Getting Water Baptized Twice?

bbbbbbb · Jul 22, 2013

jinc1019 said:
After reading this interesting passage...I had a question for you. What makes you think this incident is a second baptism? It seems like this is the FIRST time the 12 are baptized in the name of Jesus. Prior to this, they were only baptized by John, before Jesus. Were John's baptisms considered valid still?

The fact is that these twelve had been previously baptized, according to the baptism of John the Baptist. There is no question about whether or not they had been baptized. Paul determined that they needed to be baptized again (not the first time for them) with Christian baptism. IOW, he determined that the baptism of John was insufficient.

Now we know that John's baptism was one of repentance, which is in marked contrast to Christian baptism. There were, and are, various baptisms in Judaism today. If a Jew becomes a Christian he is baptized again, even though he underwent baptism previously in his former faith.

In the same way, it is quite possible for a non-Christian to undergo something called baptism in a church. I fail to see any reason that that individual should not be baptized after he becomes a believe in Jesus Christ.

Albion · Jul 22, 2013

jinc1019 said:
Not where I live in Chicago. The closest ACNA Church is in Wheaton, which is not very close at all...and it's a little too charismatic.

There's a long-established REC/ACNA parish in Tinley Park that is not like that.

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

bbbbbbb said:
The fact is that these twelve had been previously baptized, according to the baptism of John the Baptist. There is no question about whether or not they had been baptized. Paul determined that they needed to be baptized again (not the first time for them) with Christian baptism. IOW, he determined that the baptism of John was insufficient.

Now we know that John's baptism was one of repentance, which is in marked contrast to Christian baptism. There were, and are, various baptisms in Judaism today. If a Jew becomes a Christian he is baptized again, even though he underwent baptism previously in his former faith.

In the same way, it is quite possible for a non-Christian to undergo something called baptism in a church. I fail to see any reason that that individual should not be baptized after he becomes a believe in Jesus Christ.

How would you define 'baptism in a church'?

TheDirector · Jul 23, 2013

jinc1019 said:
I know this is going to sound like an odd question but is there any reason explained in the Bible or by the Early Church Fathers why a person cannot be baptized (in water) twice? Once as an infant and once as an adult? The reason I ask is because it seems to me like the debate over infant baptism and believer's baptism is easily solved by simply baptizing twice.

The Early Church was quite clear on not making a mockery of the Sacraments, and that is what this would amount to.

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

TheDirector said:
The Early Church was quite clear on not making a mockery of the Sacraments, and that is what this would amount to.

I don't think this would be a mockery but I think it would have to be a decision made for the 'right' reasons.

Albion · Jul 23, 2013

TheDirector said:
The Early Church was quite clear on not making a mockery of the Sacraments, and that is what this would amount to.

We do know that rebaptisms occurred in the early days of the church, so I'm not sure it's as simple as all that ("mockery"). I say that as one who opposes the idea of rebaptizing.

JCFantasy23 · Jul 23, 2013

Unmerited Favour said:
If that person is not convinced about his first baptism.You said he was forced, but now he has accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.He has found himself out and desires a change.He can rebaptise because the first one he did was not from his heart, and I'm sure he went back into sin afterwards.Baptism requires total repentance and change from our old life to a new one which Jesus gives.

With this kind of example I can understand the reasoning and see a purpose behind it. A person can also be baptised but not believe and be going through the motions to please someone else or just to test the experience. Coming to God with a genuine heart and wanting to be baptised for a pure reason is something else entirely.

Albion · Jul 23, 2013

JCFantasy23 said:
With this kind of example I can understand the reasoning and see a purpose behind it. A person can also be baptised but not believe and be going through the motions to please someone else or just to test the experience. Coming to God with a genuine heart and wanting to be baptised for a pure reason is something else entirely.

It doesn't matter. The Baptism is either valid or it's not. It doesn't become valid (or invalid) because we understand (or don't understand) how God's grace operates. It's like the other sacrament in that regard. Do we say, "That Holy Communion service wasn't real since I wasn't actually put in mind of the Crucifixion while I ate the bread and wine?"

x141 · Jul 23, 2013

bbbbbbb said:
The fact is that these twelve had been previously baptized, according to the baptism of John the Baptist. There is no question about whether or not they had been baptized. Paul determined that they needed to be baptized again (not the first time for them) with Christian baptism. IOW, he determined that the baptism of John was insufficient.

Now we know that John's baptism was one of repentance, which is in marked contrast to Christian baptism. There were, and are, various baptisms in Judaism today. If a Jew becomes a Christian he is baptized again, even though he underwent baptism previously in his former faith.

In the same way, it is quite possible for a non-Christian to undergo something called baptism in a church. I fail to see any reason that that individual should not be baptized after he becomes a believe in Jesus Christ.

One baptism is the coming out of something, the other is the coming into something, or one a death, the other a life.

AVB 2 · Jul 23, 2013

I was baptised twice. Once as a 12 year old (sprinkled.) This first one was done because I had to in order to look "religious" like everyone else who was getting sprinkled. This was in my parents' church where the number one most important thing was looking and sounding nice and sweet and religious; ya know "Christianity" and all that Sunday morning only stuff. After Sunday was over it was back to lusting, cursing, stealing, swindling others like everyone else at that church did.

