Genesis

[rmwilliamsll]

If we can't get a certain basic universal meaning from Scripture, then everything is open to individual personal interpretation, one that allows such a wide variety of views that its impact becomes diluted and even impotent.
"this is my body"

That's an interesting approach, following an interpretive community.
i am self consciously committed to a reformed interpretation of Scripture.

The primary thing though is that the Bible governs my thinking, not ideas or text from outside of Scripture.

this is not possible nor even a potential goal.
the problem of the canon is the best evidence for it's failure.
the very canon, the table of contents for the Bible is not in the
Bible itself but is part of history. you must, even to pick up a Bible be assenting to a whole series of historically determined things that have no counterpart in Scripture.

 

[vossler]

The primary thing though is that the Bible governs my thinking, not ideas or text from outside of Scripture.

this is not possible nor even a potential goal.
the problem of the canon is the best evidence for it's failure.
the very canon, the table of contents for the Bible is not in the Bible itself but is part of history. you must, even to pick up a Bible be assenting to a whole series of historically determined things that have no counterpart in Scripture.

I'm not really having too much difficultly with this one. The doctrine of God being sovereign covers this without any problem.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm not really having too much difficultly with this one. The doctrine of God being sovereign covers this without any problem.

but it makes the effort not to import information from the world into your reading of Scripture impossible, you don't even know what is Scripture without reference to historical data.

so:
The primary thing though is that the Bible governs my thinking, not ideas or text from outside of Scripture.


is from the moment you pick up a Bible not possible for you are using an historically gained idea of canon.anyone who realizes what that process took can only be impressed that more people don't find this a very persuasive and compelling argument against the mistaken notion of solo Scriptura, or just me and my Bible.

 

[vossler]

but it makes the effort not to import information from the world into your reading of Scripture impossible, you don't even know what is Scripture without reference to historical data.

If God is sovereign then He's in control of everything and first and foremost on His list would be His Word. Given that His Word is infallible then anything and everything it references is true. I have no doubt in my mind that we bring things, our experiences, the world, etc., into our reading of Scripture, but the HS is there to assist us in our understanding.

The primary thing though is that the Bible governs my thinking, not ideas or text from outside of Scripture.


is from the moment you pick up a Bible not possible for you are using an historically gained idea of canon. anyone who realizes what that process took can only be impressed that more people don't find this a very persuasive and compelling argument against the mistaken notion of solo Scriptura, or just me and my Bible.

Isn't it interesting, I see it from the opposite perspective.

 

[Deamiter]

I highly disagree with this statement. The YEC's did not have to "make up" a rule...it was a common understanding that the days in Gen. 1 were literal days. There's no rule...it's just common sense reading.

Ah, I thought that when you quoted this (without a citation so I'm afraid I don't know where it's from) you were trying to argue that it MUST have ment 24-hour periods:

Yom + ordinal number (used 410 times) always indicates an ordinary
day.
ii. The words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ together (38 times) always
indicate an ordinary day.

Apparently the confusion stemmed from your departure from the standard creationist teaching that there IS such a rule. I agree with Barr by the way -- much like mswilliamsll -- I just try to stick to one topic at a time rather than leapfrogging all over the place.

Here's some major creationist organizations that have tried to make up rules about the Hebrew language:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/answersbook/sixdays2.asp
http://www.icr.org/article/689/
http://www.gotquestions.org/Genesis-days.html

Perhaps you should correct your fellow creationists when they try to claim that Yom and an ordinal number cannot be anything other than a 24-hour period?

Anyway, I'll stop going on about this since apparently we agree that there is no such rule in Hebrew.

 

[Deamiter]

If God is sovereign then He's in control of everything and first and foremost on His list would be His Word.

Utterly unsupported assumption that is apparently central to your theology but is neither Biblically nor traditionally based.

 

[vossler]

Utterly unsupported assumption that is apparently central to your theology but is neither Biblically nor traditionally based.

No surprise here.

