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Getting Into Christ

Discussion in 'Discipleship: Following Jesus' started by Nova2216, May 4, 2021.

  1. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    May I ask if you are a member of a particular church?

    IF so, which one?
     
  2. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    I belong to no denomination at all.

    I sold everything that I owned like Jesus demands of all who want to be His disciple ( Luke 14:33 )
    I work for God and He provides my needs just like Jesus said He would in the sermon on the mount.

    I take no thought for food, clothing or what comes tomorrow just like Jesus demanded of His disciples in Mathew

    Mark 10:29
    Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

    29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
     
  3. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    What are your thoughts on (Mark 16:15,16)?

    Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:16)

    This saving gospel is to go to everyone. (every creature)
     
  4. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    My thoughts on believe are a little different than others because I take the commands of Jesus very literal.

    Believe is not about believing that He existed because the book of James states that even the demons believe this, meaning its not the type of belief that is required. To believe is to have faith in Jesus and everything that He said but the part of believing comes down to actually doing what He said as proof of that belief. For example and not pointing at any denomination at all....

    Jesus said in Mathew 6 to pray in secret only, that only a hypocrite prays in front of others. Nobody listens to this.

    Jesus said call no man father or teacher etc.. nobody listens to this.

    Jesus said to lend to anyone who asks, turn the other cheek, bless who curses you, love your enemies... nobody takes this literal.

    Jesus said take no thought for food or clothing, i cant think of anyone i know who doesnt worry about what they will eat even though Jesus literally said that God will worry about these things and do them for us.

    When a person is being taken care of by God and God is providing food and shelter, clothing and needs, then and only then can a person really focus on the verse that you mentioned about preaching the gospel.

    To believe is to do with no excuse.

    Baptism, I have a lot to say about that too but i don't want to make you read too much lol
     
  5. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    The jailer was said to believe only after he had been baptized (Acts 16:30-34)


    An inspired man said Agrippa believed yet he was not yet a Christian.

    Ac 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
    28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christ.

    Belief + Baptism = Salvation
    (Mark 16:16)

    Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21)



    1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God...


    Thanks
     
  6. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    Why don't you try braking down what i said sentence by sentence and correcting it? You haven't spoke a single sentence about anything i said in the comment prior. This really feels like a one way convo.
     
  7. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    I post Bible scriptures and you keep saying notice what "I said".

    I am trying to stay with what God said.

    No disrespect, but I do not care what men think. (1Cor. 4:6)

    God said - Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    What does that mean?


    God said - 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    What does that mean?


    God said - Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life....

    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    What does that mean?



    God said - Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    What does that mean?


    God said - 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    What does that mean?



    At least some of what you say seems to contradict Gods word.


    Thanks
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  8. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    I am not a member of any denomination ether.

    I am a member of the church you can read about in the NT. (Rom. 16:16) (Eph. 4:12)

    Ro 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:



    You mean Jesus died to establish His church and you want no part of it?



     
  9. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    You bring this topic to water, its wrong.
    Mathew 3:11 He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. It is the total immersion of Gods Holy Spirit that this speaks of.

    Baptize you into 1 body, baptized in the Spirit, not water. You quote a scripture that contradicts what you claim.
     
  10. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    The church in the new testament were homes, communities of believers who had all things in common and sold all that they owned obeying Jesus in Luke 14:33.

    The church in the new testament were homes full of people that followed Christ and obeyed Him, they lived together and helped one another. Everyone worked together to edify and be there daily just like brothers and sisters in a home with dad and mom.

    I live in such a place and anyone who wants to follow Christ is welcomed here, free of charge. God takes care of us and has done so for many years.
     
  11. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    1. Holy Spirit baptism

    2. Water immersion for the remission of sins


    We read in (Eph. 4:1-6) there is now "one baptism".

    Pick one.



    Is Holy Spirit baptism --> for the remission of sins?


    Do you practice more than one baptism?



