gentleman-ness/chivalry

[citizenthom]

Just because someone can never meet an ideal does not mean s/he should not strive for it. That's the entire point of the Christian walk.

No man will ever truly meet the Biblical standard for a husband (loving his wife "as Christ loves the church"), but young women should be taught to look for a man who understands that role and at least puts his best efforts into it, striving to improve himself daily.

To the OP: two things to consider. First, there is no substitute for your good example. As a woman's father goes, so goes her choice in men. You ARE her book on male behavior. The way you treat your wife is the way your daughter will think is "normal" for men to treat her. So start there: examine your own marriage, work on any problem areas with your own behavior, do the right things for and with your wife in full sight of your daughter.

Second, way before a young person can understand what a Biblical spouse looks like, she needs to understand what a Biblical WIFE looks like. Again, the first example will be your own wife and how she reacts to you. Also, young women get a LOT of bad examples from media and television now; when you see one together, explain to her what a good man finds disdainful about them (especially lack of respect and immodesty).

 

[Mling]

YouTube - ‪This is Why One Man, One Woman Works‬‏

That video is so badly named....how in the world does showing a rather sexist commitment commitment ceremony of some kind tell us why this "works?" Actually, it doesn't even show us *if* it works. Success isn't found at the start of the commitment, it's found at the end.

Of course, I suspect my definition of success in a relationship is somewhat different than other people's, as I don't require either party to be dead.

 

[Verv]

The chivalry modern people think of is a myth,

The codes of honor by knights were only for other peers. The command man was nothing and whole villages could be laid waste at a whim. Common soldiers were all killed and only peerage was kept so they could be ransomed.

And women? They were paraded around to the highest bidder or one that made the most political sense. Courtly love was in stories, not in reality. Like any romance novel.

The truth is somewhere in between.

Knights were sometimes great, awesome folk; sometimes they were terrible, bad folk.

I do not have any evidence to offer that they were good; I do nto have any direct knowledge to offer that they were bad, either.

But any group of people that existed for centuries and were comprised of thousands of people and had high values is bound to be one that is a vast mix of people that cannot be judged positively or negatively any way.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Another point I probably should've mentioned is, she's a teenager, you shouldn't be encouraging her to date at all especially under the requirements you seem to want to set out. I know some people don't mind their daughters and sons dating, I certainly wouldn't care. But based on what I've seen of you, no.

Also I'm not saying they don't exist - I know a guy who is one. But if you start teaching her "Look for a guy like this and only this" then she may pass up a guy she loves just because he doesn't fit the standards YOU set out.

 

[citizenthom]

Also I'm not saying they don't exist - I know a guy who is one. But if you start teaching her "Look for a guy like this and only this" then she may pass up a guy she loves just because he doesn't fit the standards YOU set out.

That's kind of the point: teenagers fall in love with some people they SHOULD pass up as marriage partners, and their parents are the primary people who guide them toward those wise but hard decisions.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

That's kind of the point: teenagers fall in love with some people they SHOULD pass up as marriage partners, and their parents are the primary people who guide them toward those wise but hard decisions.

Oh right, I forgot, the "sanctity of marriage" is all about a legal union so you can produce kids for the Almighty Lord with absolutely no love required, it's all about what mommy and daddy approve of. Right, I forgot, that's what we're defending right?



If what he's honestly looking for is not someone they truly love and feel a connection with but someone THEY want her to date, then they're doing it wrong - so, so horribly wrong.

 

[citizenthom]

"Falling in love" is a feeling. "Love"--the kind that drives marriage--is an action. Performing that action takes hard work and character. All the emotions in the world won't make up for the lack of those things. Marrying someone you have strong emotions for but who has no character is a common mistake for young people, and it is entirely appropriate for parents to protect them from making it.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

"Falling in love" is a feeling. "Love"--the kind that drives marriage--is an action. Performing that action takes hard work and character. All the emotions in the world won't make up for the lack of those things. Marrying someone you have strong emotions for but who has no character is a common mistake for young people, and it is entirely appropriate for parents to protect them from making it.

I never said "falling in love". I said "guy she loves".

And there's a big difference between chivalry and no character, just because a guy isn't chivalrous or because doesn't meet a certain standard of gentleman does NOT mean he has no character and no book is going to cover all the different kinds of guys. The only guy a girl needs to look out for is a guy who will respect her and who respects himself (and I suppose who isn't a psychopathic criminal offender) and once she finds that the rest should come with it. But he doesn't need to fit some definition because she will never find someone she actually loves, just someone she's attracted too, that's passable but she doesn't get that actual connection with and then the marriage is bound to fail.

 

[citizenthom]

I never said "falling in love". I said "guy she loves".

And if he does not love her, as the Bible defines that love (both in attitude and actions), she should not marry him. Other people can see that and identify those problems more easily than someone who is love-struck.

