Genesis interpretation question

[James D.]

I've heard some people say that the evolution can't be right because the bible says that God created mankind. My question is this: If God simply created the laws of nature and these just happened by chance to result in humans, can't you still say that god created mankind?
Is this interpretation inconsistent with any other part of the bible?

Thanks for help.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by James D.
I've heard some people say that the evolution can't be right because the bible says that God created mankind. My question is this: If God simply created the laws of nature and these just happened by chance to result in humans, can't you still say that god created mankind?
Is this interpretation inconsistent with any other part of the bible?

Thanks for help.

"Is this interpretation inconsistent with any other part of the bible?"

It's only inconsistent with part of it. The part after "In the beginning."

 

[Didaskomenos]

James D.,

npetreley's sarcasm notwithstanding, a chance development of our race doesn't fit the Bible very well.

1) This sounds a lot like deism - and the Bible's insistence on God's direct and personal intervention into the affairs of humankind doesn't give any room for deism.

2) Whether the creation story/stories in Genesis is literal or mythical, the Bible teaches that God made man, implying an active and intentional role that God took.

The creation story/stories taken in whole and God's intervention into humankind's affairs since human consciousness appeared seem to preclude our arrival as an afterthought. God may very well have used evolution to accomplish his ends, but we should find no reason to doubt that our existence is due to God's rolling the die by setting into effect the laws of nature (which he would have foreknown would result in us, thereby removing the possibility of mere chance). In short, if evolution is the way it happened, it was not by chance.

Are you simply asking if God could have used evolution? The answer is yes.

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by npetreley


"Is this interpretation inconsistent with any other part of the bible?"

It's only inconsistent with part of it. The part after "In the beginning."

I suppose you could answer that by saying it was referring to "the beginning" in a general sense of an early time before the history of human societies.

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
James D.,

npetreley's sarcasm notwithstanding, a chance development of our race doesn't fit the Bible very well.

1) This sounds a lot like deism - and the Bible's insistence on God's direct and personal intervention into the affairs of humankind doesn't give any room for deism.

2) Whether the creation story/stories in Genesis is literal or mythical, the Bible teaches that God made man, implying an active and intentional role that God took.

The creation story/stories taken in whole and God's intervention into humankind's affairs since human consciousness appeared seem to preclude our arrival as an afterthought. God may very well have used evolution to accomplish his ends, but we should find no reason to doubt that our existence is due to God's rolling the die by setting into effect the laws of nature (which he would have foreknown would result in us, thereby removing the possibility of mere chance). In short, if evolution is the way it happened, it was not by chance.

Are you simply asking if God could have used evolution? The answer is yes.

I see your point. Although some people believe that real chaos can actually happen (chaos theory). As far as I know, we haven't verified that chaos actually exists, just that certain things can be so extremely complex as to be impossible to predict the outcomes. But that's not surprising. If we had ways to predict all outcomes there'd be no disasters and everyone could know lotto results beforehand.
But even if chaos did exist, an omnipototent being, by definition would still have control over it. Although, that path of thought might be ignoring occham's razor.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by James D.

I suppose you could answer that by saying it was referring to "the beginning" in a general sense of an early time before the history of human societies.

I must admit that's a very creative misinterpretation of scripture, no pun intended.

 

[Shimon]

The scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the world until after Adam and Eve sinned.  If G-d had used evolution to create the world, and the world is "billions of years old" as evolutionists claim, then it would logically follow that every living organism that "evolved" would've had to have lived for millions of years, because there was no death until after Adam and Eve sinned.

 

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon
The scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the world until after Adam and Eve sinned

I'd be interested to know whether the Bible does in fact say this. I am familiar with the doctrine, but I have never seen its scriptural source. Could you cite the passage?

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by Jerry Smith


I'd be interested to know whether the Bible does in fact say this. I am familiar with the doctrine, but I have never seen its scriptural source. Could you cite the passage?

Genesis 3: 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.

22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by Shimon
The scriptures tell us that death did not enter into the world until after Adam and Eve sinned.  If G-d had used evolution to create the world, and the world is "billions of years old" as evolutionists claim, then it would logically follow that every living organism that "evolved" would've had to have lived for millions of years, because there was no death until after Adam and Eve sinned.

 

Shimon

Why do you write God as "G-d"?

 

[flyingpenguin]

One other fact of the Bible that doesn't work well with evolution is that Eve was created from Adam's rib. If evolution was caused by God, then Eve would have been created the same way Adam did...which would be opposed to what the Bible said.

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith:

I'd be interested to know whether the Bible does in fact say this. I am familiar with the doctrine, but I have never seen its scriptural source. Could you cite the passage?

Romans 5:12-14: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.


James D:

Why do you write God as "G-d"?

