gentleman-ness/chivalry

[corvus_corax]

You're doing it wrong.

Quite a bit off topic from the OP, but I was thinking the same thing.
"Fuzzy" and "pink"......pshaw

 

[Mling]

The "marriage is the sole purpose of dating" approach disturbs me a bit. My first relationship was with somebody I would never marry....but it was exactly what I needed at.the time: an introduction to what being in a relationship is like. Somebody to let me know that important discussions and even arguments can happen in a healthy, edifying way. I could not have handled being an intense relationship without having been in a casual on.

Also, people don't always know or understand what they need, to grow into the type of person who *can* handle a marriage in a healthy way.

Teach a kid to be empathetic and logical, to introspection and evaluate their own mindset and experiences to figure out what is going right and what is going wrong, and to communicate in healthy, effective ways, and then let them date at their own speed. If that's in place, they'll be able to learn from mistakes, and that's the best way to learn.

 

[rjc34]

Yes, evaluating someone for marriage is the sole purpose for Christian dating.

In fact, Christian teens and other teens have the same purpose for dating: to get laid. Christian teens just have a more mature and long-thinking perspective on 1.) when that should happen (in marriage), and 2.) the other things that go along with it.

Ah yes, all those Christian teens are so mature and forward thinking, while those atheist heathens are obviously all harlots and just want to have sex all the time.

 

[rjc34]

Respect for and submission to her mate, modest behavior, clothing herself in good deeds.

"Chivalry," BTW, is not a Biblical word; but a man who practices his Biblical role of leader and self-sacrificing caretaker in a relationship will generally meet what we would call "chivalrous" behavior.

That attitude--as well as the attitude that love and kindness are "earned"--is the root of most marital dissolutions. High on the list of things a young woman should look for in a man is someone she can respect unconditionally; and if she cannot do so, she should not marry him.

Is it just me, or does it feel like Paul's misogyny is creeping through here a bit. Seriously, she must 'respect him unconditionally' and 'submit to him'? I'm sorry, I thought we were living in the 21st century, where women aren't property anymore.

 

[mr2coop]

Because teaching her that boys should be waiting on her hand and foot, woo-ing her away, giving her all their attention, and basically to expect to be treated like a princess -- is not going to end well. Let the poor girl figure out boys herself, because telling her these ideal fantasies is just going to, well, disappoint her when she gets a dose of the real world.

I am deffinately the kind of father that will not let her find out guys on her own. That is 'a baby having a baby' waiting to happen.

 

[mr2coop]

I am so surprised that I haven't yet read but one post that was somewhat helpfull. You all have some strange ideas of what relationships/marriages are or should be
First of all, I understand that the term, 'chivalry' may not be the perfect definition of what I want her to look for, but when you read it, you understood exactly what I meant. Second, I know that I am the best example; which is a pretty daunting concept, especially to someone who has a pretty good concept of what the bibleperson has to saythat sbout the subject, but I try to do my best. 3rd, I am not trying to dictate the person I expect, but the person that God expects. Hints the description 'biblically based'. I thank you all though. This is my first attempt at a forum discussion and I have been thoroughly underwhelmed.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Does anyone know of a biblically based book on male behavior? Specifically for those of dating age. I actually want it for my 9-year-old daughter. No, she is not dating, but I want her to be ready and know how she should be treated when we get to that stage.

I tell my 9yo daughter that she should be treated as I treat her and her mom.

 

[Mling]

I am so surprised that I haven't yet read but one post that was somewhat helpfull. You all have some strange ideas of what relationships/marriages are or should be
First of all, I understand that the term, 'chivalry' may not be the perfect definition of what I want her to look for, but when you read it, you understood exactly what I meant. Second, I know that I am the best example; which is a pretty daunting concept, especially to someone who has a pretty good concept of what the bibleperson has to saythat sbout the subject, but I try to do my best. 3rd, I am not trying to dictate the person I expect, but the person that God expects. Hints the description 'biblically based'. I thank you all though. This is my first attempt at a forum discussion and I have been thoroughly underwhelmed.