The only guy a girl needs to look out for is a guy who will respect her and who respects himself (and I suppose who isn't a psychopathic criminal offender) and once she finds that the rest should come with itl.

That's a pretty low standard; and again, divorce courts are littered with people who had standards that low and found out that in fact, it takes a lot more to make marriage work properly.

 

[***Jamey***]

I never said "falling in love". I said "guy she loves".

And there's a big difference between chivalry and no character, just because a guy isn't chivalrous or because doesn't meet a certain standard of gentleman does NOT mean he has no character and no book is going to cover all the different kinds of guys. The only guy a girl needs to look out for is a guy who will respect her and who respects himself (and I suppose who isn't a psychopathic criminal offender) and once she finds that the rest should come with it. But he doesn't need to fit some definition because she will never find someone she actually loves, just someone she's attracted too, that's passable but she doesn't get that actual connection with and then the marriage is bound to fail.

I agree. Respect is the most important part because there are plenty of guys who can pull out a chair, open a door etc just to look good. It is mainly for appearances and not out of respect for the girl. I see this a lot with "good christian guys" in church and I think if the girls knew them like I did they would run away .

 

[FaithLikeARock]

And if he does not love her, as the Bible defines that love (both in attitude and actions), she should not marry him. Other people can see that and identify those problems more easily than someone who is love-struck.



That's a pretty low standard; and again, divorce courts are littered with people who had standards that low and found out that in fact, it takes a lot more to make marriage work properly.

You're pretty explicitly taking my words out of context if you somehow got "she loves him but he doesn't love her" out of my original post.

Asking for respect is not a low standard. People in divorce court have a much higher tendency to go into marriage with high standards and then find out the guy wasn't the man of your dreams than they do going in with low standards and then making them higher.

And respect is not a low standard - I'm already wondering if you understand fully what respect is (by taking my words out of context you certainly aren't respecting me) and finding it in relationships is just as difficult and even if you do find a guy who's respectful it still takes work. But the IMMEDIATE judgement should have nothing to do with anything else. I'm not saying respect and only respect from day one to one thousand. I'm saying that should be the first sign to give him a shot. The rest comes later.

 

[***Jamey***]

That's a pretty low standard; and again, divorce courts are littered with people who had standards that low and found out that in fact, it takes a lot more to make marriage work properly.

I'm pretty young but I seriously don't think people take mutual respect into account... enough. Respect is a pretty high thing to demand because it takes effort on your part too.

 

[rjc34]

Why do you say so?

Because teaching her that boys should be waiting on her hand and foot, woo-ing her away, giving her all their attention, and basically to expect to be treated like a princess -- is not going to end well. Let the poor girl figure out boys herself, because telling her these ideal fantasies is just going to, well, disappoint her when she gets a dose of the real world.

 

[rjc34]

That's kind of the point: teenagers fall in love with some people they SHOULD pass up as marriage partners, and their parents are the primary people who guide them toward those wise but hard decisions.

Why is anyone even bringing up marriage? Is that the sole purpose of dating for teenagers now? What happened to summer flings! High school sweethearts!

 

[rjc34]

I'm pretty young but I seriously don't think people take mutual respect into account... enough. Respect is a pretty high thing to demand because it takes effort on your part too.

Respect is earned. Mutual is respect is a must for any relationship to work.

 

[Verv]

Sexual equality cuts both ways doesn't it?

If men are full of chivalry - what is the obligation of a woman?

 

[citizenthom]

Why is anyone even bringing up marriage? Is that the sole purpose of dating for teenagers now? What happened to summer flings! High school sweethearts!

Yes, evaluating someone for marriage is the sole purpose for Christian dating.

In fact, Christian teens and other teens have the same purpose for dating: to get laid. Christian teens just have a more mature and long-thinking perspective on 1.) when that should happen (in marriage), and 2.) the other things that go along with it.

 

[citizenthom]

Sexual equality cuts both ways doesn't it?

If men are full of chivalry - what is the obligation of a woman?

Respect for and submission to her mate, modest behavior, clothing herself in good deeds.

"Chivalry," BTW, is not a Biblical word; but a man who practices his Biblical role of leader and self-sacrificing caretaker in a relationship will generally meet what we would call "chivalrous" behavior.

 

[citizenthom]

Respect is earned.

That attitude--as well as the attitude that love and kindness are "earned"--is the root of most marital dissolutions. High on the list of things a young woman should look for in a man is someone she can respect unconditionally; and if she cannot do so, she should not marry him.

 

[Gishin]

That attitude--as well as the attitude that love and kindness are "earned"--is the root of most marital dissolutions. High on the list of things a young woman should look for in a man is someone she can respect unconditionally; and if she cannot do so, she should not marry him.

How terrible.