time,” and they did it a third time. 35 So the water ran all around the altar; and he also filled the trench with water.
36 And it came to pass, at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near and said, “LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. 37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again.”
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 Now when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, “The LORD, He is God! The LORD, He is God!” 1 Kings 18:22-38

Now as we see, Elijah told over 400 of Baal's prophets to sacrifice a bull and call upon their god to consume the offering by fire. While they were trying, he openly mocked their god. After they were finished, he said a simple prayer and God consumed his offering, the wood, the water, and the stones.

23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” Mark 9:23

20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. Matthew 17:20

14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 1 John 5:14

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. John 14:13-14

Okay, here are a number of verses that seem to say that if you have enough faith you can ask anything in Christ's name and it will happen. Christ even said those with faith could do greater works than he did! Elijah was able to call upon God to consume his offering with fire. Jesus fed 5000 with a few loaves and fish. Jesus healed a withered arm, a lame man, and many other miracles that are not possible today without modern medicine (and some are impossible even with modern medicine).

So here is a simple "test" for the faithful. Pray to Jesus to create an apple ex nihilo right in front of me, right now. Doing so will definitely glorify the Father. If you cannot pray to Christ and create an apple right in front of me, either you do not have enough faith or God doesn't exist. God created the entire universe in 6 days, sent plagues to Egypt, parted the Red Sea, and consumed a waterlogged offering (including the stones). I'm sure creating a little apple ex nihilo would be no problem.

 

[LightHorseman]

The scientific method sucks. It can't explain everything. People should go with their eyes and especially their feelings when believing in something. Science may be able to discover things, but nothing beats good old fashioned wisdom. I'd think, anyone who is wise would realize something coming from nothing is impossible, therefore God exists.

Yep. Thus the Earth is flat and at the bright centre of the universe!

 

[RichardT]

Okay, here are a number of verses that seem to say that if you have enough faith you can ask anything in Christ's name and it will happen. Christ even said those with faith could do greater works than he did! Elijah was able to call upon God to consume his offering with fire. Jesus fed 5000 with a few loaves and fish. Jesus healed a withered arm, a lame man, and many other miracles that are not possible today without modern medicine (and some are impossible even with modern medicine).

So here is a simple "test" for the faithful. Pray to Jesus to create an apple ex nihilo right in front of me, right now. Doing so will definitely glorify the Father. If you cannot pray to Christ and create an apple right in front of me, either you do not have enough faith or God doesn't exist. God created the entire universe in 6 days, sent plagues to Egypt, parted the Red Sea, and consumed a waterlogged offering (including the stones). I'm sure creating a little apple ex nihilo would be no problem.

So you agree with my statement? Of course this is testable and it fails.

 

[LightHorseman]

I'm looking forward to AV explaining how his new drug scenario proves evolution is false! Maybe soimeone should start a thread and call it "AV's 100% efficacious no side effect double blind test challenge"!

 

[BananaSlug]

I wonder if any Christians will even try. If an apple were to poof up right in front of me, I'll accept God and Christ right now and devote my life to converting others to Christianity.

 

[BananaSlug]

I'm looking forward to AV explaining how his new drug scenario proves evolution is false! Maybe soimeone should start a thread and call it "AV's 100% efficacious no side effect double blind test challenge"!

I'm really wondering what point he is trying to eventually make. Hopefully not another "thalidomide" discussion. I want to know how it relates to the OP!

 

[LightHorseman]

I'm really wondering what point he is trying to eventually make. Hopefully not another "thalidomide" discussion. I want to know how it relates to the OP!

Of course, thalidomide was never believed to have zero side effects with 100% affect, so he couldn't possibly be discussing that.

 

[BananaSlug]

True. I guess we'll have to wait to find out!

 

[thaumaturgy]

Some claims made of God can be tested by science. Some examples are prayer, healing, moving mountains, creationism, basically any claim of God's supposed interaction with the universe. Every single claim made of God has failed the test of falsifiability.

When existence is defined as what we can test and observe, it is a correct statement to say that no Gods exist.

Richard,
As I recall you used to be a creationist, right? (or am I confusing you with another poster). What was it that finally altered your views on religion and "naturalism"?

As for the OP, I know a lot of scientists who are religious folks. But what I usually see is that they are able to separate out the science from the faith stuff. I don't know any of them who go into the lab and, when faced with an unexpected result, assume God's Will was in play.

I, personally, see no need for a God, but there are many out there who feel it fills a need within them. I have to admit I find it fascinating to see that interplay, but I also know that being a religious person does not necessarily mean one cannot be a scientist.

For me, the path to atheism went through some of the same "hypothesis testing" formalisms I use as a scientist, but that's not the way it works for everyone, and certainly isn't a perfect path.

 

[Cabal]

The scientific method sucks. It can't explain everything. People should go with their eyes and especially their feelings when believing in something. Science may be able to discover things, but nothing beats good old fashioned wisdom. I'd think, anyone who is wise would realize something coming from nothing is impossible, therefore God exists.

The scientific method utterly trumps triteness like the above.