God and Homosexuality

[Nazarene77]

Just an interesting tidbit I came up with on God and Homosexuality:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. --Romans 1:26-27 NIV

Notice the words 'lust' and 'perversion' is used here. That's what homosexuality is all about: lust. Lust after the body-type of someone of the same sex. Indeed, I do believe it is possible to be born this way, but that doesn't mean one should act on this lust.

Now look what the Bible has to say about love:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. --1 Corinthians 13 NIV

WOW!!!

This is the the kind of selfless love that goes against the natural human inclination. It is a giving, expect nothing in return kind of love. This love is based on the deliberate choice of the one who loves rather than the worthiness of the one who is loved. Now that is awesome and full of power! This is God's love.

Now look at this:

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. --2 Timothy 2:22 NIV

This proves that it is possible to flee from any lifestyle which contradicts what God wants for each and every one of us.

So, if you choose your partner out of lust you are living a life of sin and perversion. Choose your partner out of love and you are doing what is righteous and good.

The same goes for homosexuals. Homosexuals can either lust after those of the same sex and live in sin, or they can learn how to truly love someone of the opposite sex and live righteously. For out of love, a homosexual should be even be able to "make love" to someone of the same sex out of love and not out of lust.

This makes very good sense because their have been people who have been gay and have learned to love, thus leaving their perversive lifestyles and pursuing a lifestyle of love, peace, and righteousness.

Note that all of the above passages were written by Paul the Apostle.

 

[Job_38]

Here is a good sermon over it. The first link has the notes, the second the actual sermon.

http://www.evbc.org/xweb/comms/1/objects/TS_020203.pdf

http://www.evbc.org/xweb/comms/MediaRedirector.aspx?n=1&a=1936

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

What an offensive bit of tripe you just posted. It's just one big lie.

To say that homosexuals cannot truly love and are only lusting after each other is a flat out ridiculous lie.

Get over yourself and your religious dogma.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

This thread is evidently a deliberate insult out of ignorance.

 

 

 

[Nazarene77]

You know, it's one thing to disagree, but please abstain from disagreeing so harshly. I know I'm not a mod and I am talking to you like a mod, but just so you know I have reported you.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Oh please...

...and what you posted isn't harsh libelous nonsense?

I'm defending myself against your defamation that isn't grounded in any sense of reality or in any sense of what it's like to be homosexual.

 

[Nazarene77]

3rd April 2003 at 10:11 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #5

Oh please...

...and what you posted isn't harsh libelous nonsense?

I'm defending myself against your defamation that isn't grounded in any sense of reality or in any sense of what it's like to be homosexual.

Defending yourself? Understand that I am not attacking homosexuals, but only preaching at them. It is not within your rights to attack me even I did attack you first.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Yes, you are attacking homosexuals, and I'm highly offended by your claim that homosexuals cannot truly love one another.

Furthermore, I don't care what you think my rights are. I have a right to free speech, and how far that extends depends on the moderators of the board, but I won't sit idly while you attack homosexuals. It most certainly is in my rights. I don't really even think I've even really attacked you except to point out a few facts: that your post was libelous and insulting. Did you not even think about how your post might affect others? The only attack on you I made was to say that you should get over yourself and your religious dogma. I feel perfectly justified in saying that because you are basing your insults disguised as preaching on dogmatic beliefs instead of reality. Disguise it as "preaching" all you want, but I don't buy it one bit when you make accusations and assumptions (again) not grounded in any sense of reality or any sense of what it's actually like to be a homosexual.

 

[Nazarene77]

No, attacking would mean "the use of violence." This is just pure preaching.

Bliss, this is a Philosophy and Morality Forum, so what did you expect? Now go on and "defend yourself" in other Forums, but you can't "defend yourself" here. Sorry.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

The word attack, as a trasitive verb, and in the definition I intended when I commented: "To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner."

You criticized homosexuals strongly. You attack homosexuals by claiming they cannot actually love each other and then saying that homosexuals need to love the opposite sex.

What do I expect? I can't defend myself here? Nonsense.

There is no reasonable justification for your comments nor is there any rational justification to consider homosexuality wrong in the first place. I can most certainly defend myself here. Pretending like your sense of morality that does not allow individual thought and rationality is the only one that exists is simply not true. I can choose to defend myself here if I like, and I will definitely choose to do so if you are just going to make insulting comments.

 

[Nazarene77]

This is a Forum to discuss Morality and Philosophy, not to attack someone else's philosophy.

You have been reported twice now.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I did discuss morality and philosophy.

Your comments are lies not grounded in any sense of reality.

It is a flat out lie to say homosexuals cannot love each other and only do what they do out of physical lust.

And if you are going to attack and criticize homosexuals, I am going to attack your ill-conceived morality and philosophy.