I guess what I'm not clear on is why you think a boyfriend should treat her in such a radically different way than anybody else that such treatment can't be shown by example and must bet read about in a book

A child will learn best how she deserves to be treated by how her parents treat her. when she has a problem, do you listen to her, and sincerely attempt to understand it? When she is happy, do you share in her joy? Do you make time for her, and treat it as *important* time? Do you let her make mistakes and learn from them and give her the freedom to develop her own interests and pursue her own goals and otherwise let her experience the world through *her* own life?
well then, she will probably expect other people to treat her with the respect she deserves as a human being. and if you have taught her how to treat other people similarly, she will be able to reciprocate and treat her partner with respect also.

when she has a problem, do you immediately take it away from her? Do you do her school assignments for her? If she is upset, do you simply tell her wat to do, or do it for her? Do you ever hit her--in *any* way? do you ever laugh when she cries? When she has trouble accomplishing a goal, do you treat her as if she has failed (as opposes to running into obstacles)? Well.then, she probably views herself as incompetent, unable to function as her own person, not worthy of respect and dependant on others, and she will probably be most comfortable with people who treat her that way.

people gravitate toward familiar situations. if you want her to gravitate toward people who will respect her, you need to make respect familiar and comfortable for her.

 

[Mling]

Also: DO NOT let her watch tv that involves romance. The "rules" that tv relationships follow are 7messed up!*

 

[rjc34]

I am deffinately the kind of father that will not let her find out guys on her own. That is 'a baby having a baby' waiting to happen.

Only when you believe that ignorance is the best policy when it comes to sex-ed. Abstinence only education simply increases the rate of STD transmission and teen pregnancy. They're going to do it whether you like it or not, so your choice really lies in whether you want them to know how to do it safely or not.

 

[Gishin]

Also: DO NOT let her watch tv that involves romance. The "rules" that tv relationships follow are 7messed up!*

Or make sure she knows that tv romance isn't grounded in reality.

 

[rjc34]

I guess what I'm not clear on is why you think a boyfriend should treat her in such a radically different way than anybody else that such treatment can't be shown by example and must bet read about in a book

A child will learn best how she deserves to be treated by how her parents treat her. when she has a problem, do you listen to her, and sincerely attempt to understand it? When she is happy, do you share in her joy? Do you make time for her, and treat it as *important* time? Do you let her make mistakes and learn from them and give her the freedom to develop her own interests and pursue her own goals and otherwise let her experience the world through *her* own life?
well then, she will probably expect other people to treat her with the respect she deserves as a human being. and if you have taught her how to treat other people similarly, she will be able to reciprocate and treat her partner with respect also.

when she has a problem, do you immediately take it away from her? Do you do her school assignments for her? If she is upset, do you simply tell her wat to do, or do it for her? Do you ever hit her--in *any* way? do you ever laugh when she cries? When she has trouble accomplishing a goal, do you treat her as if she has failed (as opposes to running into obstacles)? Well.then, she probably views herself as incompetent, unable to function as her own person, not worthy of respect and dependant on others, and she will probably be most comfortable with people who treat her that way.

people gravitate toward familiar situations. if you want her to gravitate toward people who will respect her, you need to make respect familiar and comfortable for her.

This is a fantastic summary!

 

[mr2coop]

People, I am not, and would not try to use a book to replace me. But, as all parents are aware; good, wise, practical help is always welcome. I'm just looking for an additional resource. I never could have imagined that it would be such a hard concept

 

[SithDoughnut]

People, I am not, and would not try to use a book to replace me. But, as all parents are aware; good, wise, practical help is always welcome. I'm just looking for an additional resource. I never could have imagined that it would be such a hard concept

It's complicated because the type of book you are looking for is not going to help your daughter, and could quite possibly hinder her by giving her false expectations. If you just wanted a book about behaviour, then that might be possible (not that I know of any that would be suitable for her age), but seeing as you've specified chivalry, that's going to give your daughter the impression that people should act in ways that they do not.

 

[Mling]

People, I am not, and would not try to use a book to replace me. But, as all parents are aware; good, wise, practical help is always welcome. I'm just looking for an additional resource. I never could have imagined that it would be such a hard concept

If somebody came up to you and said, "Hey, I'm trying to build a house--know any good blenders that are good for that?" Would you respond with, "Oh yeah! I know some good house-building blenders!"? Or would you respond with "Um...wait....where do blenders fit in the process of house-building?"

