Geological Sciences v. YEC/Flood Geology

Frumious Bandersnatch

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goodseedhomeschool said:
Well then I suppose the first question I should ask is how many here are Christians? The second would be how many here follow Charles Lyell or scripture??

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the problems that geology presents for YECS. If you want to discuss people's religious beliefs I would suggest opening an other thread. If you want to learn about geologists who are Christians you could start with the Affiliation of Christian Geologists.

http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
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Pete Harcoff

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goodseedhomeschool said:
Well then I suppose the first question I should ask is how many here are Christians? The second would be how many here follow Charles Lyell or scripture??

Nobody "follows" Charles Lyell. Your question implys that one cannot agree with Lyell's work in geology and still be a Christian. Not only is this not true, it is a theologically dangerous stance to take.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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goodseedhomeschool said:
The only place in the entire world that the complete "geologic column" can be found is in the textbooks.

Please, either address the questions in the opening post or start a new thread.

Besides, that claim is a falsehood. The entire geologic column is found in a number of places around the world: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/geo.htm
 
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Arikay

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False.

"This article is a detailed examination of the young earth creationist claim that the geologic column does not exist. It is shown that the entire geologic column exists in North Dakota."

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

goodseedhomeschool said:
The only place in the entire world that the complete "geologic column" can be found is in the textbooks.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Arikay said:
I see pete got to it first. :)

This is why asking questions is important, so you can keep from making false claims. :)

Judging by his posts, I'd say he came straight from Hovind's site. He's better off not posting here, since the opinion of Christians and non-Christians alike in these forums is not favorable towards Hovind and his bizarre brand of theology and "science".
 
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Alessandro

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Reference www.icr.org

Scientific Reasons:

The earth's surface and sedimentary crust also bear strong witness to the historicity of a worldwide Flood, and the early geologists (Steno, Woodward, etc.) taught this. Most modern geologists have argued, on the other hand, that the earth's crust was formed slowly over billions of years. Yes, but consider the following significant facts.

1. All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or times in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.

2. Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks (sandstones, shales, limestones, etc.). These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water from various sources.

3. The assigned "ages" of the sedimentary beds (which comprise the bulk of the "geologic column") have been deduced from their assemblages of fossils. Fossils, however, normally require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Thus every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly—even catastrophically—and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.

4. Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column (that is, there is no worldwide "unconformity," or time gap, between successive "ages"), and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

5. It is also significant that the types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.

6. The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks do not constitute a legitimate exception to this rule, for there is a flagrant circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed geologic age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being." Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life (remember that fossils are dead things, catastrophically buried for preservation) in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.

7. The fact that there are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record) is firm evidence that those tribes all originated from the one family preserved through the cataclysm.

One can understand why atheistic and pantheistic evolutionists have to interpret Earth history in terms of great ages and evolution, rather than Creation and the Flood. They really have no other choice, once they have decided to reject the God of Creation and His record in the Bible. However, it is very difficult to understand why men and women who do believe in God and His word do this. The Bible is explicitly clear on the global Deluge, and sound scientific evidence supports it.
 
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Alessandro

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Biblical Reasons

A few of the many Biblical reasons for believing in the global Flood are briefly summarized below. For those who believe in the Bible as the inerrant word of God, these should be sufficient.


1. Jesus Christ believed the Old Testament record
of the worldwide Flood. Speaking of the antediluvian population, He said: "The flood came, and took them all away" (Matthew 24:39). Evolutionary anthropologists are all convinced that people had spread over the entire Earth by the time assigned to Noah in Biblical chronology, so an anthropologically universal Flood would clearly have required a geographically worldwide Flood.

2. The apostle Peter believed in a worldwide hydraulic cataclysm. "Whereby the world [Greek, kosmos] that then was, being overflowed [Greek, katakluzo] with water, perished" (II Peter 3:6). The "world" was defined in the previous verse as "the heavens . . . and the earth." Peter also said that "God . . . spared not the old world, but saved Noah . . . bringing in the flood [Greek, kataklusmos] upon the world of the ungodly" (II Peter 2:5). Note also that these words katakluzo and kataklusmos (from which we derive our English word "cataclysm") are applied exclusively in the New Testament to the great Flood of Noah's day.

3. The Old Testament record of the Flood, which both Christ and Peter accepted as real history, clearly teaches a global Flood. Therefore, it seems to us that Christians, professing to believe in Christ and follow Him, can do no less. For example, the record emphasizes that "all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven . . . and the mountains were covered" (Genesis 7:19,20) with the waters of the Flood. This must have included Mount Ararat on which Noah's Ark landed, and which is now 17,000 feet high. This was no local flood!

4. Since "all flesh died that moved upon the earth . . . all that was in the dry land" (Genesis 7:21,22), Noah and his sons had to build a huge Ark to preserve animal life for the post-diluvian world—an Ark that can easily be shown to have had more than ample capacity to carry at least two of every known species of land animal (marine animals were not involved, of course). Such an ark was absurdly unnecessary for anything but a global Flood.

5.God promised that never "shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11), and He has kept His word for over four thousand years, if the Flood indeed was global. Those Christians who say it was a local flood, however, are in effect accusing God of lying, for there are many devastating local floods every year.
 