 

[shernren]

I highly disagree with this statement. The YEC's did not have to "make up" a rule...it was a common understanding that the days in Gen. 1 were literal days. There's no rule...it's just common sense reading.

But what would that rule say about this little doggerel?
On the first day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
A partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day.)


On the second day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the second day.)

On the third day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the third day.)

On the fourth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the fourth day.)


On the fifth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the fifth day.)

On the sixth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Six geese a-laying,
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: forget it, I've got a sore throat, and I can never tell when one verse ends and the next verse begins.)

 

[jds1977]

Shernren...next time try it in an octave lower...I think you were a little out of your vocal range lol

 

[Xaero]

Notice, the argument is about the word "yom"... used in conjunction w/ "evening" and "morning"...not evening and morning alone.

I've read through every verse which contains "day" + ("evening" and/or "morning") and know them quite well now ^^

again...you've missed the point

again you've missed the task:
http://blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=day+morning
http://blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=day+evening
Please show me examples where the phrase "it was evening/morning" in combination with "day " appears in reference to human days ... and don't quote statistics again.

Ok...first of all, day six does involve human activity.

yea, you are right day six does involve a lot of human activity like adam getting created, adam tilling the ground, naming the animals, falling into deep sleep, getting a mate, eating the forbidden fruit and get kicked out of Eden - all on day six? Or did i miss the "evening .. morning ..day" verse somewhere between Genesis 2 and 3?

Secondly, don't you think He would have let us know if it was longer like 1,000,000 years?

Don't you think he would let us know that the earth was just created few thousands years ago, everytime the creation is mentioned in scripture? He simply lets us know through studying his creation: Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."
Psalm 97:6 " The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory."
How can the heavens declare God's righteousness ... Psa 8:3 " when I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;" ... and they seem to fake an old age?

He could have used terms like He did w/ Abraham in Gen 22:17..."as stars of the heaven" and "sand which is upon the sea shore"

He could have told us several times in scripture ,where his creation is mentioned , that it is only few thousand years old, for example when Paulus explained the "Unknown God" to the Athenians: "Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you: God that made the world and all things therein 'in 6 days, four thousand years ago'"
Why does "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth.." in Genesis 2:4 not say something like "These are the 6 days of creation" or "This is the creation week"?

OTOH , references to a very old age are often made using old (olam) created things like mountains,hills or the heavens:
Deut 33:15 "And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,"
Psalm 90: "Before the mountains were brought forth .."

Proverb 8:25: "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills .."
Psalm 68:33"To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, [which were] of old; "
Psalm 102:25 "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands."

Nowhere is any living animal, man or whatsoever used to depict vast ages, although they should be only few days younger than the rocks according to yec doctrine!
But wait, didn't say modern creationism that most of the landscape was created in-and-after the flood? That would make the hills only a few decades old from the sight of the patriarchs...
​

How do you explain Exodus 20:11?

It is clear that gods time ain't man's time. Furthermore God's creation is arranged in 6 steps, so this pattern is used to teach the israelites how to arrange their working times. The purpose is that man should not work all the time: "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" He should rest after 6 days and take this day to ask for god and praise him as the Creator. The 6 days of creation don't stand for millions or billions or one normal day or one year. It's just the categorisation of God's creation steps and should not considered as strictly consecutive.

Should we work for 6,000,000 years and rest for the 7th million?

This is something our politicians and employers would like us to do

 

[shernren]

Shernren...next time try it in an octave lower...I think you were a little out of your vocal range lol

Lol. But I still like that song as a means of proving my point. Were the Twelve Days of Christmas in the song literal days? Were the gifts literal gifts? Were there literal lover and beloved?

If you think a little carefully about these questions you might see why we believe what we believe about Genesis.

 

[jds1977]

Well..it really depends on which version of The 12 days of Christmas you're referring to...the Alexandrian or the Byzantine lol

 

[pastorkevin73]

But what would that rule say about this little doggerel?
On the first day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
A partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day.)


On the second day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the second day.)

On the third day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the third day.)

On the fourth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the fourth day.)


On the fifth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.


(solo: And there was evening, and there was morning, the fifth day.)