If you try to use a blender to build a house, you're doing something very wrong.

Your stated goal is to teach your daughter what she should expect out of a healthy relationship. If you use a book to do that, you're doing it very wrong. Nobody learns self-respect out of a book. Nobody learns interpersonal relationship skills, or how to establish and respect boundaries, or conflict resolution out of a book (I hesitated before writing that last one, because there are some great explanations on conflict resolution written up out there....but it's still all just theory, and it's really learned much much better by seeing how it works in everyday life.)

Nobody is responding with book recommendations because a book is the wrong tool for the job.

 

[Mling]

Or make sure she knows that tv romance isn't grounded in reality.

Eh---I thought that when I was 12, "I know all this stuff is fake. Real life isn't like TV, yadda..." but as much as I mouthed the words, 90's sitcoms were my first introduction into how dating works and what the rules are for romantic couples. You can know that something "isn't real," but still---it's people, and they wear clothes, and they talk and stuff, so at least some parts of it are real, right?

Parsing out which aspects of it are real* and which aren't** requires having a lot of real life models--enough to be able to compare the relationships they see on TV and the ones they see in real life, and be able to see the average trends of both and determine which things only come up on TV and which happen more in real life. The average child/young teen isn't going to have nearly enough models of healthy dating to match the amount of relationships they see on TV.

You can say, "Oh, I know it isn't real," but if your only model for how a part of life works comes from a single source, well... you're going to make assumptions based on that model.


*Teens do date, and so do older people. Also, relationships often involve conflict--jealousy really is often a cause of these conflicts. Often, teenagers really do think they're going to be together forever. Sometimes it really does work out that way. Often, it doesn't.

** Talking in cute or dramatic little quips is just really annoying in real life (I'm horrified by the degree to which teenagers I know speak in product slogans). Kissing doesn't solve a conflict. One party in a relationship having a crush on somebody outside the relationship does not need to be a source of jealousy--in fact, it can be something the people in the relationship giggle about, share and enjoy. It is not ok for a woman to hit a man, nonconsensually. Communication options do not stop at "glowing praise," "small talk" "disdain," and "insults:" it is possible to express negative feelings in positive, edify ways.

 

[mr2coop]

Do anyyou of youyou read theit actual posts? It doesnt't seem like it. Again, I'm not wanting the book to teach for me. I can, will, and am proud that God has found me worthy of such a task. I was just wondering if there were any other SUPPLEMENTAL sources of biblical wisdom that might prove helpful. It is not wise to not seek out all possible sources of golden nuggets that are available. I guess that I should assume that everyone that has ever done anything did that thing strictly on their own and never sought out help from additional avenues. I dare say that would be quite an assumption. It is not really a hard concept. Don't worry though, I will never seek out help again.

 

[Mling]

Google the phrase "nonviolent communication." I haven't read a lot about it myself, and I don't know how much of the concept has been written in dead-tree form, but the people I know who say they have read about it and are into it have communication styles which are incredibly effective, respectful and distinctly non-violent (by any definition or conception of.the word.)

Also worth looking into is "enthusiastic consent" or "radical consent." While they're generally thought of as being about sexual encounters, most people who look into the topic find that it starts influencing how they think about every form of human interaction.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Do anyyou of youyou read theit actual posts? It doesnt't seem like it. Again, I'm not wanting the book to teach for me. I can, will, and am proud that God has found me worthy of such a task. I was just wondering if there were any other SUPPLEMENTAL sources of biblical wisdom that might prove helpful. It is not wise to not seek out all possible sources of golden nuggets that are available. I guess that I should assume that everyone that has ever done anything did that thing strictly on their own and never sought out help from additional avenues. I dare say that would be quite an assumption. It is not really a hard concept. Don't worry though, I will never seek out help again.

You're asking for a book that in all probability would harm your daughter. That's why people are reluctant to be forthcoming. Instead of stubbornly ignoring the advice people are giving, I recommend you take on board the fact that everyone here is advising you not to set your daughter up for failure.