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Genetic basis for human evolution

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KerrMetric

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Mark,

I shall start a new thread on this later. I have almost finished the paper and also some other references. I also have some calculations based on all this data.

It might be a a few hours before I start the thread - I actually, believe it or not - have a life external to here and some work I have to do of my own research.

Peace
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Mark,

I shall start a new thread on this later. I have almost finished the paper and also some other references. I also have some calculations based on all this data.

It might be a a few hours before I start the thread - I actually, believe it or not - have a life external to here and some work I have to do of my own research.

Peace

What! You have other things in your world more important then talking to me? I am deeply offended.

Seriously though, take your time and I look forward to discussing this further.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
What! You have other things in your world more important then talking to me? I am deeply offended.

Seriously though, take your time and I look forward to discussing this further.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Mark,

Your main problem (as you stated in a prior post) was that the mutation rates inplied by the genomic comparison was far to high by any credible mechanism.

Before I start the thread can you tell me what makes you think this?

Why is 35 millon SNP's or 5 million indels in your opinion too high?

Why couldn't it be 350 million and 50 million? Why not 350 or 5? What is your expectation based upon?
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Mark,

Your main problem (as you stated in a prior post) was that the mutation rates inplied by the genomic comparison was far to high by any credible mechanism.

Before I start the thread can you tell me what makes you think this?

Why is 35 millon SNP's or 5 million indels in your opinion too high?

Why couldn't it be 350 million and 50 million? Why not 350 or 5? What is your expectation based upon?

The answer is simplicity itself, we are talking about 7 nucleotides being substituted and fixed, per year, genome wide for 5 million years. Nothing like this happens in nature. That does not even take into consideration the indels that are at least 4 times as large or the chromosomal rearrangements that are upwards of 4 million nucleotides in length.

What is my real problem with this, I think that is pretty obvious. This does not happen in nature but we are supposed to assume that this is exactly what happened to apes in order to produce human beings. I have talked with a Biologist, a Geneticist and one of the authors about this who all concluded that I am off my nut. Still, they never answered the most important question here, how on earth did this level of divergance present itself for natural selection to preserve it.

Take your time with the paper, we can discuss this a little more in depth when you have digested it.
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
Nothing like this happens in nature. What is my real problem with this, I think that is pretty obvious. This does not happen in nature but we are supposed to assume that this is exactly what happened to apes in order to produce human beings.

Why should I not think this just sounds like an appeal from incredulity? Maybe this is what does happen in nature.

Take your time with the paper, we can discuss this a little more in depth when you have digested it.

I am.
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Why should I not think this just sounds like an appeal from incredulity? Maybe this is what does happen in nature.

Maybe it's not what happens in nature, that's the point. How come I can't conclude that you are just argueing from incredulity because you can't convieve of how God acted in time and space to produce these differences by divine fiat?




That's good, I look forward to discussing this further. Once again, take all the time you need and I'll check the forum regularly for your responses.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
Maybe it's not what happens in nature, that's the point. How come I can't conclude that you are just argueing from incredulity because you can't convieve of how God acted in time and space to produce these differences by divine fiat?

I haven't given my argument yet - I haven't even said if I agree or not with you.

But what I am noticing Mark is that you are stating it is impossibly high but for that claim to have a basis you need a metric for making it. You are implying a number is larger than your expected number essentially. What is your number? You can't say it is impossibly high if you have no metric for the problem.


******I'll put up my stuff after your response to this.******
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
I haven't given my argument yet - I haven't even said if I agree or not with you.

But what I am noticing Mark is that you are stating it is impossibly high but for that claim to have a basis you need a metric for making it. You are implying a number is larger than your expected number essentially. What is your number? You can't say it is impossibly high if you have no metric for the problem.


******I'll put up my stuff after your response to this.******

Listen to me for a second and please don't jump to conclusions. The divergance rate is higher then was expected. The numbers are in the paper, I am expecting it to be well over the acceptable amount, most biolologists woud disagree.

Let's keep this civil and I really hope we can. Take a look at the divergace rate and tell me how this happened without divine intervention or something very simular.

Let's look at this like two Christians curious about the same thing. I think this is alltogether possible, what are your thoughts about the paper?

Take your time, we have as much time as you need.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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shernren

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I think KerrMetric's question is how do you know that the divergence rate is "higher than expected" unless you had some prior expectations of what the divergence rate should be? In which case, what were the prior expectations and how did you arrive at them? Without a coherent response to that I would essentially agree with KerrMetric, it sounds like an argument from incredulity. Nobody is arguing that God couldn't have done it, what you are arguing is that God couldn't have done it naturally, and right now it seems that the onus is on you to prove the inadequacy of naturally known genetic methods to introduce divergence.
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
Listen to me for a second and please don't jump to conclusions. The divergance rate is higher then was expected. The numbers are in the paper, I am expecting it to be well over the acceptable amount, most biolologists woud disagree.

Please tell me what an acceptable number in your mind would be? The paper does not seem at odds with earlier incomplete analyses.