 

[Nazarene77]

It may be a lie to you, but that's what the Bible says. This is a Christian Forum Site, so WHAT did you expect?

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I don't care if that's what you think the Bible says or not.

The point is that it's not consistent with reality, therefore it's a lie. It is simply false to say that homosexuals cannot love each other. Homosexual love can be just as fulfilling and selfless as heterosexual love can be. That is a fact whether you or your religious beliefs like it or not.

I know this is a Christian site, but did you know that many Christians don't have any problem whatsoever with homosexuality? That's because they see reality and recognize the fact that there is no rational basis to consider homosexuals as deceitful people who don't really love each other or to consider them wrong.

Not all Christians hold the same beliefs as you do...not to mention the fact that I would expect better from people who claim to "love thy neighbor" than to read insulting lies.

I have nothing more to say to you. Anyone with any critical thinking ability can realize what you posted about homosexuals is a lie, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Nazarene77]

Dear God, How long does it take for a Moderator to respond to this?

I'm not continuing this discussion any further until a mod comes in here. I'd keep the tone down if I were you. The more you do wrong, the more you'll get yourself in trouble.

 

[RunningBothRaces]

No, bliss has every right to defend/post here if he chooses, even though his view are different from yours or mine.

To bliss's argument, I believe that homosexuals can love, on at least one level of love, yet you need to specify to whom, and on what level of love. And I do believe that we can all agree that murder is wrong, yet we don't all need to be murderers to gain this knowledge. You don't have to do something wrong to know it is.

To Nazarene, I believe you said something about people being born homosexual, but when I looked back I could not find that post. But if you consider it logically, homosexuality cannot be a genetic trait, otherwise there would be none. Other than that, there is nothing else that determines what you are when you are born. (Besides God, but I doubt he would make a man homosexual.) Homosexuality is a choice; race and gender is something you are born with.

And once again to Bliss, you could only call the statements Nazarene truely false, in your opinion, if you yourself do not believe in the principles found in the bible. If you do not, I see a long road ahead for this debate, but if you do, then you have no ground to stand on with your claim.

 

[RunningBothRaces]

3rd April 2003 at 09:04 PM Nazarene77 said this in Post #14

Dear God, How long does it take for a Moderator to respond to this?

I'm not continuing this discussion any further until a mod comes in here. I'd keep the tone down if I were you. The more you do wrong, the more you'll get yourself in trouble.

Nazarene, given that bliss does not see eye to eye with you, or even with teachings in the Bible, there has been no reason to call a mod, at any point in this debate.  He has violated none of the rules, and he IS presenting HIS philosophy and Morality, in this forum designated for Open Discussion & Debate.

 

[Nazarene77]

3rd April 2003 at 11:04 PM Needing Help said this in Post #15 To Nazarene, I believe you said something about people being born homosexual, but when I looked back I could not find that post. But if you consider it logically, homosexuality cannot be a genetic trait, otherwise there would be none. Other than that, there is nothing else that determines what you are when you are born. (Besides God, but I doubt he would make a man homosexual.) Homosexuality is a choice; race and gender is something you are born with.

You're right. It's not genetic, but it is a disorder. There has been a study about the hypothalamus (in the brain) and it's relation to homosexuality. You can look it up on any search engine by typing 'hypothalamus homosexuality' as your search term; you'll get tons of links, though.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I don't see how I'm doing wrong at all. Keep complaining all you like about the moderation, but you attacked homosexuals based upon a lie. In fact, in my opinion, your post is the one that needs to be toned down. I'm offended and have every right to be by such bigotry.

To Needing Help:

This is not simply about whether I believe the principles in the Bible or not. Clearly what he believes the principles of the Bible to be (which clearly differ from what other people interpret, but that's a whole other story) are irrelavent if his beliefs are not consistent with reality. You said it yourself: homosexuals can love each other. To say otherwise is to ignore reality.

 

[RunningBothRaces]

True, but isn't true that with an amount of training, and use of a particular portion of the brain, it will change to some extent? Or am I just spreading another urban legend?

Beside the point, I believe in the statement that
Genetics + Environment = Behavior
I believe that homosexuality is due to environment entirely, and not in the least to genetics.

 

[RunningBothRaces]

3rd April 2003 at 09:11 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #18

To Needing Help:

This is not simply about whether I believe the principles in the Bible or not. Clearly what he believes the principles of the Bible to be (which clearly differ from what other people interpret, but that's a whole other story) are irrelavent if his beliefs are not consistent with reality. You said it yourself: homosexuals can love each other. To say otherwise is to ignore reality.

Yes, but in what FORM of love?  I was primarily thinking of the brotherly love, type of love.  But I would be open to other ideas.  Love has several levels, specify to which you refer.