Genesis

[jds1977]

Dan 8:26 "And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days."
From the context of the prophecy it seems that "morning" and "evening" refers to the rise and fall of the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 8.

Ummm...read the verse..."many days"...many=

7227​

br; rab {rab}​

Meaning:​

adj 1) much, many, great 1a) much 1b) many 1c) abounding in 1d) more numerous than 1e) abundant, enough 1f) great 1g) strong 1h) greater than adv 1i) much, exceedingly n m 2) captain, chief​

Origin:​

contracted from 07231; TWOT - 2099a,2099b​

Usage:​

AV - many 190, great 118, much 36, captain 24, more 12, long 10, enough 9, multitude 7, mighty 5, greater 4, greatly 3, misc 40; 458 ...
that's a no-brainer

Also, the exact phrase "and there was evening and there was morning" is never used again outside from Genesis 1 to describe the passing by of a regular 24-hour day. Show me this phrase elsewhere in scripture! I couldn't find one:

notice the thread...it doesn't say..."the exact phrase" it says "Yom + ‘evening’ or ‘morning’ (23 times each)". I think you've missed the point.

Here's a link to a simple Hebrew linguistics explanation of Gen 1 being narrative or poetic http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v4/i1/linguistics.asp

Psa 90:6 "In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth."
Grass doesn't grow up and get withered in one day.
The morning and evening refers to the lifespan of grass

Psalm 90:6 does not even have the word yom in it. So, I'm not really sure what the point is with that.

here is a good article about the uses of yom...it's somewhat lengthy but, if you want to cut to the chase, scroll down to the objections and answers part.

All that happened before the sun was created?

God created light...you don't have to have a sun to have light. All He needed for a solar-day was a light source.
​

 

[jds1977]

I left out the link to that article...here it is http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v5/i1/semantic.asp

Xaero, I just read my post earlier, sorry if I sounded rude or sarcastic.

 

[Deamiter]

Does James Barr count?

James Barr absolutely does NOT support any kind of rule that shows that YOM means 24-hour period when connected with a particular type of number etc...

Again, this rule has never existed in the Hebrew language outside of YECists trying to fit Genesis into their assumptions about the age of the earth.

 

[Mallon]

Again, according to the creationist model, how can we be sure that 1 day = 24 hours if the universe's constants have always been changing???

 

[vossler]

Again, according to the creationist model, how can we be sure that 1 day = 24 hours if the universe's constants have always been changing???

I think that's the biblical model to which you're referring. It is the evolutionists that introduce other models. Creationists are, at least in this respect, similar to God, unchanging.

 

[Mallon]

I think that's the biblical model to which you're referring. It is the evolutionists that introduce other models. Creationists are, at least in this respect, similar to God, unchanging.

Yeah. Right.
Can you please answer the question?

 

[KerrMetric]

Creationists are, at least in this respect, similar to God, unchanging.

But if you have the wrong understanding to begin with then unchanging is not a positive trait. Let's not get all high and mighty and equate a Creationists understanding with God's meaning. They are not synonymous.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I think that's the biblical model to which you're referring. It is the evolutionists that introduce other models. Creationists are, at least in this respect, similar to God, unchanging.

the problem is the modern YECist movement can be easily dated and explained as a 19thC reaction to the rise of science and the challenge of historicism to Scriptural interpretation. It is neither a restorationist movement aiming at the recovery of lost faith nor a remnant movement that can claim long ancient roots in protest to the dominant ideology. Rather it is, like it's mirror image counterpart, atheist scientism, just a modern intellectual (or is it anti-intellectual) movement.

 

[Assyrian]

Psa 90:6 "In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth."
Grass doesn't grow up and get withered in one day.
The morning and evening refers to the lifespan of grass

Psalm 90:6 does not even have the word yom in it. So, I'm not really sure what the point is with that.

The psalm itself does, just 2 verses before, that wonderful verse about a thousand years in God's sight being as a day. So if days can be non literal, and evening and morning can also be used figuratively, what is it about using them together that means they have to be literal?

 

[Xaero]

Ummm...read the verse..."many days"...many=

"many days" isn't connected to the duration of the "evening and morning", it means the time until the phrophecy takes place.

notice the thread...it doesn't say..."the exact phrase" it says "Yom + ‘evening’ or ‘morning’ (23 times each)". I think you've missed the point.

This isn't satisfying, since "evening" and "morning" is used differently in all other occurences.
Again, show me where "there was evening and there was morning" appears elsewhere in scripture to identify the passing by of a normal day.

Psalm 90:6 does not even have the word yom in it. So, I'm not really sure what the point is with that.

Exd 18:13 "And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening."... has also not the word "day" in it but is clearly understood as the passing by of a human day because of the use of the prepositions "from" and "unto" in the context with human beings.

Psalm 90 and Daniel 8 shows how "evening" and "morning" refers to something that is completely different from "sunset" and "sunrise".