What is your acceptable amount and where do you get this amount from?
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Please tell me what an acceptable number in your mind would be? The paper does not seem at odds with earlier incomplete analyses.

What is your acceptable amount and where do you get this amount from?

It would not be an amount, it would be a ratio. We are different by one tenth of one percent, I draw the line there. We are different from apes by so many millions of nucleotides that it is not even a fair question.

125Mb no matter how many nucleotides you think are involved. That is in addition to the Chromosomal rearrangements and no one has even bothered to address this point, or any of the others for that matter.

The comparison, just check it out and we can talk some more. Or at least, talk about it which would be a nice change.
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
It would not be an amount, it would be a ratio. We are different by one tenth of one percent, I draw the line there. We are different from apes by so many millions of nucleotides that it is not even a fair question..

Well the literature usually talks about mutations per genome per generation or mutations per base pair per generation. I figured you had a number in mind that was allowable versus this paper being unallowable.

What do you mean by 'We are different from apes by so many millions of nucleotides that it is not even a fair question..'?

I am not parsing this. What is not fair?
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Well the literature usually talks about mutations per genome per generation or mutations per base pair per generation. I figured you had a number in mind that was allowable versus this paper being unallowable.

What do you mean by 'We are different from apes by so many millions of nucleotides that it is not even a fair question..'?

I am not parsing this. What is not fair?

125 million nucleotides is enough for me. What is enough for you?
 
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KerrMetric

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mark kennedy said:
125 million nucleotides is enough for me. What is enough for you?

Mark you are talking in riddles now. I'm trying to get a fair and accurate picture of your understanding and position here. Why are you being coy?

What do you think is an allowable mutation rate? What does not constitute an allowable rate?

What was not fair in your previous post? What do you mean by 125 million is enough for me?

Please clarify this.
 
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shernren

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It's a simple question ... before you saw the paper Mark, or assuming you have never seen the paper, what do you think is the maximum rate of genetic divergence which can be generated by evolution? I don't know what units you want to use, but since we are discussing a paper on genetics, a reasonable unit would be difference in bases per year, or the equivalent number of difference in megabases per million years.
 
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mark kennedy

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shernren said:
It's a simple question ... before you saw the paper Mark, or assuming you have never seen the paper, what do you think is the maximum rate of genetic divergence which can be generated by evolution? I don't know what units you want to use, but since we are discussing a paper on genetics, a reasonable unit would be difference in bases per year, or the equivalent number of difference in megabases per million years.

I don't have an exact number but I am thinking less then 1%, more like 1/10th of 1%. Dogs only vary by about 1.5% but there are some 30,000 distinct breeds and species. Adapation does not happen because the genes are somehow altered, it doesn't really work that way. What drives evolution is the availability of new alleles.

We have been told for decades that we are 98% ape in our DNA. This has been conclusivly proven to be completly false. 125Mb in 5 million years, that is at least 100 nucleotides fixed per generation the entire time. My question would be, if it happened then why did it just stop? There is nothing like this being observed or demonstrated in modern biology.
 
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mark kennedy

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KerrMetric said:
Mark you are talking in riddles now. I'm trying to get a fair and accurate picture of your understanding and position here. Why are you being coy?

This is not new information, 35 million SNPs (that is in each lineage btw) then another 5 million indels the say is 90 Mb collectivly. You also have 9 pericentric chromosomal inversions involving a lot of functionally important genes. Some of these are over 4 million nucleotides long, no real explanation how such an inversion is even possible

What do you think is an allowable mutation rate? What does not constitute an allowable rate?

If varies but there are about 130 genetic mutations in you, obviously the vast majoritiy don't do anything at all. That averages around 98% for neutral effects, the vast majority of the rest are deleterious (harmfull). Last time I asked someone knowlegable about such things the answer I recieved was 2x10^-8. That was pretty consistant with the spontaneous mutation rate I have seen in scientific publications.

What was not fair in your previous post? What do you mean by 125 million is enough for me?

I have no idea what you are asking here or why. Let's start with the SNPs, there are 35 million of them. These are single nucleotides that diverge in the repective genomes. Do you know how they proved that amino acids come in triplet codons? They take out one nucleotide, the reading frame shuts down, they take out two nucleotides and the reading frame shuts down. When they replace three it stays open (assuming they are the right three of course).

Please clarify this.

I still have no idea what you question is about. I'll tell you what, when you finish the paper we can get into the details a little better. Mesured in Mbs we are looking at well over 125 Mb, that is 35 million SNPs and almost 5 times that amount in indels. I am still wondering what exactly you need clarified.
 
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shernren

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I don't have an exact number but I am thinking less then 1%, more like 1/10th of 1%. Dogs only vary by about 1.5% but there are some 30,000 distinct breeds and species. Adapation does not happen because the genes are somehow altered, it doesn't really work that way. What drives evolution is the availability of new alleles.

