getting up and screaming in church

[Cassidy]

I guess this thread is getting a little silly.

Here we have a lovely lady who attends a church where things are going on that she's questioning. She's asking for opinion. Why can't we discuss this issue as grown ups?

 

[one11]

One11 you're approach to the problem of weather something is right or wrong is to avoid discussing the rightness or wrongness of the problem, instead you say I should learn to deal with it, or, if I can't, then I should leave and find a group of like minded people. I choose to look into the rightness or wrongness of a situation and use the bible as the standard for determining what is right or wrong. The truth will remain the truth weather I go to this church or that church, and it is the truth that I am after.

Now, the above sounds rather cold, and for that I apologize. I merely needed to state my view of this discussion in a clear and objective manner. I really do appreciate your input even though your opinions seem to differ from mine. In fact, as I said before, I welcome your differing opinion. Thank you.

People already showed you scriptures, it's alright.

And since no one on a message board can see into your church service, it's logical to speak to your Pastor about it. Also ask the Pastor what scriptures he's going by. I know of some but don't have the time to look them up at this time. I'm doing other "works" at the moment which are my first responsibility so I can't get you the scriptures at this time, so call up your church right now and speak to some elders on the phone about it or to whomever answers the phone at your church.

 

[Mrs Butterworth]

One11 from the scriptures I was shown, I did not come to that same conclusion.

My reason for posting my question on the forum is two fold. First, it takes me a while to make a decision about something because I like to consider all the data. I am casting a wider net by asking my question on the internet instead of asking a clergyman.
Second I like to be aware of the consequences that my decision might bring me. Not that this will influence my decision, but that it will give me an idea of how I should approach discussing my opinions with others in the future. I. e. if the subject turns out to be a rather touchy subject I will know to approach it with more tact then I usually would when discussing things with others. Also, if perhaps the subject is more touchy with some groups of people then with others then I will know with whom I should be more tactful with and with whom I can speak freely to. In other words I am trying to get an idea about how people feel about the subject so I know how to approach it tactfully with others (if the situation indeed does arise, and with me, it usually does). I have no love for small talk, so often my casual conversations with others quickly develops into intellectual discussions. Being that the purpose for this forum is to discuss issues, I assume that discussing issues is appropriate here.

People with differing opinions can get along with one another. Similarly, People who are dead wrong can get along with people who are, dead right (according to scripture). It's in how you choose to treat the other person. Sometimes people need to find the truth on their own and no amount of beating something into their head is going to change that. As for things that are of more immediate concern, it is better to pick your battles. Consider the long term consequences for your actions and decide accordingly. This is a fact that sometimes we must painfully accept. If the issue is minor, let it go. If it is major, then learn how to tactfully discuss it (you have my permission to use this against me when I loose my tactfullness with any of you. Cassidy, and perhaps One11, now is your oppertunity, don't miss out on this, remember where this is so you can use it again. ha ha ha).
*Oh my, what have I gotten myself into, there is absolutly no way this wont come back on me. oh well.*
Anyway, I have learned (and in some cases still learning) (ok, peahaps more "cases then I choose to admit) to appreciate the viewpoints of others, you can learn a lot from them. (yes, I know that there is no way this also won't come back to me).

Mrs Butterworths will now shut up before I say anything else that I know can come back to me.

 

[Cassidy]

If the issue is minor, let it go. If it is major, then learn how to tactfully discuss it (you have my permission to use this against me when I loose my tactfullness with any of you. Cassidy, and perhaps One11, now is your oppertunity, don't miss out on this, remember where this is so you can use it again. ha ha ha).

Now why would I want to do that??? That's mean

 

[one11]

Well, I think it's better for you to just call and ask. It could be some people in your church are autistic or have autism? Or, it could be something else such as ____________ this or this___________________? If no one answers the phone, they will have a message machine where you can leave your message and someone will get back to you as soon as possible I'm quite sure.

If the scriptures mentioned were not sufficient for you, then you need to ask you Pastor. Be proactive in your life. Being proactive doesn't mean you lack tact.

For instance I went to a concert and the concert hall smelled (reeked) of skunk weed (marijuana) and the whole placed smelled like a skunk or fifty skunks. I can't stand the smell of skunk, it's horrible. So, instead of staying, I asked to speak with a manager and get a refund for my tickets. They were more than happy to oblige the refund and we left the concert.

