BrotherJJ

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Before the Cross
"God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Son that whoEVER should believe on Him would have everlasting life" John 3:16.

"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD
" 1 John 4:14

God sent Jonah to preach to gentiles - and warn them from their course, which spares their city.

Abraham intercedes for the city of Sodom and God agrees to spare it if just 10 good people could be found there.

Noah a gentile - but he is a "preacher of righteousness" in his day. 2 Peter 2.

"7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith." - Heb 11.

Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-7
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Cain is told in Gen 4 "SIN is at your door - you must master it" -- it was sin for Cain to be angry, to hate, to murder.

God tells Noah that he alone is righteous in all the Earth and so he and his family are spared. That means that after the flood the only humans on planet Earth are Noah and his few family members - the one family God said was "good" at the time of the flood and so at then end - only "the good" remained. All other humans killed at the flood.

Still from one "good' family came all the evil and all the good of mankind to this very day.

IT was always a sin for any human "to take God's name in vain". Gentile or not.


AT the Cross
1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole WORLD"

And still to this day

Rom 5 makes the case "all sinned"
Rom 3:23 makes the case "all have sinned"

1 John 3:4 informs us that "sin IS transgression of the Law".

Gentiles were in the synagogues "Sabbath after Sabbath" in Acts 17
Gentiles were scheduling more gospel preaching to be given "the next Sabbath" in Acts 13.
Gentile church in Ephesus told reminded that the "first commandment with a promise" (in the still-valid unit of TEN) is "honor your father and mother" in Eph 6:2.

And so.. for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth:
Is 66:23 in the New earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

===========================

No wonder Bible scholars in almost all major Christian denominations (and on both sides of the Sabbath discussion) affirm that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to all mankind and define what sin is.

The OP states Mosaic law!

The Ex 11:7 scripture speakes for itself. """"the LORD doth put a difference between the Nations and Israel"."""

I didn't write the scripture, I simply quoted it. You're free to disagree with it.

These God breathed verses were also in the OP You're free to disagree with then as well.

Ex 19:
3 God, spoke to Moses saying, Thus shalt thou "say to the house of Jacob" "and tell the children of Israel";
(NOTE: God tells Moses, say to the house of Jacob/children of Israel! Gentiles had/have NO PART in this law covenant)

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
(MY NOTE: When Moses gives the law to """the house of Jacob/children of Israel:""" They ALL AGREED, to the words the Lord had spoken)

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(MY NOTE: Circumcision: A blood covenant made with hands & required under Mosaic law)

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(MY NOTE: Gentiles referred to as the Uncircumcision (vs 11) were without God, having no covenant promises & a hopeless future)

Find more God breathed verses that make it clear. Gentiles weren't part of the Mosaic covenant cut between the Lord & Israel only!

Matt 4:23 The Lord Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their (JEWS) synagogues preaching the gospel of the kingdom,

Matt 10:5 The Lord Jesus sends the 12 & commanded them. Don't! go to Gentiles,

Matt 10:6 The Lord Jesus commands the 12: Only go! To lost sheep of the house of Israel,

Matt 15:24 The Lord Jesus said, He's only been sent to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,

Rom 15:8 Paul teaches, Messiah was sent to preach to the circumcision (JEWS),

Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God.
(MY NOTE: Pre-Christ's sin atoning death & resurrection ALL gentiles were viewed as impure, godless dogs, without hope, bastards living outside of covenant seals)

Matt 7:6 The Lord Jesus said, give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
(MY NOTE: Dogs, swine & gentiles all considered unclean/impure under Mosaic Law)

Matt 15:22-26, Vs 26 Jesus calls the Canaanite/gentile women a DOG!
(MY NOTE: Note: In Jesus [a Jew] day gentiles were considered to be godless & ceremonially unclean. The reference "dog" was a commonly known & used expression within the Jewish culture.

Jn 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the (roman/gentile) hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
(MY NOTE: Just being in the gentile Hall of Judgment made a Jew UNCLEAN!)

