Genesis interpretation question

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

Ok, so a Messianic Jew doesn't worship the messiah as a god, or teach or believe anything against the Jewish religion, but they do believe that Jesus was the messiah, right?

Messianic Jews recognize Yeshua's divinity. "The Word was with God and the Word *WAS* God." Yeshua is G-d come in the flesh. Most Messianic Jews don't see G-d as a "Trinity," but as One. The "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are three separate *offices* of G-d, not three separate entities.

The only way to stop being a religious Jew is to accept another religion in its place, such as Christianity, where the Sabbath isn't observed, the Law of the Tanach isn't observed, and a person is deified (which is blasphemous according to the Hebrew religion).

Messianic Judaism isn't a "new religion." It's what was intended all along. The only major difference between Messianic Judais and mainstream Christianity is that Messianic Jews realize that Torah is still in effect -- it should still be obeyed. The Torah was never rendered obsolete.

Since you are not an ethnic Jew, I assume you are a religious Jew. Since all Jews expect a messiah, I was confused by the designation. I see that you recognize a specific messiah. There are other Jews who recognized a messiah (the Ludovites?) - are they "messianic Jews" too, or just the ones who recognize Yeshua?

Messianic Jews are the only Jews who recognize Yeshua as the Son of G-d as far as I'm aware.

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon

Messianic Jews recognize Yeshua's divinity.

I suppose it is a matter of self-identification. Mormon's are Christians because they identify themselves as such. I suppose people who worship a man as a god can still identify themselves as Jewish. Thanks for clearing that up.

Messianic Judaism isn't a "new religion." It's what was intended all along. The only major difference between Messianic Judais and mainstream Christianity is that Messianic Jews realize that Torah is still in effect -- it should still be obeyed. The Torah was never rendered obsolete.

Messianic Jews are the only Jews who recognize Yeshua as the Son of G-d as far as I'm aware. [/B]

I was interested in whether other Jews who identify someone other than Yeshua as the messiah would also be considered "Messianic Jews" the way you are. I also wonder why any Jew that believes in a coming messiah would not be considered a "Messianic Jew." Is the identification of the messiah with Yeshua a necessity for anyone who claims to be a "Messianic Jew"? Also, what about a Jew that recognizes Jesus as the messiah, but will not worship a man as god because of their religion? Whould he be a "Messianic Jew" or the regular kind?

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

I suppose it is a matter of self-identification. Mormon's are Christians because they identify themselves as such. I suppose people who worship a man as a god can still identify themselves as Jewish. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeshua isn't just a man, he is YHVH come in the flesh.

I was interested in whether other Jews who identify someone other than Yeshua as the messiah would also be considered "Messianic Jews" the way you are. I also wonder why any Jew that believes in a coming messiah would not be considered a "Messianic Jew." Also, what about a Jew that recognizes Jesus as the messiah, but will not worship a man as god because of their religion? Whould he be a "Messianic Jew" or the regular kind?

"Messianic Jews" is just the name we are called by, if you prefer "Yeshua Jews" or something similar, that's okay. I don't know how the name came to be chosen. "Messianic Jews" is a just a name to distinguish us from Traditional Judaism who doesn't recognize Yeshua as Messiah.

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Originally posted by Shimon
Jerry Smith

Yeshua isn't just a man, he is YHVH come in the flesh.

I see where you are coming from. Yeshua, a man, is also God in the flesh. That is contrary to the orthodox Jewish position that no man is God, but I guess there is no rule that you have to be orthodox to be Jewish.

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

I see where you are coming from. Yeshua, a man, is also God in the flesh. That is contrary to the orthodox Jewish position that no man is God, but I guess there is no rule that you have to be orthodox to be Jewish.

Well, let's see:

Yesha'Yahu 7:14: "Therefore Adonai Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."

How many men do you know of that were born of a virgin?  Why was He called "G-d with us?"  Why do you suppose He was born on the Feast of Sukkot and tabernacled among us?  Why do you suppose He first revealed Himself at the Feast of Redemption (Pesach) and was killed on the Feast of Redemption?

B'resheet 49:10:  "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come, and unto him shall the gather of the people be."

A "sceptre" is, of course, the symbol of authority for a king to reign.  This means that there will always be a king from Judah in Israel until something takes place.

Is there a king in Israel from Judah today?"  No.

Are they planning to have a king in Israel from the tribe of Judah?  No.

Then this verse must have been fulfilled, right?

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

How many men do you know of that were born of a virgin?

My mother when she conceived my oldest sister was a virgin in one sense of the Hebrew word. In another sense, she was a virgin for quite a while before she conceived my sister, so that at any point a prophet could have said that this virgin (my mother) would conceive a child as prophecy.

Why was He called "G-d with us?"

