Getting Into Christ

[aiki]

I get not wanting to debate baptism with me - fine, I won't - and I sincerely apologize if I came across overly strong to your "modest" assertions, but you did open the door for a concise rebuttal.

It was a subject the OPer provoked, not me. I would have offered no comment on the subject but for his/her introduction of it into his/her responses to me.

That said, don't you think it a little disingenuous for someone to assert their beliefs on baptism, then turn around and question another's motives when they rebut them (and quite effectively, apparently), calling them a "pedant" and "argumentative?"

Well, you have offered your view. "Effectively rebutted" my own? Not really.

In any case, as I've explained, the OPer elicited my comments on baptism, which I kept short and light because I didn't want to become embroiled in another long (and likely fruitless) back-and-forth on the subject. You jumped into our exchange uninvited, immediately adopting the role of corrector, of instructor, of pedant, setting out a long line of points and questions only someone eager for a long debate would possibly be interested in answering (shades of the "wall o' text" tactic, it seems to me). What's disingenuous about pointing this out?

FWIW, my point was not at all to be argumentative (outside the normal use of the word, involving an honest back-and-forth of ideas) but to point out - for your benefit and everyone else's who read this thread, that the employ of the "Christ Did Not Send Me to Baptize" objection to Christian baptism is a fatally flawed argument, employing a very common logical fallacy and several other transparent errors in logic that's been successfully rebutted since the second century (an objection, btw, that was first raised by Gnostics). That's all. Grace and blessings to you...

Uh huh.

And to you.

 

[Nova2216]

Read the book of Epbhesians and circle the words in Him. You will realize many of the things you have In Christs

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

What a wonderful thought.

 

[Nova2216]

There is only two scriptures which tell men how to get "into Christ."

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Notice - (Acts 22:16)

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven?

OR

Did Paul come to baptism thinking he needed to have his sins forgiven?

 

[Back from Heaven]

"At that time Jesus said: I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."
(Matthew 11:25-27)

 

[Danthemailman]

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise.

 

[DerSchweik]

< snip >
In any case, as I've explained, the OPer elicited my comments on baptism, which I kept short and light because I didn't want to become embroiled in another long (and likely fruitless) back-and-forth on the subject. You jumped into our exchange uninvited, immediately adopting the role of corrector, of instructor, of pedant, setting out a long line of points and questions only someone eager for a long debate would possibly be interested in answering (shades of the "wall o' text" tactic, it seems to me). What's disingenuous about pointing this out?
< snip >

Aki, first - I sincerely apologize if I offended you in any way and humbly ask for your forgiveness if I did.

Since you asked why I thought your response might have been somewhat 'disingenuous,' I'll try to explain:

First, you follow with me "jumping in uninvited.." and assuming some sort of "role." Look, you've over 9,500 posts so you've been here long enough to know this is a public forum and, save for some very specific forum restrictions here and there (e.g. "Christians Only" etc.), anyone is allowed to share their opinions, comments, etc. everywhere without some sort of an invitation; in fact, the unwritten assumption is that if/when we post something, someone may, and depending on the content, most likely WILL respond. The very act of posting here is itself an implicit invitation for response. /point 1

Second, the post to which I responded, which response is being characterized as "a long line of points and questions..." was itself nearly 1000 words long (998 to be exact), not exactly the "short" comment you described. Mine? Ok, admittedly it was longer, about 25% longer at 1256 words - but by comparison hardly a lengthy tome itself. /point 2

Third, the post to which I responded started thusly: "Ah. I see. You're looking for an argument." And, in the nearly 1,000 words that followed - you obliged by giving him one, quoting or citing no less than 21 passages on the topic, ending with "and so on" -- yet went on to chide me for the "argumentative tone" of my response. /point 3

Does that answer your question?

Re the length of my response, it has been my experience that it's generally a good idea to be thorough in one's response here on certain topics (yes, even at the risk of verbosity), to "get it all out there" so-to-speak, rather than incite a far lengthier back-and-forth of often confusing query and clarification. It was certainly NOT my intent, or some tactic, the "wall 'o text" as described. I was merely trying to be thorough.

Now, I hope it's accurate to infer that you expected your 998 word comment be read, completely, which I did, btw. Out of curiosity, I wonder if my comment was met with the same courtesy? I ask because the response I read seemed rather curt and dismissive.

In Him

 

[DerSchweik]

There is only two scriptures which tell men how to get "into Christ."

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Notice - (Acts 22:16)

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven?

OR

Did Paul come to baptism thinking he needed to have his sins forgiven?

Excellent points. My prayer is people will honestly ask/answer those questions - and do a sincere study of the topic for themselves rather than just listen to some pastor or teacher tell them how they ought to think about it (c.f. the Bereans).

Perhaps it should be pointed out for some readers (because there is a LOT of confusion in this regard in the Christian world, whether due to faulty traditions, faulty understanding of God's word, or just plain erroneous teaching) what Christian baptism is NOT.