Again, explain me why you think that the days of genesis are human time and not gods time. Every other occurences of "day" and "evening" or "morning" involves human activity.
In Genesis 1 only God is acting.

 

[Assyrian]

With no human beings around during the creation, the days in Genesis 1 could only have been days in God's sight.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Exd 18:13 "And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening."... has also not the word "day" in it but is clearly understood as the passing by of a human day because of the use of the prepositions "from" and "unto" in the context with human beings.

corrected by a subsequent posting.

see: http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/h040.gif

 

[Xaero]

(Genesis 1)
and there was evening: וַיְהִי- עֶרֶב
and there was morning: וַיְהִי- בֹקֶר
(Exodus 18)
from morning: מִן-הַ בֹּקֶר
unto evening: עַד-הָ עָרֶב

.. the pretext from Gen1 is different than that of Exo18
I am not a hebrew scholar, but מִ (at "from morning") always appears in other "from ..." passages, so i think it isn't just added for readablity but excactly meant in this way.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

(Genesis 1)
and there was evening: וַיְהִי- עֶרֶב
and there was morning: וַיְהִי- בֹקֶר
(Exodus 18)
from morning: מִן-הַ בֹּקֶר
unto evening: עַד-הָ עָרֶב

.. the pretext from Gen1 is different than that of Exo18
I am not a hebrew scholar, but מִ (at "from morning") always appears in other "from ..." passages, so i think it isn't just added for readablity but excactly meant in this way.

you are absolutely right.
i was under the now obviously mistaken idea that blueletterbible put all the words in the word list. they do not.

i will correct my posting immediately.
reps for helping, and showing me this error. i wonder if i've done it before?
ouch.

 

[Xaero]

Thanks for the reps ...

Blueletterbible doesn't list every word - for some translation you have to search in other verses.

וַיְהִי : "it was" is a flexion of the verb[SIZE=-1]"hayah" and is found nowhere outside the creation account combined with evening or morning.
Nowhere in scripture do you read ".. and there was evening" to describe the time of the sunset.

There's only one case of 'was': "when it was morning" in Exodus 10:13, but this verse has no "hayah" in context and the word 'was' is therefore an english addition. Other Bible versions (NIV) translated it as "When morning arrives ...", "By morning ...", "
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] In german (Luther) it is translated like "at morning" or in Elberfelder Bible: " .. when morning came".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
So the creationist claim that 'evening' and 'morning' in combination with 'day' "throughout the whole scripture cannot mean anything other than an ordinary human day" melts away by further examination like any other creationist claim.

Groups like AiG misuse such statistics ...
[/SIZE]

i.​

Yom + ordinal number (used 410 times) always indicates an ordinary
day.
ii. The words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’ together (38 times) always
indicate an ordinary day.​

iii.​

Yom + ‘evening’ or ‘morning’ (23 times each) always indicates an
ordinary day.​

iv.​

Yom + ‘night’ (52 times) always indicates an ordinary day.
b. Genesis 2:4—Yom is not qualified with a number or the phrases
‘evening and/or morning,’ and represents a period of time.​

[SIZE=-1].. to backup their claim. But they fail to tell us how the words been used in detail and how it all differs from the phrase "and .. evening ... and .. morning" in Genesis 1.


[/SIZE]

 

[pastorkevin73]

Again, according to the creationist model, how can we be sure that 1 day = 24 hours if the universe's constants have always been changing???

According to the evolutionist model how can it not be? There in nothing in history to suggest that a day is any less or more than 24 hours.

Gee, for people who swear by science I had not idea that you would cause such a ruckass surrounding a "day".

 

[Brennan]

According to the evolutionist model how can it not be? There in nothing in history to suffest that a day is any less or more than 24 hours.

Gee, for people who swear by science I had not idea that you would cause such a ruckass surrounding a "day".

A 'day' is how long it takes the Sun to appear to orbit the planet. Go stand on a different celestial body and the day certainly won't be 24 hours long.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

A 'day' is how long it takes the Sun to appear to orbit the planet.

so another geocentric here?

sounds a bit like language of appearances. wouldn't time to rotate on planetary axis be sufficient?

 

[pgp_protector]

A 'day' is how long it takes the Sun to appear to orbit the planet.

so another geocentric here?

sounds a bit like language of appearances. wouldn't time to rotate on planetary axis be sufficient?

Depends, if the rotation around the planetary axis is equivilent to the time it takes to orbit a star, then there would be no day / night cycle.

 

[Mallon]

According to the evolutionist model how can it not be? There in nothing in history to suffest that a day is any less or more than 24 hours.

There is nothing in history to suggest that radioactive decay is ever-changing either, but that doesn't stop YECs from arguing for it.
That's my point -- If you're going to play apologetics and argue for ever-changing constants, why take the uniformitarian route and suppose a biblical "day" = 24 hours? Is this not hypocrisy?