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Getting Into Christ

Discussion in 'Discipleship: Following Jesus' started by Nova2216, May 4, 2021.

  1. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    I agree. The verse where Jesus told the crowd who was following Him that they needed to forsake all to follow Him. Why is it that Jesus, telling us how to come to Him is not valid?
     
  2. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    The OP asked for the scripture which tells you how to get "into Christ"

    That verse does not tell you how to get "into Christ?

    TRUE or FALSE


    To be "in Christ" is to be "in the church" (the kingdom) according to (Acts 2:38.47).

    The church was not established until (Acts 2).




     
  3. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    Christ dictates how to be in Christ, He was very clear clear about it.

    Why call me Lord if you do not do what i say ( Luke 6:46 )
    This means that in order to be considered a disciple ( Christian ) one must obey Christ.

    Who is my brother, those who do Gods will are my brothers ( Mathew 12:46 )

    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent
    John 6:29

    We are called to believe the message that Jesus said, He decides how to enter the narrow gate and how to walk the narrow way. To become a Christian one reads the 4 gospels, once you become a christian, then and only then do the letters from the apostles apply to you.
     
  4. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Newness of life comes after baptsm.



    Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


    TRUE or FALSE
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  5. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    It is interesting to note that no one was called a Christian according to (Isa.62:2) until after the Jews in (Acts 2) and the Gentiles in (Acts 10) had been baptized. Note - "all flesh" (Acts 2:16,17) (Joel 2:28)

    Just after both the Jews and the Gentiles were baptized into Christ the Lord named His people Christians. The Gentiles were baptized into Christ in (Acts 10), the very next chapter They were called Christians by the word of God (Acts 11:26).

    Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

    We even have a description of how to be baptized in (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40). Be "buried" (Col. 2:11,12)

    The Lord placed salvation AFTER baptism (not before). (Mark 16:16)

    Notice (Acts 2:38,47 ; 3:19 ; 22:16)


    TRUE or FALSE
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  6. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    Nova2216,

    Yes they were called Christians at Antioch, before that and during the time the 4 gospels were writen they were called disciples. You still haven't addressed my questions in my previous post.
     
  7. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    So there were Christians before Christ ever died and was resurrected?

    Is that your position?
     
  8. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    Christain = Disciple = Student


    Mathew 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them

    John 8:31-32 “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


    You are trying to say that we don't become disciples until the Holy Spirit comes upon us, I get it. The Holy Spirit did not come until Acts. The point im making is irrelevant to this because those who became disciples did so by accepting the message of Christ in the 4 gospels. To become a disciple one does not read the letters of the apostoles, one reads the 4 gospels. Once you are a disciple then and only then does the letters apply to you.

     
  9. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    * Is it your position that one can be a Christian BEFORE the death burial and ress. of Christ?

    A Christian is one forgiven of their sins. (Acts 2:38,47 ; 22:16) (Col. 2:11,12) (Mark 16:15,16) (Titus 3:3-5) (Heb. 10:22)

    Can one be free from sin BEFORE Jesus death, burial, ress.?


    (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)

    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness (? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


    Baptism saves (1Peter 3:20,21) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) (Ac. 8:5,12,13,26-40)

    Believe + Baptism = Salvation (Mark 16:16)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  10. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    The thief on the cross was forgiven and promised heaven before the death of Christ and did not get baptized.

    A Christian is one forgiven of their sin.

    Luke 7:48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

    Mathew 9:2 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

    If you keep dumping quotes with out addressing my comments individually then this is just a one way convo my friend.

    I answered you and yes people were forgiven before Jesus died by Jesus Himself. Baptism saves? They were saved before they had baptism, some didnt even do it. You think a ritual of water is more valid than obeying Jesus?

    You have one man who obeys Jesus, word by word but never gets baptized
    You have one man who does water baptism and doesnt obey Jesus

    By your logic the one that did the water baptism is the one going to heaven. Its not the baptism that forgives, its Jesus Himself who forgives, makes alive and decides who is and who isnt.
     
  11. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    There are two covenants in the Bible.