Ex 12:43-48. No foreigners, servants, sojourners or strangers could partake in the in the Passover meal unless they were circumcised. (Also see Gen 17:7-14)
(MY NOTE: Only people under the covenant of circumcision were allowed to eat the Passover meal. No foreigner was allowed into the Temple. Because they WEREN'T part of the Mosaic covenant!)

Anyone could become an Israelite:
They had to get circumcised, under-go a full Mikvah, bring a sin sacrifice to the Temple & willingly live/put themselves under Mosaic law. Once this was done the conversion was complete. They were no longer gentiles; they were part of Israel.

Noah, Abraham, Cain all lived long before the Covenant at Sinai. You can post & believe whatever you like. You can't put gentiles into the Mosaic law covenant. They simply don't fit! Best wishes, JJ
 
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GDL

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I read the first 2 pages of posts, but not the rest, so my apology if this Scripture has been posted & discussed:

YLT Romans 3:19-23 And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God; 20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, 23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

I'm using the YLT translation because many others say "under law" where I have underlined "in the law" in Romans 3:19. The YLT is translating the original language literally. The original does not use the wording typically translated as "under law."

It's been some time since I read and searched this for myself, but it's said that 9 or 10 of the 10 commandments can be seen in Genesis. Also, God is warning Abel about sin in Genesis 4:7 and Genesis 26:5 speaks of Abraham keeping law before Moses & Sinai.

The above verses in Romans seem to say that law affects all people & all are guilty & all did sin (which is lawlessness per 1 John 3:4). If all did lawlessness & all the world is guilty & no mouth will have an excuse before God, then it seems obvious that God's Law affects all people & thus so can God's grace in Christ (which Romans 3 goes on to say).

God's Law and the Mosaic Covenant are not viewed by many as the same thing. Sin is still an issue, so Law is also still an issue.

"Under law" is a technical discussion that has been discussed since the early days of the Ekklesia and is still being sorted out. I have a view of its meaning.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It's been some time since I read and searched this for myself, but it's said that 9 or 10 of the 10 commandments can be seen in Genesis.
This would be a very interesting bible study! I’m going to add this to my list of studies. I can think of two or three off the top, but I have never specifically looked for the Ten in Genesis. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
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Soyeong

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None of the OT verses you cite were written to or are applicable to the NT assembly. Your post also cites the 10 commandments.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to establish that it supported what they were saying and in order to show that that they hadn't depart from it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative and relevant to the NT assembly.

OT Sabbath Observance, OT assembly/Israel & NT assembly/Body of Christ.

BTW: Not being under the Mosaic law covenant cut on Sinai. Doesn't mean NT assembly is void of law. The law pillars of the NT law are Faith & Love.

Faith and love is the foundation of the Mosaic Law, so if you have faith and love, then you have everything in the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it is the way to have faith. If we have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong rather than leaning on our own understanding, then we will obey the Mosaic Law.

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good, and it would not be accurate to describe it as such if it were not His instructions for how to express those aspects of His nature. When we express aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law, then we are express our love for those aspects of His nature, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, idolatry theft, murder, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else God has commanded, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so they are all connected.

On Mt Sinai at the 1st Pentecost, when Moses give's the Law. The Nation of Israel is born. This is a covenant between God & Israel.

Gentiles were never a part of this law covenant: Rom 2:14 (A) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law (Eph 2:12)

In Exodus 12:38, there were was a mixed multitude that came up out of Egypt with the Israelites, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai. In Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have become followers of the God of Israel. Jews were in charge of copying and maintaining the Torah scrolls, so Jews had the law, and if a Gentile wanted to read one, then they had to go through a Jew in order to do it, though if you own a copy of the Bible, then you also have the law. Even if it were true that Gentiles were never part of the Mosaic Covenant, in Romans 2:14, Gentiles will by nature be doers of the law, so it doesn't make a difference. In Ephesians 2:19, everything said in Ephesians 2:12 is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are now fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God.

Ex 31:
16 Wherefore """the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath""", to observe the sabbath """throughout their generations""", for a perpetual covenant.