Can you translate Isra-el, Ishma-el, Ezeki-el, Dani-el.... What do those names mean?

edited to add: or Hezekiah

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

My mother when she conceived my oldest sister was a virgin in one sense of the Hebrew word. In another sense, she was a virgin for quite a while before she conceived my sister, so that at any point a prophet could have said that this virgin (my mother) would conceive a child as prophecy.

Yes, all women were virgins until they consummated their marriage. If the prophecy was speaking in this sense, it wouldn’t be much of a prophecy, would it?

Can you translate Isra-el, Ishma-el, Ezeki-el, Dani-el.... What do those names mean?

I know the names, but I’m not yet fluent in Hebrew. I can read it, but I can’t yet write it very well, and my vocabulary is rather limited. I can recite the Siddur. I’m still taking lessons and learning Hebrew, it’ll take some time to speak it like a pro.

Isra’el: G-d prevails.

Ishma’el: G-d will hear.

Ezeki’el: G-d is my strength.

Dani’el: G-d is my judge.

You didn’t answer my question about the king of Y'hudah, so let’s take it a little further:

Ezeki'el the prophet tells us that there will be a disruption of the lineage of the kings of Y’hudah (Ezeki'el 21:8-13, 24-47). “Remove the turban and take off the crown… until he comes whose right it is and I will give it to him.” Also Psalm 89:39.

The Babylonians killed the kings ending their lineage of heirs. Then the Hasmoneans placed someone on the throne until a great tragedy happened in the land of Israel at the hand of Caesar. Josephus tells us that Herod the Great was the last true king of Israel.

Question: Do you know of a well-known Israeli who came along during the time of Herod the Great that changed not only Israel but the entire world as the prophecies have foretold? Answer: Yeshua.

Has anyone else agreed with this conclusion? The Torah tells us to confirm the witness by having at least two or more witnesses for confirmation.

Yesha’yahu 11:10: “And in that day there shall be a root of Yishay, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the gentiles seek: and His rest shall be glorious.”

Question: Have the Gentiles been drawn to Him? Answer: Yes.

Yesha’yahu 53:1-3: “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Question: Who was this written to? Answer: Jews.

Question: Have the Jews despised and rejected Him? Answer: Yes, and still do.

Question: Who does the rest of this chapter sound like to you? Answer: Yeshua.

Jews are correct about one thing, though: The “Jesus” that is taught by mainstream Christianity could not POSSIBLY be the Messiah. Christianity teaches that “Jesus freed us from the Torah,” which would, of course, disqualify Him as the Messiah.

But that isn’t what Yeshua taught. Yeshua said:

Mattit’yahu 5:17-20: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

And, of course, we know what must take place for “all to be fulfilled:”

Yirmeyahu 31:31-34: Behold, the days come, saith Adonai, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra’el, and with the house of Y’hudah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith Adonai: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Adonai, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Adonai: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Adonai: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The “New Covenant” is the Torah written on the heart by the Ruach HaKodesh -- *NOT* the abolition of the Torah as the Gentile church teaches. It is the Torah, obeyed from the heart with joy and zeal because of the indwelling of the Ruach HaKodesh and is based on the forgiveness of sins.

Shimon

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith

edited to add: or Hezekiah

Hehe! Oooh, tricky one... I *think* it means "YHVH is my strength"...?

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

Shimon... I am going to take this to PM's. I do not post on any boards here other than evolution forum, and this is not topical for this forum.

 

[Shimon]

Jerry Smith:

You're right, it would be more appropriate there.  My apologies.

Shimon

 

[Jerry Smith]

My apologies: I was the one who asked about your religion. I should have just PM'd you in the first place. I have sent you one PM already.

 

[James D.]

Wow, this thread has gone very off topic.

Shimon, does your religion accept any parts of the new testament? Does it have any written account of Jesus?

 

[Shimon]

James D:

Shimon, does your religion accept any parts of the new testament? Does it have any written account of Jesus?

Heh! "My religion?"

Yes, Messianic Jews accept all of the books of the B'rit Chadasha (New Testament).

Shimon

 

[James D.]

Originally posted by Shimon
James D:



Heh! "My religion?"

Yes, Messianic Jews accept all of the books of the B'rit Chadasha (New Testament).

Shimon

Hmm. I know it's only a matter of semantics. But by many people's definition, you are a Christian.

 

[Shimon]

James D:

Hmm. I know it's only a matter of semantics. But by many people's definition, you are a Christian.

Heh!  Well, that's not a completely inaccurate statement.  In a sense, we are "Torah-observant Christians."  Messianic Judaism maintains the same Jewish heritage and Jewish observances.  Messianic Judaism recognizes that Yeshua did not "free us from the Torah" as the gentile church claims, but again, this off-topic.

Shimon