    The OT Covenant - The Cross - The NT Covenant

    As shown above the Cross of Christ separates the two covenants.
    (Jer. 31:31-34) (Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10) (Gal. 4:22-31) (Rom. 10:4)

    Notice what (Jer. 31:31-32) says.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    God said the two covenants (or laws) would be different.

    The cross separates the OT and the NT Laws.

    To try to say the Thief had to be baptized (immersed for the remission of sins) would be like asking Noah or Abraham to be baptized. The Lord did not command them to be baptized for the remission of sins. How could they be baptized into the death of Christ when they lived many years before Christ ever died? Note (Rom. 6:3,4) (Col. 2:11,12).

    The thief was saved under the OT Law. He was never commanded to be baptized. So your argument fails.


    It is true Jesus could forgive sins while He walked the earth.


    * A Christian is one who has believed, repented,confessed Jesus as the Son of God, and been baptized for remission of sins and added to the church according to (Rom. 10:9,10) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16).

    All the saved (Christians) are located within the church according to (Acts 2:38,47) (1Cor. 12:13) (Gal.3:27) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) (Col. 2:11,12).

    salvation which is in Christ Jesus (in the church). (2Tm. 2:10)

    We must remember Christ is the head of the church (Eph. 1:22,23) and the people are the body (the church / the body) according to (Col. 1:18,24).

    In the NT none are saved (Christians) outside of the church according to the scriptures I posted above. (Acts 2:38,47) (2Tim. 2:10).

    Those baptized in (Acts 2:38) were placed into the church (the kingdom) by the Lord as noted in (Acts 2:47) (Col. 1:13) (1Cor. 12:13)

    * Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21) (Mark 16:16). (not baptism alone)

    TRUE or FALSE


    In water baptism is "WHEN" the operation of God happens. Note (Col. 2:11,12)

    It is the Lord who does the work at the point of baptism. (cuts away sins)

    It is the blood of Christ which washes away sins (not the water). (Eph.1:7) (Rev. 1:5) (Acts 22:16).


    * Jesus told Paul in (Acts 9:6) to go find a preacher (Ananias) and he would tell him how to be saved.

    Ac 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Paul learns how to be saved in (Acts 22:16).

    1. Arise
    2. Be Baptized (Mark 16:15,16) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
    3. Wash Away Your Sins


    TRUE or FALSE
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2021
  12. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    Why did Jesus say in Luke 16:16

    “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

    The law was UNTIL John, unless Jesus lied.



    Was the thief around before or after John?



    Jesus said

    Mathew 7:24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.



    Salvation comes from doing and putting into practice what Jesus said.

    John 14:23
    If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

    John 14:21
    He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.

    John 8:31
    So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine.

    1 John 3:24
    The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


    Baptism is nothing if you don't obey Jesus, that's the same mentality the jews had thinking that if they were circumsized that they were by default Gods people. To think that a mere ritual will enable the powers of heaven to a person who is not fully committed to God by following every word of Christ is insulting to God. Its holiness and obedience to faith in every single word Jesus spoke that saves.

    1 Corinthians 7:9 For it makes no difference whether or not a man has been circumcised. The important thing is to keep God’s commandments.

    A ritual does not save, i showed you where Jesus said very clearly by His own words, if you obey me you love me and God will receive you. If you want to continue this then you need to refute the 4 verses i put of Jesus saying obedience to Him is salvation and how they are wrong, other wise im just responding to different points you keep making to justify your idea of salvation, Jesus said it and that has no argument, unless i misunderstood them, which you may try to correct me on at anytime
     
  13. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    We learn that (Luke 16:16) states two things.

    1. The OT Law was to be abolished, done away, vanish, decay as other scriptures teach also. (2Cor. 3) (Col. 2:14-17) (Eph. 2:14-17) (Heb.7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10) (Gal. 4:21-31) (Rom. 10:4).

    2. The NT law was to be established as (Jer. 31:31-34) (Luke 24:44-49) (Acts 1:5,8) (Acts 2:1-4,16,17) (Joel 2:28) teaches. Joel said "this is that" referring to the establishment of the kingdom (the church / the saved) in (Acts 2:38,47).