17 """It is a sign between me and the children of Israel""" for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(MY NOTE: Sabbath observance is between God & Israel. Gentiles were NEVER part of the Sinai law covenant w/God)

Not only were Gentiles included in Israel and the covenant, but in Isaiah 56:1-8, the Sabbath is clearly also for Gentiles. If we affirm the truth of what the Sabbath is a sign of, then we should live in a way that affirms that truth by keeping the Sabbath holy rather than a way that bears false witness against that truth by not keeping it holy.

Neh 9:
13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant
(MY NOTE: These LAW statutes & commandments: were given to & BEGAN with Moses & Israel "NOT BEFORE" after the deliverance from Egypt. Read the verses prior to 13 & 14 for additional clarity)

There are many laws that were part of the Mosaic Law that were given prior to the deliverance from Egypt, so that is demonstrably false, such as in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery. God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them began with Moses, but have existed for as long as God has been eternally righteous.

Deut 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
(MY NOTE: The Sabbath commandment came after the deliverance from Egypt. And was given only to the Nation of Israel)

In Genesis 2:2-3, God rested on the 7th day, blessed it, and made it holy, and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep it holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that. If our goal is to be in God's image, then we should follow his example by resting as He rested (Hebrews 4:10).

Conclusion:
Sabbath observance did not precede the Law of Moses. God's requirement for ""Israel"" to keep the Sabbath does not exist until after the deliverance from Egyptian bondage. And NO gentiles are or was ever a part of the Sinai Law Covenant.

The Law is "a covenant" or "a legal agreement". The Israelites were required to obey it fully if they were to receive its benefits. Find its benefits Deut 28:3-14 & its penalties Deut 28:16-68

Ex 19:
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
(MY NOTE: ALL the PEOPLE on Mt Sinai AGREE to do WHATEVER the LORD SAY'S. They don't even know WHAT the Lord told Moses & just agreed to. Additionally, Sermon on the Mount, Jesus puts the Law on steroids. By applying it to the thoughts & intents of the heart. Good luck keeping every thought & intent pure)

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Torah, so it is for all of are under the New Covenant.

Paul explains the real purpose of the Law:

Gal:
19 It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made
(NOTE: The law was in effect, (TIME SENSITIVE WORD >>>) ""Until""" the promised seed (Christ) should come. After that the law is to cease. (See Rom 10:4)

Christ did not go around with the message that the law had ended and that we need to stop repenting, but just the opposite, so Galatians 3:19 should not be interpreted as undermining everything that Jesus accomplished through his ministry. In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works is the way to believe in what he accomplished through his ministry and the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be rejecting everything he accomplished. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus came in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, not by doing away with our need to turn from our wickedness.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as though righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead, so nothing in this passage has anything to do with Jesus ending God's law, but just the opposite.

23 Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith
(MY NOTE: The law was a TEACHER to expose, condemn sin without mercy to death. So, people would understand they need rescue. Christ is the redeemer & His redemption is accessed thru FAITH (Rom 5:1-2)

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster
(MY NOTE: The law's purpose is also revealed in Rom 3:19-20 as producing a consciousness of sin. Paul say's we wouldn't know what sin is except by the Law (Rom 7:7)

God's law brings us to Christ because it teaches us to know him, not so that we can reject everything he taught and accomplished through the cross and go back to living in sin. The way to have faith in God to divide between right and wrong instead of leaning on our own understanding is not by refusing to follow his law, but just the opposite. If you agree that we would not know what sin is if it were not for God's law and that we should refrain from doing what God has made know to be sin, then you should agree that we should obey God's law.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(MY NOTE: Anyone claiming the law is still in effect. Is claiming Jesus failed at his mission. It was His Sinless God blood atoning payment/wage. That did in fact fulfill the law's sin requirement DEATH (Rom 6:23)

Jesus said he came not to abolish the law and he succeeded in that mission. He also said he came to fulfill the law and he also succeeded in that mission by spending his ministry teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example.