I also have had issues with parents bringing in screaming children to certain places. I've had to do what was best for me to resolve the issue by either asking the waiter/waitress to move us away from the screaming children, or if it was in a movie, going to the manager to ask for a refund on the movie tickets.

And I find the scriptures I know of sufficient as well as the one's presented here.

And it's not better to shut up. No one was saying that. It's better for you to call and find out and let us know what your Pastor said.

 

[Mrs Butterworth]

Cassidy i was joking. One11 I was also joking about shutting up.

One11 I don't think you have been listening because your understanding of the situation is incomplete. First, I don't attend a church that allows the behavior in question. Second I was asking my question for the purpose of understanding the truth in a more abstract sense, not how it directly applies to any situation I may currently be in. Third I already mentioned the futility of asking anyone in the clergy.

 

[Cassidy]

I know you were

 

[Mrs Butterworth]

Oh good, sometimes I can't tell when someone is serious or not on this forum and, my oh my, Mrs Butterworth's does like to joke.

 

[HeKnowsYou]

I guess it would depend on the type of screaming. I have never witnessed screaming in a church myself, but I have seen such displays during services on tv church programs I have watched. Usually it's not what I would call screaming, but getting all charged up with the Holy Spirit, where they agree with what is being said by the minister, and they just feel so strongly in their spirit, that they are in agreement, or that God himself is present. I don't know how else to explain it.

If it was not as I have described, but more of a disruptive, strange, out of place, screaming. I would think that the person was either extremely distraught or spiritually attacked, even possessed, as mentioned above. I have also seen people who are so stricken with grief that they scream like this, especially in countries where this is a common display for expressing grief. Sometimes when they come to a country where this is not so common, it seems odd to see it. If I were at a church where this was happening, and it seemed clear that there was some kind of stress related reaction, I might try to see if I could help. Sometimes a person just needs to know that somebody cares. If it were a case of possession, then I would hope that a minister, and parishoners who are strong in their faith, would intervene, with prayers, laying on of hands, etc., to free the person from this demonic force.

 

[HeKnowsYou]

But the purpose of being non-denominational is to accept people who may have many different denominational backgrounds

Really? Wow. I thought the purpose of every Christian Church was to worship Christ Jesus. Non-Denominational churches didn't become non-denominational, in order to embrace all denominations. I believe the purpose behind the movement to become non-denominational was to embrace Christ first, rather than any denomination, and/or denominational rules/regs.

I've been a member of several non-denom churches, and have never known any minister, or parishoner to suggest that their reason for being was to embrace all denominations. That seems rather odd, but if your church makes this their calling, then maybe that's what you're looking for, and I don't put you down for that. It's just not what I want out of a church. I want my church to be a place of worship, and a place of congregating with others who also love to worship God, and the Savior Jesus.

Oh, and I mentioned televangelism because these people have something to gain -- your money!

That's stereotyping.
One could say the same of any church that asks for donations. Does yours ask for donations? Not all televangelistsic churches are involved in fishing for dough. Many make their soul function to be fishing for souls. They do need money in order to stay on the air though, and you'd be surprised how many souls have been won to the Lord Jesus via a comfy chair in front of a television which is broadcasting a Christian program.

God uses many forms of media to reach the masses. I think it's wonderful.

 

[Desperaux]

Really? Wow. I thought the purpose of every Christian Church was to worship Christ Jesus. Non-Denominational churches didn't become non-denominational, in order to embrace all denominations. I believe the purpose behind the movement to become non-denominational was to embrace Christ first, rather than any denomination, and/or denominational rules/regs.

I've been a member of several non-denom churches, and have never known any minister, or parishoner to suggest that their reason for being was to embrace all denominations. That seems rather odd, but if your church makes this their calling, then maybe that's what you're looking for, and I don't put you down for that. It's just not what I want out of a church. I want my church to be a place of worship, and a place of congregating with others who also love to worship God, and the Savior Jesus.


That's stereotyping.
One could say the same of any church that asks for donations. Does yours ask for donations? Not all televangelistsic churches are involved in fishing for dough. Many make their soul function to be fishing for souls. They do need money in order to stay on the air though, and you'd be surprised how many souls have been won to the Lord Jesus via a comfy chair in front of a television which is broadcasting a Christian program.