    Today we are under Law. (James 1:25) (Gal. 6:1,2) (Rom. 3:27) (Mt. 7:21-23).

    Note the word "lawlessness" in (Mt.7:23).

    It seems the Lawless ones will be lost.


    * On the thief, the question should be, Which law was he saved under?

    One must apply the Law to which one lives under.

    I am not under British Law.

    Why?

    I live in America.


    To miss the separation between the two Laws (the cross) is the reason most people do not understand the NT plan of salvation. It is the same reason people go back to the OT Law for the instrument in NT worship. Note (Gal. 5:4) (Eph. 5:19)

    Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


    * It seems you have mistaken me for someone who believes after one is baptized he need not do anything but lay back in the grace of the Lord and be saved. You are mistaken.

    Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Simon after obeying the gospel in (Acts 8:13-24), so sinned as to be lost eternally according to Peter (an inspired man). Simon was told the remedy was to "repent and pray for forgiveness" according to (1Jn 1:9). Note that an alien sinner cannot pray to God and be forgiven of sin according to (Jn 9:31). "God heareth not sinners"

    Simon must have been saved b/c Peter told him to pray for forgiveness according to (1Jn 1:9). This book (1John) was wrote to Christians, not alien sinners.

    Two men so sinned so as to be lost in (2Tim. 2:17-19). They must have been saved to then end up lost.


    * To say we are not under law today is not wise.

    Do men sin today?

    If so we are under law b/c sin is transgression of Gods law (1Jn 3:4).

    1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoesver committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


    I hope this helps you to see my perspective on the matter.


    Ac 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

    This should be our goal.
     
  14. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    If Jesus says that the law and the prophets stops at John, how can anyone who meets Jesus after John be under the law still? you make no sense.

    Its very clear and this is the reason todays Christians are so far from actually following Jesus, they brush His words into the win. The law and prophets were UNTIL John. The second John came around preaching the baptism of repentance, those who were accepting Jesus and repenting and following Him were already His disciples. His disciples while alive have 0 difference to those who became disciples once He died.



    I'm actually not mistaken, I'm positive you don't obey Jesus's teachings.
    In Luke 14:33 He says to become a disciple one must first sell it all before following Him, I'm sure you haven't became a disciple the way He said to become a disciple, instead you go to the letters after Jesus died to find what they said and use that instead, not obeying Jesus words.

    Jesus said call no man Father or use any titles
    Jesus said don't worry about food
    Jesus said don't worry about clothing
    Jesus said lend to anyone who asks
    Jesus said pray in secret
    Jesus said fast in secret
    Jesus even says don't work for money

    The truth is that we have replaced the teachings of Jesus with the teachings of the apostles.


    I told you before, the new testament is divided into 2 sections, one is for how to become a Christian and one is for how to live as a Christian. In order to establish how to become a Christian, you must quote Jesus and Jesus alone, He is the author, He is our salvation, He decides who becomes and who doesn't become a Christian.
     
  15. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    I see the problem now. Thank you for explaining your position.


    * I think you are missing a very important point made in (Mt 10:18-20)
    (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13).

    Mt 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    Jesus said in (Jn 14:26) He was to teach them "all things" (note - 2Peter 1:3)

    Whenever the apostles needed guidance the Holy Spirit led them in what to say. (Mt. 10:18-20) (2Peter 1:20,21)

    Anytime the apostles wrote epistles they were being led by the Holy Spirit.

    So the words the apostles wrote in the epistles were the words of Christ.


    You seem to disagree with the information above.

    TRUE or FALSE


    Thanks
     
  16. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    I don't disagree with the info, the point I'm trying to make is that the letters were written for people that were already Christians. To use them to establish how to become a Christian makes no sense because that's what the 4 gospels are for.

    how to become a Christian = 4 gospels
    how live as a Christian = epistles

    Its like reading the employee handbook with out being hired yet.
     
  17. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    You said - "The truth is that we have replaced the teachings of Jesus with the teachings of the apostles."