Sabbath observance ISN'T one of the commands the apostles felt was necessary to force on Gentile believers. SEE 2 the Council at Jerusalem posts above!

The Apostles called for Gentiles to repent from their sins, and God's law is how we know what sin is.

Find more help Rom 14:5, Acts 20:7, 1 Co 16:2 Gal 5:13.

Paul was not an enemy of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul said than to disregard anything that God has commanded. When God has commanded something and you think that Paul spoke against obeying what He has commanded, then you have a decision to make about who has the higher authority and which one to follow, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for him was if they taught against obeying His law, so if Paul did as you suggest, then according to God we should regard him as being a false prophet.

Here’s what Paul had to say about the Sabbath in Colossians 2:17-18. Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

These things were a shadow of the things that were to come. Christ is the light!

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His command in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans who were teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God, so it is ironic when people try to use these verses to justify their refusal to obey God. Indeed, Christ is the light, sadly everything in your post was arguing in favor of rejecting that light:

Psalms 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
 
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GDL

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There are many laws that were part of the Mosaic Law that were given prior to the deliverance from Egypt, so that is demonstrably false, such as in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery. God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them began with Moses, but have existed for as long as God has been eternally righteous.

So important to understand.
 
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GDL

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About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to establish that it supported what they were saying and in order to show that that they hadn't depart from it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative and relevant to the NT assembly.

I'm just flagging you by quoting you above.

Firstly, the first topic of the Text I studied with interest after coming to Christ was God's Law. All the antinomianism didn't make sense to me then & it still doesn't. Much to most of professed Christianity today seems so worldly and beset with sin, and there's a reason for this. So, I find your posts to be very informative and many things you say align with my thinking and studies.

So, my question to you after some statements: I'm familiar with, have looked at the 613 Laws per Maimonides many times, and have read some of his writings. I've read and studied many books on God's Law. I've read the Tanakh several times, have studied some of the writings, am trained in Greek exegesis, have had some training in Hebrew, have focused on exegesis of the NC Writings for a few decades after seminary, have inventoried & studied all the commandments in the NC & have taught some of them, and have yet to find a clear teaching on all of God's commandments in His Law.

So, do you know of such a compilation or any detailed studies on God's Law?

It's well & good to talk about obeying God's commandments, and I'm in agreement that we are to be doing just that, in Christ by His Spirit, but what are they all? I also am in complete agreement that God's Law is a disclosure of His character that we are to have after Him & that as He is eternal, thus so is His Law. It's this that led me to conclude that we'd best know Him if we knew His Law.

Also, I think I saw a post of yours regarding circumcision. Can you point me to it, or repost your thoughts about applicability or non today?

Thanks.
 
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Soyeong

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I'm just flagging you by quoting you above.

Firstly, the first topic of the Text I studied with interest after coming to Christ was God's Law. All the antinomianism didn't make sense to me then & it still doesn't. Much to most of professed Christianity today seems so worldly and beset with sin, and there's a reason for this. So, I find your posts to be very informative and many things you say align with my thinking and studies.

So, my question to you after some statements: I'm familiar with, have looked at the 613 Laws per Maimonides many times, and have read some of his writings. I've read and studied many books on God's Law. I've read the Tanakh several times, have studied some of the writings, am trained in Greek exegesis, have had some training in Hebrew, have focused on exegesis of the NC Writings for a few decades after seminary, have inventoried & studied all the commandments in the NC & have taught some of them, and have yet to find a clear teaching on all of God's commandments in His Law.

So, do you know of such a compilation or any detailed studies on God's Law?

I'd recommend this, though you might be able to find a used set for cheaper:

Depths of the Torah, Commentary Set + Audio Magazine

It's well & good to talk about obeying God's commandments, and I'm in agreement that we are to be doing just that, in Christ by His Spirit, but what are they all? I also am in complete agreement that God's Law is a disclosure of His character that we are to have after Him & that as He is eternal, thus so is His Law. It's this that led me to conclude that we'd best know Him if we knew His Law.