    * Questions

    Are "all men" commanded to be Holy Spirit baptized?

    What verses says that?


    How would I "obey" such a command to be Holy Spirit baptized?

    What verse says that?


    How could I know "WHEN" I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit?

    What verse says that?



    Are people "only" saved after being baptized in the Holy Spirit (and not before)?



    * We only have examples of "groups" of people being baptized by the Holy Spirit.

    Jews / Gentiles (Acts 2 / 10)


    That is the "all flesh" (Acts 2:16,17) is speaking about. (Joel 2:28)

    I can however read in (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) where both "groups" and "individuals" were baptized in water.



    * (1Cor.12:13)

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit

    "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"


    Notice the scripture below.

    Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

    "offered by the law"

    Would anyone argue "the law" got up and offered the sacrifice?

    No, People heard the word of God, submitted to instructions of the Lord and in their obedience pleased the Lord.



    When it comes to (1Cor. 12:13), when people are baptized according to the instructions of God the Lord places them in the church (kingdom). That's what happened in (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34)

    It is the Spirit which "guides" all men when they read and understand the instructions of the Lord. (Eph. 3:3,4)

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)




    *Another point is that Holy Spirit baptism is a "miracle".

    Miracles are done to "confirm" the word of God. (Heb.2:3,4) (Mark 16:20)

    The word of God was confirmed "in the 1st century by the apostles". (2Cor. 12:12) (1Cor.2:4)

    The word of God only needs to be confirmed "once".


    Do you contend that miracles happen today?



    Thanks
     
  12. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    I'm curious, do you think God needs a person to be dipped in a puddle of water in order for them to be forgiven?

    I did show you a verse where John states that Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. Paul even tells us that he didn't even come to baptize people in water. People were making claims of who it was that dipped them in a puddle and held their heads high missing the entire point of baptism.



    Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

    Did the apostles get baptized 2 times? or one from John and then the Holy Spirit baptism in the upper room?

    Luke 11:13
    “If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK HIM!

    John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

    How would you obey such a command? by obeying everything that Jesus taught.


    An evil spirit makes a person evil
    The Holy Spirit makes a person just that, Holy.

    How would you know, well from my experience, its assurance.
    The verses of what happens to a person who has the Holy Spirit are too many to list in the epistles.


    Seems like a setup question lol.


    If i were to tell you all the miracles I've witnessed, prayed for and seen come to happen you wouldn't believe me. In short, yes I do.


    You know, i realized we went a million miles away from my original topic. How to become a disciple. If you ever want to get to that again we can but ill continue this chat, you're not rude and it hasn't gotten crazy the entire time and for that I thank you.
     
  13. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    * The baptism of John was "in water' and was "for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4)

    So why is it so hard to accept NT baptism is in water and for the remission of sins?
    (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16) (Mark 16:15,16) (1Peter 3:20,21)



    * When it comes to (1Cor. 1:17), please read vs 14,15,16.

    1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    So Paul did baptize people according to his own words.

    Did he disobey God?

    Maybe (1Cor. 1:17) does not mean what you think it means.


    Even Paul's conversion included baptism in (Acts 22:16).

    1. Arise
    2. Be Baptized
    3. Wash Away Your Sins



    * So you think the "you" in (Mt. 3:11) is Ramon?

    Please notice if you will the following information.

    This is a discussion between Jesus and the apostles. (Luke 24:44-49)

    The apostles (not you) were to go to Jerusalem, on the first Pentecost after the death of Jesus and wait for the POWER to come upon them (not you). (Luke 24:44-49) (Acts 1:5,8) (Acts 2:1-4)

    Question for Ramon - Did "you" go to Jerusalem, on the first Pentecost, after the death of Jesus upon the cross and receive the POWER of God?

    People today want the "POWER" noted in (Luke 24:44-49) (Acts 1:5,8 ; 2:1-4) but they disregard the context of these text.

    There are some stipulations in these scriptures which must be met before one receives the POWER of God.