God uses many forms of media to reach the masses. I think it's wonderful.

 

[one11]

Really? Wow. I thought the purpose of every Christian Church was to worship Christ Jesus. Non-Denominational churches didn't become non-denominational, in order to embrace all denominations. I believe the purpose behind the movement to become non-denominational was to embrace Christ first, rather than any denomination, and/or denominational rules/regs.

I've been a member of several non-denom churches, and have never known any minister, or parishoner to suggest that their reason for being was to embrace all denominations. That seems rather odd, but if your church makes this their calling, then maybe that's what you're looking for, and I don't put you down for that. It's just not what I want out of a church. I want my church to be a place of worship, and a place of congregating with others who also love to worship God, and the Savior Jesus.


That's stereotyping.
One could say the same of any church that asks for donations. Does yours ask for donations? Not all televangelistsic churches are involved in fishing for dough. Many make their soul function to be fishing for souls. They do need money in order to stay on the air though, and you'd be surprised how many souls have been won to the Lord Jesus via a comfy chair in front of a television which is broadcasting a Christian program.

God uses many forms of media to reach the masses. I think it's wonderful.

You say, A church building is to worship Jesus Christ. I say, One can worship Jesus Christ every day and in many ways during that day and/or night, seven days a week. A church building is not needed to worship Christ. Even a grassy knoll is sufficient for me to worship The Lord even if just with one person. When the Apostles were in an out of prisons, they had no church in prison and possibly even no one to worship with let alone speak too.

Worshiping as a gathering of believers or fellowship is of course Christ-centered but is to strengthen each other, pray for each other, hear a scripture explained so we understand it better or the Pastor talks about ways of overcoming issues or every day problems in our daily lives.... and non-denominational believe that Christ is our bond in fellowship, not whether one has a scarf on their head or not, or whether one is vocal or charismatic or quiet during our time of fellow shipping in the Lord. So Christ is the bond, not how one chooses to worship this is what I meant about being non-denominational. One can be vocal, one can be quiet.

As far as TV evangelism even though I think most of televangelism is acting doesn't mean that I think no one has been brought to Christ through the vehicle of TV nor can I deny that their are rip off aspects within televangelism. Some caught and explained how they were able to get away with this "scheme" by working people up into this "frenzy". And I'm not only talking about Tammy Faye Baker and Jim Baker. Maybe I'm a bit skeptical after watching a documentary on the Jim and Miss Tammy Faye and how they "learned" from others how to do this. I also suggested Mrs. Butterworth not watch televangelism as perhaps it is far too "vocal" with "screaming" for her that's why I brought it up.

Not to mention, it's the Sabbath day we are to keep holy which is truly scriptural. Which is Friday sundown to Saturday. The other ways of worship days vary in the NT as Paul and Peter and other unknown authors of the Epistles were trying to keep peace amongst a wide variety of ways people wanted to worship. In short, there were many, many Christian sects in early Christianity, including celibate monk brotherhoods who only wanted to do good works such as helping the poor, the widows, bring people food, visit people in prison, and stay in prayer or hymns the rest of the time. Yet here we are over 2000 years later and people are still disputing how to worship. All I can say is... just worship.

This thread reminds me of that scripture where there is chaos all over early Christiandom and the scriptures goes something like (trying to remember off the top of my head) " one of you say I follow Paul, or I follow Peter, or I follow Appolos, and then Paul finally has to say "look, did Paul die for you"? That may not be the exact scripture but I understand it's meaning.

 

[rob64]

"The church" all throughout the NT is never refering to a building.

i made a statement about how the Bible says... "Let all things be done decently and in order"- NKJV.

KEY WORD- "ALL" That means everything, nothing excluded

If some people say they "worship" by getting up and running, what they are doing still falls into the category of "...let ALL things..."

Just a thought...

 

[Desperaux]

I suppose we ought to emulate the Apostles and get ourselves imprisoned in order to be separated from the assembly--it's a good thing.


Sheesh.

 

[Mrs Butterworth]

One11, I don't watch televangelists because I am tired of them telling me that I need to give them money so that they will pray for me to be rich Because (of course) this money that I will get will solve all my problems.