I completely agree, God's law is His instructions for how to know Him through experiencing his nature. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken His law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to His law is the way to know Him and Jesus, who is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law (Romans 10:2-4).

Also, I think I saw a post of yours regarding circumcision. Can you point me to it, or repost your thoughts about applicability or non today?

Thanks.

According to Galatians 5:2, Paul warned them that if they accept circumcision that Christ is of no value to them, so if he was speaking against accepting circumcision for any reason, then he caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised in Acts 16:3 right after the Jerusalem Council, and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US, which leaves open the possibility that there are correct and incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and he was only speaking against circumcision for incorrect reasons rather than speaking against obeying what God has commanded.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose, which should not be mistaken as ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God. That leaves open the possibility that a Gentile could become circumcised for a correct purpose in accordance with what God has commanded, such as if they wanted to eat of the Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:43-49, 1 Corinthians 5:6-8).

While Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:19 that circumcision has no value and that what matters is obeying the commands of God, he also said in Romans 3:1-2 that circumcision has much value in every way, so the issue is that the value of circumcision is conditionally dependent on whether we obey the Mosaic Law (Romans 2:25).

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God wanted His people to obey His commandments and circumcise their hearts. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:33, the context is the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising their hearts by means of the Spirit, and returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law in accordance with the New Covenant, where God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and sent His Spirit to lead us to obey His law, and where He will put the Mosaic Law in our minds and write it on our hearts. In Colossians 2:11-13, In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, in Jeremiah 9:25-26, God will punish those who are circumcised merely in the flesh, but do not have circumcised hearts. So the New Covenant is all about Israel returning to obedience to the Mosaic Law and having a circumcised heart does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. This is also what is being described in Colossians 2:9-14 and Acts 15:7-9.
 
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GDL

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I'd recommend this, though you might be able to find a used set for cheaper:

Depths of the Torah, Commentary Set + Audio Magazine

Thank you! Will look at it.

I completely agree, God's law is His instructions for how to know Him through experiencing his nature. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.

In my experience teaching & discussing Scripture, very few look at this explanation of eternal life in John 17:3 and correlate it to explanations of what it means to know God even though there are Scriptures like this: NKJ 1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

As you've pointed out, there is criteria and definition to such phrases as "knowing God." And I think we both know that it really boils down to obeying Him. People tend to think they know Him while thinking and even living in antinomianism.

I'm going to digest the rest of your post when I have a bit more time.

Thanks again.
 
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GDL

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I'd recommend this

Looks interesting. Interesting Ministry. Have watched them since their beginning (and some Messianic predecessors before them) and have purchased & read several of their books. Hadn't checked in recently & hadn't seen this volume. My favorite assembly experience was many years ago & a few years with a small Messianic group with a well-versed Rabbi able to teach from, explain & correlate both covenants. Then had to move on...
 
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Soyeong

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Looks interesting. Interesting Ministry. Have watched them since their beginning (and some Messianic predecessors before them) and have purchased & read several of their books. Hadn't checked in recently & hadn't seen this volume. My favorite assembly experience was many years ago & a few years with a small Messianic group with a well-versed Rabbi able to teach from, explain & correlate both covenants. Then had to move on...

Have you attended either Kehilat Sar Shalom or Beth Immanuel?
 
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GDL

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Have you attended either Kehilat Sar Shalom or Beth Immanuel?

Neither. Was in CA at the time attending the Messianic assembly & going to seminary mainly to learn the languages. Then literally moved to an island to study for many years during which mainly my soteriology changed quite a bit. Now on the east coast still in studies and not attending at this time. Both look interesting & I'll look more. As I said, I've been watching Messianics for some time, not in the last few years though, & watching their ministries & positions mature. Again, thanks.

One of the interesting Reformed Theology guys, Greg Bahnsen, deceased, whose basic work on Law I enjoyed bottom lined the discussion in 3 words: By What Standard? IOW if not God's Law, correctly understood & used lawfully, then what other standard do we have? It amazes me how slow on the uptake humanity is.
 
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