The second one was done because I had received Christ and discovered real Christianity, ya know the one where the number one thing was glorifying Jesus Christ.

AVB

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

Albion said:
It doesn't matter. The Baptism is either valid or it's not. It doesn't become valid (or invalid) because we understand (or don't understand) how God's grace operates. It's like the other sacrament in that regard. Do we say, "That Holy Communion service wasn't real since I wasn't actually put in mind of the Crucifixion while I ate the bread and wine?"

The Bible emphasizes the importance of our belief, faith, heart etc in regards to salvation. Therefore, if our heart is not right / not accepting... how can one truly be baptized. If we do not yield to God in our heart... how can the baptism be appropriate... Then again, maybe you are meaning something else here but.... like our salvation is not based on us knowing all and having all the knowledge but... Maybe it would be helpful if you clarified?

Whether or not something really happened etc. is different that taking part in a 'rite' with a heart the may not be in sync with what God desires for us.

Albion · Jul 23, 2013

AVB 2 said:
I was baptised twice.

Actually, you were baptized once. But you might have gone through the ceremony more than once.

The second one was done because I had received Christ and discovered real Christianity, ya know the one where the number one thing was glorifying Jesus Christ.

No baptism was required in that situation because you had already been baptized. Receiving Christ -- the most important part of the whole picture -- may, in fact, have been the result of the grace you had received in baptism.

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

AVB 2 said:
I was baptised twice. Once as a 12 year old (sprinkled.) This first one was done because I had to in order to look "religious" like everyone else who was getting sprinkled. This was in my parents' church where the number one most important thing was looking and sounding nice and sweet and religious; ya know "Christianity" and all that Sunday morning only stuff. After Sunday was over it was back to lusting, cursing, stealing, swindling others like everyone else at that church did.

The second one was done because I had received Christ and discovered real Christianity, ya know the one where the number one thing was glorifying Jesus Christ.

AVB

I understand where you are coming from. It's unfortunate that both of us can understand / have experienced this. So much more to Christianity that 'going through the motions'. Our heart and our mind's state matters when we are taking part in these rites. This is so scriptural...that our heart be 'right'.

Albion · Jul 23, 2013

Colleen1 said:
The Bible emphasizes the importance of our belief, faith, heart etc in regards to salvation. Therefore, if our heart is not right / not accepting... how can one truly be baptized.

Understanding this depends upon realizing that the sacrament/ordinance is God reaching out to us, not something we do for our own benefit.

If one were "baptized" as some prank or by a pagan making fun of the ceremony, we might say it was invalid. But that's because it was not administered with the right intention. As for us receiving it, however, there is no prerequisite that we know everything about the nature and doings of God.

We'll NEVER reach that level in this life, if truth be told, but yet people who object to infant baptism feel no hesitation in having their 9-year-old baptized in a Baptist church simply because he's aware enough to say "Jesus loves me." Who really thinks that that amounts to understanding the mystery of God dying for our sins so that we, through Faith in his atoning work, may attain to everlasting life?

abysmul · Jul 23, 2013

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

21...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
1 Peter 3:21,22

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

The example of communion has bee used here and I would produce the following scripture in support of the necessity of a 'right' heart etc:

I Corinthians 11:27
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

Albion said:
Understanding this depends upon realizing that the sacrament/ordinance is God reaching out to us, not something we do for our own benefit.

If one were "baptized" as some prank or by a pagan making fun of the ceremony, we might say it was invalid. But that's because it was not administered with the right intention. As for us receiving it, however, there is no prerequisite that we know everything about the nature and doings of God.

We'll NEVER reach that level in this life, if truth be told, but yet people who object to infant baptism feel no hesitation in having their 9-year-old baptized in a Baptist church simply because he's aware enough to say "Jesus loves me." Who really thinks that that amounts to understanding the mystery of God dying for our sins so that we, through Faith in his atoning work, may attain to everlasting life?

This passage is my point. While we may not ever fully understand all theology etc. the state of our heart and why we make our choices are important.

I Corinthians 11:27
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

So having read that passage, would still then consider the 'rite' to have been 'right' in the eyes of God.

Colleen1 · Jul 23, 2013

abysmul said:
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16

38Peter replied, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

21...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22who has gone into heaven and is at Gods right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
1 Peter 3:21,22

Exactly my point. Our heart matters and motives matter and there are several scriptures in support of that.

x141 · Jul 23, 2013

To be baptized into something means to be enclosed by it. For it to become your identity. It's a trading of garments or an enclosing of His garden.

Albion · Jul 23, 2013

Colleen1 said:
This passage is my point. While we may not ever fully understand all theology etc. the state of our heart and why we make our choices are important.

"Important?" Sure. But we were talking about which Baptisms are valid.

I Corinthians 11:27

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

So having read that passage, would still then consider the 'rite' to have been 'right' in the eyes of God.

Notice please, that there is nothing in that passage that says the Lord's Supper is a sham or invalid if we do not eat and drink it worthily. We will eat and drink to our condemnation if we approach it unworthily, but that doesn't mean that the sacrament/ordinance is invalidated by our mindset--yet that is what you are trying to apply to the other sacrament, Baptism.

Getting Water Baptized Twice?

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