One of the main problems with many charismatic churches is that they have a tendency to follow after spiritual manifestations. It's as if the bible says "Thy (the thy here being who knows what in actuality, but is always assumed to be God) spiritual manifestations are a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path" instead of "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." (By the way I may have reversed that scripture, I didn't have time to look it up. Being that it is a very well known scripture, I think you should know which one I am talking about).

Spiritual manifestations are not the indication that a church is on the right track. Things like new converts, maturity,(I can not stress this enough) and transformation (some people call this bondage breaking, emotional healing, etc. I used the word transformation for lack of a better word) are indications that a church is on the right track. I have been to many very energetic charismatic churches and woa! the schenanagans that went on there. Let's just say they were grace abusers. I am not saying that all charasmatic churches are this way, it's just that they can fall into this if they get off track and start to follow after spiritural manifestations.

 

[Desperaux]

One11, I don't watch televangelists because I am tired of them telling me that I need to give them money so that they will pray for me to be rich Because (of course) this money that I will get will solve all my problems.

One of the main problems with many charismatic churches is that they have a tendency to follow after spiritual manifestations. It's as if the bible says "Thy (the thy here being who knows what in actuality, but is always assumed to be God) spiritual manifestations are a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path" instead of "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." (By the way I may have reversed that scripture, I didn't have time to look it up. Being that it is a very well known scripture, I think you should know which one I am talking about).

Spiritual manifestations are not the indication that a church is on the right track. Things like new converts, maturity,(I can not stress this enough) and transformation (some people call this bondage breaking, emotional healing, etc. I used the word transformation for lack of a better word) are indications that a church is on the right track. I have been to many very energetic charismatic churches and woa! the schenanagans that went on there. Let's just say they were grace abusers. I am not saying that all charasmatic churches are this way, it's just that they can fall into this if they get off track and start to follow after spiritural manifestations.

So glad my church has it all goin' on!

 

[Mrs Butterworth]

I envy you.

If I could create the perfect church it would have a more lively worship service and a very intellectual sermon. Something for the heart and the brain. Unfortunately it seems I have to choose between the two. The problem is that I can't see why both cant exist within the same church.

 

[Desperaux]

I envy you.

If I could create the perfect church it would have a more lively worship service and a very intellectual sermon. Something for the heart and the brain. Unfortunately it seems I have to choose between the two. The problem is that I can't see why both cant exist within the same church.

Those churches are out there. I know that if you ask the Lord to direct you there, He will take you.

He did exactly that for me, and my city has many churches, but not many good ones. No church is perfect, and I think you know that. But our pastor says there are good churches and ours is that. I believe God took us to the BEST ever!

 

[whoopeedew]

The last church I was in, the music pastor encouraged us to run around. He would get going with the song, "I am free to run", and nobody would run at first...(kinda funny). Then he would say, "I know someone in the audience will run for Jesus." So some lady took the bait and all I could say was...wow. It was the funniest thing I had ever seen live in person! The lady kept running the entire duration of the song. Let's just say he liked people to get up and run, and after that Sunday I was running for a new church, and so were a few other people.

 

[one11]

I envy you.

If I could create the perfect church it would have a more lively worship service and a very intellectual sermon. Something for the heart and the brain. Unfortunately it seems I have to choose between the two. The problem is that I can't see why both cant exist within the same church.

No, not necessarily. I went to a Christian church with just Christian in the title and it was very mellow and very much for the brain and very much family oriented in the sermon. So it was quite a different sermon and set up altogether. I loved that church for the family oriented aspect, but it was a little "dry" in some ways. Just know there are different non-denominational churches and it never hurts to visit other churches.

Also, I know many people who have changed churches because they were just called away from a particular church to a complete new beginning. And I'm not saying changing churches every week or month. The people I know of who have changed churches may have spent five years or more before being planted in another church and then lasting there for quite a few years. However, the church visiting process of visiting churches near you could take I'd suppose about 1-2 months, maybe a little longer, not to mention it's fun to visit and say hello to the neighboring churches around you.

If you do find you ARE in a very mellow non-denominational church and it's very rare to have someone scream and start running let alone if at all, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion it's demons, it could be an autistic person for all we know? And a good communication between a church member and it's Pastor and team is always a good idea.

How would you feel about church visiting for a month or two as I don't know if you are being called away from you church or not? God calls us away or moves us because He has a reason.