Genesis chapter 1 and reality

[cupid dave]

"if all the mass m of the universe were converted into energy, space time would disappear. Energy takes up no space, and both time and space are only defined when mass exists."
at no point does this statement imply space time and matter is the effect of a big bang transformation of pre existing energy. What it does imply is that Energy takes up no space, which is completely untrue. Sure, for us to define terms we need to exist in material form, but an electromagnetic wave would have a wavelength, and effective mass regardless of us existing to observe the fact. The equation E=MC2 basically observes that mass is energy. Matter is bound in space, when the Energy is liberated it takes up more space. Time and space would still exist if all the matter were annihilated, since we define both time and space in terms of electromagnetic radiation.

It is probably not all that importnt but certainly Energy is not mass, even though one can be transmuted into the other.

The Atomic Bomb was the evidence that mass diappears as enormous energy appears in its place, in quantities that can be predicted by E = mC^2.



And, since Energy is actually defined as an ability, we can see that no Space/time would be necessary to contain it.
But, to be more mathematical in this observation, once ZEnergy appears in Space/Time it is called Power.

Power, E/t, is the measure of energy over the time it is operating,

 

[Huram Abi]

Some energy has mass, Cupid.

And you need to learn the difference between mass and matter.

 

[Huram Abi]

"if all the mass m of the universe were converted into energy, space time would disappear. Energy takes up no space, and both time and space are only defined when mass exists."
at no point does this statement imply space time and matter is the effect of a big bang transformation of pre existing energy. What it does imply is that Energy takes up no space, which is completely untrue. Sure, for us to define terms we need to exist in material form, but an electromagnetic wave would have a wavelength, and effective mass regardless of us existing to observe the fact. The equation E=MC2 basically observes that mass is energy. Matter is bound in space, when the Energy is liberated it takes up more space. Time and space would still exist if all the matter were annihilated, since we define both time and space in terms of electromagnetic radiation.

 

[Huram Abi]

I disagree since the seven layers of the firmament we call our Atmosphere end with the Exosphere, or that boundary where Outer Space begins:



The Firmament above
1) Tropo-sphere
2) Strato-sphere
3) meso-sphere
4) Thermo-sphere
5) Iono-sphere
6) Magneto-sphere
7) Exo-sphere

As you have been told befor, there are 5 principal layers of the atmoshere. The ionosphere is not a principal layer, and the Magnetosphere is the region surrounding a planet where the planet's magnetic field dominates. It's not actually an atmospheric layer (not temperature or composition related), but it does couple with the ionosphere due to the nature of magnetic fields and ionized particles.

The point is that these layers are within the 5 principal layers. If you are going to count the layers other than the 5 principal layers, you should probably not leave out any so it isn't misleading anyone to think that these layers magically add up to 7.

8) Ozone layer
9) heterosphere
10) homosphere
11) planetary boundary layer

 

[cupid dave]

Some energy has mass, Cupid.

And you need to learn the difference between mass and matter.

?
REALLY...?

We can measure the POTENTIAL energy in terms of mass, but the seven different forms of kinetic energy acting at any moment has no mass.

We can see this clearly in that the photon mass must be zero or it would not always be traveling at the speed of light.

 

[cupid dave]

As you have been told befor, there are 5 principal layers of the atmoshere. The ionosphere is not a principal layer, and the Magnetosphere is the region surrounding a planet where the planet's magnetic field dominates. It's not actually an atmospheric layer (not temperature or composition related), but it does couple with the ionosphere due to the nature of magnetic fields and ionized particles.

The point is that these layers are within the 5 principal layers. If you are going to count the layers other than the 5 principal layers, you should probably not leave out any so it isn't misleading anyone to think that these layers magically add up to 7.

8) Ozone layer
9) heterosphere
10) homosphere
11) planetary boundary layer

Don't just google, put on your thinking cap...

1) The "planetary boundary layer" is the part of the troposphere
google: Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2) The Homo and Hetero layers refer to how well mixed the component gases of a layer are mixed together.


3) The ionosphere, the part of the atmosphere...
google: Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(It has practical importance because it influences, for example, radio propagation on the Earth. It is responsible for auroras.)