Out of respect for His Name. Jews typically write "G-d" and "L-rd" so as not to use His Name lightly.

Exodus 20:7: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.


Shimon

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by Shimon


James D:



Out of respect for His Name. Jews typically write "G-d" and "L-rd" so as not to use His Name lightly.

Exodus 20:7: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.


Shimon

Ahh okay. So you're Jewish? What do you consider to be a "misuse" of God's name?

 

[Shimon]

James D:

Ahh okay. So you're Jewish? What do you consider to be a "misuse" of God's name?

I'm a Messianic Jew.  I was not born Jewish, but I became a Messianic Jew once I began to learn and understand the Joy of Torah. 

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a "sin" to mention His Name when discussing Him and His commandments, but it's an attempt to display the utmost respect for His Name.

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon
James D:



I'm a Messianic Jew.  I was not born Jewish, but I became a Messianic Jew once I began to learn and understand the Joy of Torah. 

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a "sin" to mention His Name when discussing Him and His commandments, but it's an attempt to display the utmost respect for His Name.

Shimon

I take it then, that Messianic Jew is the name adherent of a particular religion. I wouldn't think that it is the Hebrew religion or Judaism, since the designation "messianic" would almost be redundant there, and from what little I know of messianic Jews they hold views considered blasphemous by most forms of Judaism. Is it the Christian religion? If so, why the designation "messianic jew", when "Christian" would do just as well? Is it a new religion?

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon
Jerry Smith:



Romans 5:12-14: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Thank you - I will check out the various translations. It may be that this passage refers to human death, not all death. After all, without the death of at least "tissue" (the kind inflicted by eating the fruit of a plant, if not the foliage as well), it is difficult to see how any organism survived before the "fall". In addition, the Bible says that every "green" thing was there for food for humans, so one would think that there was death before the fall at least in the plant kingdom, according to one interpretation of Genesis.

As far as animal death, one wonders if all of the carnivorous beasties were created after the fall, or if their bodies were completely re-worked to adapt them to a carnivorous diet at that point...

 

[flyingpenguin]

I am going to get blasted for knowing the exact verse, but I am pretty sure that the Bible states that all animals ate plants before Adam sinned and death entered the world.

David

 

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally posted by flyingpenguin
I am pretty sure that the Bible states that all animals ate plants before Adam sinned and death entered the world.

How long did the plants stay alive after they were eaten?

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

I take it then, that Messianic Jew is the name adherent of a particular religion. I wouldn't think that it is the Hebrew religion or Judaism, since the designation "messianic" would almost be redundant there, and from what little I know of messianic Jews they hold views considered blasphemous by most forms of Judaism. Is it the Christian religion? If so, why the designation "messianic jew", when "Christian" would do just as well? Is it a new religion?

No, it's not a new religion. The twelve Apostles were Messianic Jews, as were all other Jewish believers of Yeshua. The term "Christian" originated in Antioch -- a Gentile city. Messianic Jews are simply Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah. Jews do not stop being Jews simply by accepting Yeshua as Messiah. Jews who accept Yeshua prefer not to use the name "Christian" because Jews have been killed and persecuted in the name of Christianity throughout the centuries as the following link illustrates:

http://www.jcrelations.net/res/incidents.htm

flyingpenguin:

I am going to get blasted for knowing the exact verse, but I am pretty sure that the Bible states that all animals ate plants before Adam sinned and death entered the world.

Who says the plants died?

God gave mankind fruits and seeds to eat as food. Plants were given to animals as food in the Garden of Eden -- that was the purpose of plants in the first place. But, there is nothing that says that the plants died. I have a lot of animals and insects eating plants in my garden, but the plants are still alive.

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon
Jerry Smith


No, it's not a new religion. The twelve Apostles were Messianic Jews, as were all other Jewish believers of Yeshua. The term "Christian" originated in Antioch -- a Gentile city. Messianic Jews are simply Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah.

Ok, so a Messianic Jew doesn't worship the messiah as a god, or teach or believe anything against the Jewish religion, but they do believe that Jesus was the messiah, right?

Jews do not stop being Jews simply by accepting Yeshua as Messiah.

No, of course not. Jews by ethnicity do not stop being ethnic Jews no matter what their religion, and Jews who hold to the tenents of the Hebrew religion do not stop being religious Jews by identifying a person as the prophecied messiah.

The only way to stop being a religious Jew is to accept another religion in its place, such as Christianity, where the Sabbath isn't observed, the Law of the Tanach isn't observed, and a person is deified (which is blasphemous according to the Hebrew religion).

Since you are not an ethnic Jew, I assume you are a religious Jew. Since all Jews expect a messiah, I was confused by the designation. I see that you recognize a specific messiah. There are other Jews who recognized a messiah (the Ludovites?) - are they "messianic Jews" too, or just the ones who recognize Yeshua?