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Arikay

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Oh sorry, not DrDino, ICR.

here is the link to what you posted,
http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-116a.htm

You do realize that not citing your source is called Plagerizing. Its bad form and also Illegal.

Are you going to college? If you are, I would seriously suggest you watch yourself, as doing this in a paper can get you kicked out of college.

Im sure plagerizing can also be considered a Sin, as its being dishonest.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Alessandro said:
1. All the mountains of the world have been under water at some time or times in the past, as indicated by sedimentary rocks and marine fossils near their summits. Even most volcanic mountains with their pillow lavas seem largely to have been formed when under water.

False. Not all mountains have marine sedimentary rocks. Those that do were once flat-lying and folded due to plate tectonic processes.

2. Most of the earth's crust consists of sedimentary rocks (sandstones, shales, limestones, etc.). These were originally formed in almost all cases under water, usually by deposition after transportation by water from various sources.

False. Most of the earth's crust consists of IGNEOUS rocks (basalts and granites, chiefly) that are under these sedimentary rocks. Furthermore, most marine deposits are precipitated not precipitated due to transportation.

3. The assigned "ages" of the sedimentary beds (which comprise the bulk of the "geologic column") have been deduced from their assemblages of fossils. Fossils, however, normally require very rapid burial and compaction to be preserved at all. Thus every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly—even catastrophically—and more and more present-day geologists are returning to this point of view.

False. Organisms can be fossilized due to a wide variety of processes both fast and slow. What you ignore here is that there are other indicators showing slow deposition. It is WRONG to say that "every sedimentary formation appears to have been formed rapidly" because of those indicators within the strata.

4. Since there is known to be a global continuity of sedimentary formations in the geologic column (that is, there is no worldwide "unconformity," or time gap, between successive "ages"), and since each unit was formed rapidly, the entire geologic column seems to be the product of continuous rapid deposition of sediments, comprising in effect the geological record of a time when "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

False conclusions from false premises above. It still ignores that continuous deposition IS IN NO WAY SUBSTANTIATED by the geologic record. I have explained this in detail in another thread. You ignored it.

5. It is also significant that the types of rocks, the vast extent of specific sedimentary rock formations, the minerals and metals, coal and oil found in rocks, the various types of structures (i.e., faults, folds, thrusts, etc.), sedimentary rocks grossly deformed while still soft from recent deposition, and numerous other features seem to occur indiscriminately throughout the various "ages" supposedly represented in the column. To all outward appearances, therefore, they were all formed in essentially the same brief time period.

False. Rock folding results from gradual, noncoaxial strain accumulation. If the sediments were soft, it would not be mechanically possible for them to exist as they do now after being under those pressures.

6. The fossil sequences in the sedimentary rocks do not constitute a legitimate exception to this rule, for there is a flagrant circular reasoning process involved in using them to identify their supposed geologic age. That is, the fossils have been dated by the rocks where they are found, which in turn had been dated by their imbedded fossils with the sequences based on their relative assumed stages of evolution, which had ultimately been based on the ancient philosophy of the "great chain of being." Instead of representing the evolution of life over many ages, the fossils really speak of the destruction of life (remember that fossils are dead things, catastrophically buried for preservation) in one age, with their actual local "sequences" having been determined by the ecological communities in which they were living at the time of burial.

False. This is just a gross misunderstanding of how dating works. This type of circularity is not used. You are being lied to by creationists.

7. The fact that there are traditions of the great Flood found in hundreds of tribes in all parts of the world (all similar in one way or another to that in the Genesis record) is firm evidence that those tribes all originated from the one family preserved through the cataclysm.

False. Not all flood myths are even close to being the same. Not all flood myths were written at the same time. Myths are not evidence of fact. Furthermore, it's not surprising that cultures had flood myths considering civilizations often rose in river valleys (prone to flooding) due to the favorable conditions for agriculture which set the stage for sedentary groups.

One can understand why atheistic and pantheistic evolutionists have to interpret Earth history in terms of great ages and evolution, rather than Creation and the Flood. They really have no other choice, once they have decided to reject the God of Creation and His record in the Bible. However, it is very difficult to understand why men and women who do believe in God and His word do this. The Bible is explicitly clear on the global Deluge, and sound scientific evidence supports it.

1. Saying that no global flooding event occurred is because of the EVIDENCE and is independent of any ridiculous theological convictions.

2. The article uses a false dichotomy in this paragraph.


Posting articles that are not your own doesn't help your case. Posting articles from organizations without credibility doesn't help your case.

Your post was full of blatant falsehoods any introductory geology student could debunk. Unfortunately, many creationists omit evidence or flat out lie to further their cause. Professional geologists, on the other hand, have no such bias that causes them to be liars like those whose work you just posted.

Please stop wasting space copying and pasting articles full of nonsense because you cannot do the research for yourself. You are just clogging up my thread with your nonsense.
 
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Alessandro said:
Alot more is to come :)

Don't bother wasting our time and space--especially considering you have no desire to learn but instead to propagate nonsense.

Either answer the questions in the opening posts, or please start a different thread or go elsewhere.
 
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