    So your statement above shows you do disagree with the scriptures I last posted
     
  18. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    The teachings on becoming a Christian has been replaced with the teachings on how to live as a Christian.

    There is the narrow gate and then the narrow way.

    You cant walk the narrow way before entering the narrow gate.


    This is my entire premise. You and everyone else quotes the narrow way lines with out giving thought to the narrow gate. That gate and how to enter it can only be found by the words of Jesus. He is the way.
     
  19. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    The OT Law has ended (Rom. 10:4) (Luke 16:16) (Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10)

    The NT Law began in (Acts 2) according to (Jer. 31:31-34) (Joel 2:28) (Luke 24:44-49) (Acts 1:5,8) (Acts 2:1-4,38,47)

    Today "ALL FLESH": both Jew and Gentile are under the NT Law of Christ (Faith, but not faith alone) according to (Mt. 7:21-23) (Rom. 3:27) (Gal. 6:1,2) (James 1:25) (2Cor.4:13).


    (Eph. 2:16) helps us to understand how this happens.

    that he might reconcile both (Jew /Gentile) unto God

    in one body (one church / one kingdom) (Eph. 4:1-6) (Mt. 16:18,19)

    by the cross (Mt.26:28) (Eph. 1:7) (Rev. 1:5) (1Cor.1:21)
    (Mark 16:15,16)


    All the saved today are located inside the church (the kingdom / the body) according to (Acts 2:38,47).

    The church was not established until (Acts 2).

    None are saved outside the church (body / kingdom) according to (Acts 2:38,47), for all those who obeyed (Acts 2:38) were place into the church by the Lord. (Acts 2:47).

    Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


    I will say this-

    Matthew --> John - tells us about Christ

    Acts - tells us about the acts of the apostles and the acts of the church (the people)

    Romans --> Jude tells us how to live as Christians, but does at times mention how theses different people got "into Christ".

    For example (Eph. 2:1-8) tells us many things about how the Ephesians are blessed in Christ, but to learn how they got "into Christ" one must go to (Acts 19:1-5). (the Ephesians were baptized twice in water)

    (Acts 2:38,47) Jews were baptized into Christ

    (Acts 10:48) Gentiles were baptized into Christ

    (Acts 8: 5:12,13,26-40) Samaritans were baptized into Christ

    (Acts 16:14,15) Lydia was baptized into Christ

    (Acts 16:30-34) the jailer was baptized into Christ (after midnight / in the dark)

    (Acts 18:8) the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized into Christ

    (Acts 19:1-5) the Ephesians were baptized into Christ

    (Acts 22:16) Paul was baptized into Christ


    Salvation is "in Christ" (2Tim. 2:10)

    The Lord places all those who "obey the gospel" according to (Mark 16:16) and (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) into the church (Acts 2:47)


    How do men get "into Christ"?

    by being "baptized into Christ" (Gal. 3:27) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40) (Col. 2:11,12)


    What did your preacher tell you about how one gets into Christ?

    Say a prayer? (Jn 9:31)

    Believe only? (Luke 13:3) (Rom. 10:9,10)


    1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



    Many have been convinced of something but not converted to Christ.

    You best check your ticket.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  20. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    In nothing you said did you make an argument for what I said.


    I will repeat myself. The narrow gate and how to enter is told by Christ and Christ's words alone.


    When the sermon on the mount occurred and Jesus was teaching everyone, where did He say to those that the way to salvation was trough baptism in His name? Where in the entire new gospel did Jesus tell a single person that they needed to be baptized in His name in order to be saved?


    i do recall time and time again where Jesus said if you obey me you love me or you're Christians if you do what I say.

    Mark 1:8
    I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

    It is very clear that Jesus never once told a single person following Him ( in the 4 gospels ) to be baptized and THEN to follow Him... If you can find one, please share it with me, the only verse you can find is the one with nicodimus.


    The entire premise of the 4 gospels is obedience to Christ, His words dictate how we become Christians. You keep quoting the old testament and the letters and acts but try quoting Jesus about discipleship cause you haven't made a single argument that makes sense since this convo started
     
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