Christian baptism is NOT HOW one is saved, it is NOT HOW one becomes a Christian.
Let me repeat that:
Christian baptism is NOT HOW one is saved, it is NOT HOW one becomes a Christian.

Christian baptism is WHEN one is saved, it is WHEN one becomes a Christian.

It's a when, a point in time, taking all of about 2 or 3 seconds!

There's a lot that happens though in those 2 or 3 seconds, in that "when" - a lot of work God performs on/in us - but it's all His work; all we do is obey the gospel by submitting to the command/charge to "be baptized." We come [to baptism] having heard, having confessed, having repented, and being willing/ready to obediently submit to Him.

IN Christian baptism is WHEN God gives us of His indwelling Spirit (Acts 2:38)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God forgives and washes away all our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God puts our old selves to death, buries us, and resurrects us with His Son (Rom 6:1ff)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God crucifies us with Christ (Gal 2:20)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God clothes us with His Son, when we put on Christ (Gal 3:26)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God gives us our new identity in Christ (I Cor 1:10-13)

“See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

 

[Nova2216]

Excellent points. My prayer is people will honestly ask/answer those questions - and do a sincere study of the topic for themselves.

Perhaps it should be pointed out for some readers (because there is a LOT of confusion in this regard in the Christian world, whether due to faulty traditions, faulty understanding of God's word, or just plain erroneous teaching) what Christian baptism is NOT.

Christian baptism is NOT HOW one is saved, it is NOT HOW one becomes a Christian.
Let me repeat that:
Christian baptism is NOT HOW one is saved, it is NOT HOW one becomes a Christian.

Christian baptism is WHEN one is saved, it is WHEN one becomes a Christian.

It's a when, a point in time, taking all of about 2 or 3 seconds!

There's a lot that happens though in those 2 or 3 seconds, in that "when" - a lot of work God performs on/in us - but it's all His work; all we do is obey the gospel by submitting to the command/charge to "be baptized." We come [to baptism] having heard, having confessed, having repented, and being willing/ready to obediently submit to Him.

IN Christian baptism is WHEN God gives us of His indwelling Spirit (Acts 2:38)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God forgives and washes away all our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God puts our old selves to death, buries us, and resurrects us with His Son (Rom 6:1ff)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God crucifies us with Christ (Gal 2:20)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God clothes us with His Son, when we put on Christ (Gal 3:26)
IN Christian baptism is WHEN God gives us our new identity in Christ (I Cor 1:10-13)

“See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

(Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16)


Death / Burial / Ress.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Without the burial of the dead there is no being born again. (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)

• John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

* John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

 

[DerSchweik]

Amen.

May many determine to set aside traditions, preconceived notions/beliefs, teachings of their pastors/preachers and friends and study God's word for themselves - ala the Bereans of Acts 17:10 who "studied the Scriptures daily" to see if the things they were being told were true or not.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

With all due respect, your "questions" were quite obviously rhetorical, intended to assert a point. And the dogma behind the rhetoric was equally obvious - the belief that baptism is not part of the salvation process, am I right or did I get that wrong?

I get not wanting to debate baptism with me - fine, I won't - and I sincerely apologize if I came across overly strong to your "modest" assertions, but you did open the door for a concise rebuttal.

That said, don't you think it a little disingenuous for someone to assert their beliefs on baptism, then turn around and question another's motives when they rebut them (and quite effectively, apparently), calling them a "pedant" and "argumentative?"

FWIW, my point was not at all to be argumentative (outside the normal use of the word, involving an honest back-and-forth of ideas) but to point out - for your benefit and everyone else's who read this thread, that the employ of the "Christ Did Not Send Me to Baptize" objection to Christian baptism is a fatally flawed argument, employing a very common logical fallacy and several other transparent errors in logic that's been successfully rebutted since the second century (an objection, btw, that was first raised by Gnostics). That's all. Grace and blessings to you...

Baptism is an acknowledgement of God's salvation, not part of salvation. It's an outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit, the miracle of the new birth. There is no Scripture that I have found that talks about getting into Christ because Paul talks to people who are already Christians so that they are already "in Christ." How did I question your motives?

 

[DerSchweik]

Baptism is an acknowledgement of God's salvation, not part of salvation.

I'm listening... book, chapter, and verse(s) please - cuz I know of no verse or passage that says that, anywhere, explicitly or implicitly.

It's an outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit, the miracle of the new birth.

Such language simply does not exist in the New Testament, certainly not explicitly (look it up in a concordance if you doubt me) but not implicitly either. But if you have references, I'd definitely appreciate seeing them.

There is no Scripture that I have found that talks about getting into Christ because Paul talks to people who are already Christians so that they are already "in Christ."

Not sure I understand what passage(s) to which you're referring; you mean like John in Rev 3:20 where he says "Behold, I stand and the door and knock..." - a passage used by many as means of praying Jesus into one's heart to become a Christian - a passage unfortunately for them since John is speaking to Christians.