    Context is very important.



    * When it comes to miracles the apostles were the "only" people who could pass the gifts on to others. (no apostles today)

    (Acts 8:18,19)

    Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

    While others could do miracles they could not pass the gifts to others.

    So what happens when the apostles die? (miracles ceased)
    (Zech. 13:1,2) (Eph. 4:11-13) (1Cor. 13:-10)

    The gifts were only needed until the revelation of God was "completed".
    (Mark 16:20) (Heb. 2:3,4)

    We see that completion of Gods revelation in (2Peter1:3).

    2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things that pertain unto life and godliness"
     
  14. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    Ac 8:1 ¶ And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

    Was a building persecuted above? No, people were being persecuted. Much of the confusion today is b/c of the false teaching on the church.(Acts 2:38,47) note also (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16)


    Ro 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house.

    Above we see the church (saved people) was inside a house. This is clear. A building is not a church.

    Christ is the head of the church (Eph. 1:22,23)

    The people are the body (the church).

    Christ is the head (decision maker) of the body (those saved).


    Thanks
     
  15. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    I think you misunderstood my point, I also believe that a church is people. When i was referring to the homes, I wasn't referring to the home being the church. At this point, i don't even remember what the point i was trying to make because its been a few.

    Regardless, the entire topic which I initially began to speak of and got off rails was becoming a disciple according to Jesus. Those words where He would say you cant be my disciple if..... Those points that Jesus made about discipleship are ignored by all.

    Luke 14:33 is a very clear example, He said it yet nobody touches the topic or run to other topics that have salvation in the words.
     
  16. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    Wasn't Jesus making a point about having the right priorities?

    It seems you stopped reading in the middle of the bible.

    Why not do like Paul Harvey once said and "hear the rest of the story"?

    I not only want to obey the Lord (Heb. 5:9), I also want to go to heaven (Mark 16:15,16).
     
  17. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    In (Acts 9) Paul became a disciple but in (Acts 22:16) he became a servant of righteousness (a Christian).

    (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18)

    Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


    servants of righteousness = Christians

    16. decide who to serve
    17.
    obey a certain doctrine (Rom. 6:3-6,16-18) (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40)
    18. being
    then freed from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.
    (Christians)



    Are there two ways of being forgiven of sins today? (or one way)
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
  18. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    In Mark 10 the apostoles admit they took the command literal, along with the first 70 disciples.

    In acts 2 everyone who became a Christian took it literal.

    Paul says he took it literal
    In hebrews they took it literal
    Timothy took it literal.

    I cant see how anyone would read of every person in the new testament taking this command literal but then saying it meant to prioritize.

    Mark 10: 28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

    Acts 2:45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

    Hebrews 10:34 joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you KNEW that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

    Philippians 3:8 For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may GAIN Christ.

    Mathew 13:44
    The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and SOLD all he had and bought that field.

    45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and SOLD everything he had and bought it.

    It's too many to say it's not literal or that it was a secret meaning and it wasn't literal. You may see this and think it means something but I see this and see a literal command, it's why I did it.

    Jesus said. Who so ever it be of you that does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple. Want to become a disciple the way Jesus said it? Obey Him.
     
  19. Nova2216

    Nova2216 If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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    Is this to be taken literal?

    Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple...

    Lu 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
     
  20. Ramon

    Ramon Member

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    If we see a verse and we stop to wonder if its literal or not, we have to ask ourselves if there are any more passages to support the idea of literal or parabolic.

    I showed you almost 10 verses that support Luke 14:33 to be a literal passage, in fact, there are no passages to suggest it is parabolic or hidden meaning.

    In the case of Luke 14:26, you have to do the same, are there passages that suggest it to be literal or not. There are passages that support this meaning to love Jesus more.

    In any case, using one verse with support as a parable to reject a different verse that has literal support makes no sense. I showed you where everyone in the new testament took the command literal, you would have to explain to me how come they took it literal but we dont have to.
     
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