On the sixth day of Christmas,
my true love sent to me
Six geese a-laying,
Five golden rings,
Four calling birds,
Three French hens,
Two turtle doves,
And a partridge in a pear tree.

(solo: forget it, I've got a sore throat, and I can never tell when one verse ends and the next verse begins.)

I believe the term "Strawman" fit here. But I do think it is funny that you sang that far into the song.

 

[Deamiter]

No, a strawman is when you misrepresent your opponent's position to make it easier to refute. If anything it would probably be a bad comparison (though I find the comparison rather good for showing the refrain in Genesis that creationists tend to avoid when they're examining the literary type to see if it should be "literal.")

A strawman would be saying, "evolution says dogs come from cats and they don't so evolution is wrong."

 

[shernren]

But seriously. What sets The Twelve Days of Christmas apart from Genesis 1? Their narrative structure is almost identical.

Twelve Days: On the first day, ... on the second day, ... on the third day, ...

Genesis 1: ... and there was evening and morning, the first day ... and there was evening and morning, the second day ... and there was evening and morning, the third day ...

If I didn't know better, I'd say those were refrains in Genesis 1, wouldn't I?

 

[Assyrian]

The fact that it repeats a partridge in a pear tree twelve times tell us the author meant it to be taken seriously. Everywhere else we read of day and Christmas together it is meant literally. There are only 341 shopping days to Christmas folks.

And who sent author the partridge? His true love, not his allegorical love or his mythical love. The meaning is clear.

 

[keltoi]

God flooded a bunch of people. One family escaped because they made a boat and took all their domesticated animals aboard. It becomes a great metaphor for salvation, for God's mighty acts. Now why, in order to demonstrate God's ?whatever?, do you require that the Chinese, the Egyptians, the MesoAmericans and Australian aboriginals participate in your little flood? the ancient Israelites knew nothing about them and cared even less.

Book, chapter and verse thanks that says this was a little flood. The others are correct God would not have gone to such depth of manipulation just to wipe out a few Semites. BTW were they Semites b4 the flood. If so where does it say this.

To the ancients the world was flat and visible from the highest mountain peaks in it's entirety. their world was spatially and temporally very much smaller than ours. They were content with flooding their little world, why must you infer that your much larger world must be likewise flooded in order for their story to be true?

Show me where it says that the pre-flood peoples believed the world was flat.You cannot because there is no evidence for this what so ever. Your assertion is based on your assumption that all people on earth believed the same things. We know this was not the case.

All the world should be taxed.
God so loved the world.

And the point of this is what exactly?

only universalists are consistent, all only means the extent of the domain under discussion for those people Scripture was written by, not us. our world is much much bigger and longer lived than anything ever imagined by the ANE mind.

No it doesn't and you are assuming without any evidence to prove it that the ancients did not travel beyond a point that the new as the horizon and in doing thisrelising that the world went beyond the horizon. You are also assuming that when they stood on top of the moutains they did not see the curvature of the earth and in doing this deduced for themselves it could indeed be round. Instead you are assuming because 1 group thought this then all must have.

 

[mushowani]

I believe the greatest answer pertaining to creation can be obtained from God Himself. In Genesis 1 one can see how thing were brought into existance. In the book of Job, when God replies Job out of the storm; He goes to a great length outlining the mystery of creation. The whole boke of Job is full of such information. I urge you to explore and find out on your on. It's all in black and white. God bless u!!!

 

[pastorkevin73]

But seriously. What sets The Twelve Days of Christmas apart from Genesis 1? Their narrative structure is almost identical.

Twelve Days: On the first day, ... on the second day, ... on the third day, ...

Genesis 1: ... and there was evening and morning, the first day ... and there was evening and morning, the second day ... and there was evening and morning, the third day ...

If I didn't know better, I'd say those were refrains in Genesis 1, wouldn't I?

Comparing scripture to a fun song? Ridiculous!

 

[Assyrian]

Luke 7:32 They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another,"'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.'

Jesus has a place for children's songs in in his word.