How did I question your motives?

You didn't. You quoted my response to Aki.

 

[Nova2216]

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:21)

TRUE or FALSE

 

[Ramon]

Luke 14:33 Jesus said, who so ever it be of you that does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple ( Christian ).

I sold everything, gave it to the poor and became His disciple the way He commanded, that's how I came into Christ.

 

[Nova2216]

Luke 14:33 Jesus said, who so ever it be of you that does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple ( Christian ).

I sold everything, gave it to the poor and became His disciple the way He commanded, that's how I came into Christ.

Are you a Jew?

Lu 14:1 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?


The scriptures you posted does not tell men how to get "into Christ"


The scriptures below do tell men how to get "into Christ"

(Rom. 6:3-4 16-18) (Gal. 3:27) (Col. 2:11,12) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
(Mark 16:15,16)

 

[Ramon]

Are you a Jew?

Lu 14:1 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?


The scriptures you posted does not tell men how to get "into Christ"


The scriptures below do tell men how to get "into Christ"

(Rom. 6:3-4 16-18) (Gal. 3:27) (Col. 2:11,12) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)
(Mark 16:15,16)

The scripture i posted does not tell men how to come to Christ?

All the apostoles admit to doing it
The first 70 disciples ( christians ) admit to doing it
The first church in acts 2 does it
Paul says he did it
Timothy was commended for it
The church in Hebrews 10 did it

Every single person in the new testament did it when coming to Christ, Jesus Himself said that anyone who wants to be a Christian has to do it. Yet you come at me with verses from people who admit to doing it as a defense? You can either read it and see that they did it, research and see why brush it off and continue. Jesus said it, the early church did it and took it literal. So i did too.

 

[Nova2216]

The scripture i posted does not tell men how to come to Christ?

All the apostoles admit to doing it
The first 70 disciples ( christians ) admit to doing it
The first church in acts 2 does it
Paul says he did it
Timothy was commended for it
The church in Hebrews 10 did it

Every single person in the new testament did it when coming to Christ, Jesus Himself said that anyone who wants to be a Christian has to do it. Yet you come at me with verses from people who admit to doing it as a defense? You can either read it and see that they did it, research and see why brush it off and continue. Jesus said it, the early church did it and took it literal. So i did too.

Did you do as the people below?

***



* Those in (Acts 2) obeyed the gospel by following (Acts 2:38,47).

Ac 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


* Those in (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) obeyed the gospel.

Ac 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Ac 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


* The Jailer obeyed the gospel in (Acts 16:30-34).

Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Question - Why was the Jailer (and his family) out in the dark, at midnight, looking for water?

Why not wait until daylight?

Why not wait a week later?

Here is the reason - (Mark 16:16) (Gal. 3:27) (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)

Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

(Rom. 6:16-18)

16. Decide who to serve.
17. Obey a certain doctrine (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) (Acts 2:38,47) (Col. 2:11,12)
18. Being then freed from sin, ye became a servant of righteousness. (Christians)


* Paul obeyed the gospel in (Acts 22:16).

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your sins

Did Paul come to baptism thinking his sins had "already" been forgiven?

OR

Did Paul come to baptism thinking he "needed" to have his sins forgiven?


Question - Why didn't you post these scriptures?

 

[Ramon]

Nova,

This post wasn't intended to start and high jack a thread, im not going to get into here. If you want to debate what I said please make your thread. I'll see be on tomorrow, im already going to bed. Let me know.

 

[Nova2216]

Nova,

This post wasn't intended to start and high jack a thread, im not going to get into here. If you want to debate what I said please make your thread. I'll see be on tomorrow, im already going to bed. Let me know.

No problem.

I think I started this thread with the OP.

 

[Ramon]

No problem.

I think I started this thread with the OP.

If this is your post and you wish, we can move forward.

if we should move forward, i find it more fruitful to discus one persons claims at a time. I made claim to which you disagree with. I mentioned that Jesus did say in Luke that in order to be His disciple that we must forsake all that we have.

You disagree with this but first things first. Did Jesus say this? if so, why do you consider it not literal if everyone in the new testament took this statement to be literal.

If you can answer that question and then make an argument then i will reply. Lets try to keep it one verse each so that we can make this more productive.

 

[Nova2216]

If this is your post and you wish, we can move forward.

if we should move forward, i find it more fruitful to discus one persons claims at a time. I made claim to which you disagree with. I mentioned that Jesus did say in Luke that in order to be His disciple that we must forsake all that we have.

You disagree with this but first things first. Did Jesus say this? if so, why do you consider it not literal if everyone in the new testament took this statement to be literal.

If you can answer that question and then make an argument then i will reply. Lets try to keep it one verse each so that we can make this more productive.

How one gets into Christ is a very important issue. I think it's best we stay with this topic.