But I wouldn't say that the absolute divergence is so important as the rate of divergence. An analogy: suppose I present you a man who can run 100 km in a day. That's one fantastic athlete! But let's suppose I claim that I'm a good athlete too and I say "I can run 100km in one year." You'd laugh your head off at me.

See what I mean? Your incredulity is not with absolute divergence - not just 125 Mb, but 125 Mb over 5 million years. So tell me: what does modern biology observe? What is the maximum rate of divergence there?

To be honest I don't know very much about the biological side of evolution either, and I'm interested to learn. :)
 
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mark kennedy

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shernren said:
But I wouldn't say that the absolute divergence is so important as the rate of divergence. An analogy: suppose I present you a man who can run 100 km in a day. That's one fantastic athlete! But let's suppose I claim that I'm a good athlete too and I say "I can run 100km in one year." You'd laugh your head off at me.

See what I mean? Your incredulity is not with absolute divergence - not just 125 Mb, but 125 Mb over 5 million years. So tell me: what does modern biology observe? What is the maximum rate of divergence there?

To be honest I don't know very much about the biological side of evolution either, and I'm interested to learn. :)

What biology is observing and measureing is the guy who ran 100km in a year. This is how it works, DNA is in the three diminsional form that was made so famous by Watson, Crick and company. In the nucleous of Eukayrotes it is unzipped by enzymes. The strands as they are unzipped are sent to the ribosome that translates them into proteins. The proteins are the building blocks of the new cells.

What we have with this paper is a nearly unsolvable problem, what happens when the genetic code is altered? Most of the time nothing happens but there are transposable elements, no one is really denying this. Some genes are more conserved and this is very important to realize. The genes effecting the brain are highly conserved, changes there can be utterly devastating. They result in things like mental retardation, Alzehiemers and brain tumors. The question for evolutionary biology is how beneficial effects are derived from changes at an amino acid sequence level.

That is why this paper is so important, they actually looked for the divergance. It took a lot of courage for them to admit the differences, they are extensive. That is the cool thing about science, the evidence cannot lie. Things would have had to change at a dramatic level. We are not 98% ape, in fact, I am not convinced that it is even 90%. Evolution would have had to create differences by some currently unknown process for natural selection to preserve changes on this level.
 
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shernren

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I asked a quantitative question ... you gave a qualitative answer.

This is how it works, DNA is in the three diminsional form that was made so famous by Watson, Crick and company. In the nucleous of Eukayrotes it is unzipped by enzymes. The strands as they are unzipped are sent to the ribosome that translates them into proteins. The proteins are the building blocks of the new cells.

I know that, including the RNA you seem to have left out :p the "biological side" that I don't know too much about are things like mutation and fixation rates, divergence rates, etc.

What we have with this paper is a nearly unsolvable problem, what happens when the genetic code is altered? Most of the time nothing happens but there are transposable elements, no one is really denying this. Some genes are more conserved and this is very important to realize. The genes effecting the brain are highly conserved, changes there can be utterly devastating. They result in things like mental retardation, Alzehiemers and brain tumors. The question for evolutionary biology is how beneficial effects are derived from changes at an amino acid sequence level.

Can you pass me some research on the brain genetics you're mentioning? It seems interesting and off the top of my head it seems like you're describing an "attractor" within the phase-space of possible genomes. Think of the set of all possible genomes as a flat piece of rubber. I take the rubber and stretch it downwards in certain places and upwards in others, to get an uneven surface with peaks and valleys. The peaks would represent deleterious genomic changes (e.g. trisomy 21) and the valleys would represent beneficial genomic changes (e.g. the nylon bug mutation). If I put a steel ball on the rubber (ignoring the dent made by the ball itself) where will the ball go? Away from hills and into valleys. In the same way the gene pool of a species gravitates to increase the relative proportion of beneficial mutations.

Now, imagine you are the ball. One day you wake up in the middle of a deep hole. You try to push yourself out but you can't overcome the gradient. Therefore should you conclude that since there is no way out of the hole, there is no way into the hole, and you must have been dropped there by divine fiat? Obviously not. Everybody knows that it is far easier for a ball to roll *into* a hole than out of.

Similarly, the genes you describe as "conserved" may not count as evidence against evolution. Just because they cannot be mutated away from, does not mean they cannot be mutated into.

[But all this is a knee-jerk reaction to what I think you're trying to express by "conserved". I may be wrong. I'd love to see the formal science you're referring to.]

That is why this paper is so important, they actually looked for the divergance. It took a lot of courage for them to admit the differences, they are extensive. That is the cool thing about science, the evidence cannot lie. Things would have had to change at a dramatic level. We are not 98% ape, in fact, I am not convinced that it is even 90%. Evolution would have had to create differences by some currently unknown process for natural selection to preserve changes on this level.

But what is the rate? And why does the rate seem so incredulous? I don't get why you don't get my question. If I told you "I can run 200km" you might think I'm lying - but only if you unconsciously assume that I must have run that 200km in a short period of time.

Is the rate of divergence really that earth-shattering?
 
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