4) The ozone layer is contained within the stratosphere and is not a sphere but one of the 12 gases found in the atmosphere.

 

[DanielGillan]

It is probably not all that importnt but certainly Energy is not mass, even though one can be transmuted into the other.

The Atomic Bomb was the evidence that mass diappears as enormous energy appears in its place, in quantities that can be predicted by E = mC^2.



And, since Energy is actually defined as an ability, we can see that no Space/time would be necessary to contain it.
But, to be more mathematical in this observation, once ZEnergy appears in Space/Time it is called Power.

Power, E/t, is the measure of energy over the time it is operating,

Energy is mass, Energy equals mass multiplied by a constant. If light had no mass it would have no problem escaping the gravitational potential well of a black hole, it would not deviate from it's path when travelling close to large celestial objects. However it does !

Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed, it is a measure of the rate at which work is done, and is the first differential of Energy with respect to Time. Not a measure of energy over the time it is operating, which is actually the action of a system, and is the integral of energy over time.
And since Energy is defined as the ability to move, Energy could not exist without space and time.

 

[Huram Abi]

?
REALLY...?

We can measure the POTENTIAL energy in terms of mass, but the seven different forms of kinetic energy acting at any moment has no mass.

We can see this clearly in that the photon mass must be zero or it would not always be traveling at the speed of light.

The photon mass must be 0? only at rest mass, which it never is.

Try again.

 

[Huram Abi]

Don't just google, put on your thinking cap...

1) The "planetary boundary layer" is the part of the troposphere
google: Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2) The Homo and Hetero layers refer to how well mixed the component gases of a layer are mixed together.


3) The ionosphere, the part of the atmosphere...
google: Atmosphere of Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(It has practical importance because it influences, for example, radio propagation on the Earth. It is responsible for auroras.)


4) The ozone layer is contained within the stratosphere and is not a sphere but one of the 12 gases found in the atmosphere.

Nice try. There are still only 5 layers.

And you should realize that if you applied the same standard to those intermediary layers WITHIN the 5 main layers that you are so quick to point out regarding the ozone layer.

 

[Huram Abi]

Energy is mass, Energy equals mass multiplied by a constant. If light had no mass it would have no problem escaping the gravitational potential well of a black hole, it would not deviate from it's path when travelling close to large celestial objects. However it does !

Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed, it is a measure of the rate at which work is done, and is the first differential of Energy with respect to Time. Not a measure of energy over the time it is operating, which is actually the action of a system, and is the integral of energy over time.
And since Energy is defined as the ability to move, Energy could not exist without space and time.

Spot on.

 

[cupid dave]

Energy is mass, Energy equals mass multiplied by a constant. If light had no mass it would have no problem escaping the gravitational potential well of a black hole, it would not deviate from it's path when travelling close to large celestial objects. However it does !

Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed, it is a measure of the rate at which work is done, and is the first differential of Energy with respect to Time. Not a measure of energy over the time it is operating, which is actually the action of a system, and is the integral of energy over time.
And since Energy is defined as the ability to move, Energy could not exist without space and time.

1) Yes, Power is the measure of energy once time starts clicking off the seconds.
So, clearly, energy is in a time-less state before it is used to do work.


2) Photons are weightless particles with no mass.


NOTE:
Black Holes and the Speed of Light

Black holes almost certainly exist, and one of their basic properties is that they trap light. However, it is also true that nothing exceeds the speed of light. In fact, the theoretical prediction of black holes is due to the General Theory of Relativity, which is built on the principle that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant.
The analogy of a cannonball falling back to Earth with the trapping of light in a black hole is only a crude and suggestive one that is not correct at a fundamental level (for one thing, the cannonball has mass, but light does not; it turns out that this difference is critical, because massless particles MUST travel at light velocity, but massive particles CANNOT travel at light velocity).

To understand fully why a black hole can trap light but the light still always travels at constant velocity requires an understanding of the General Theory of Relativity...., but the essential point is that the black hole curves spacetime back on itself, so that all paths in the interior of the black hole lead back to the singularity at the center, no matter which direction you go (an analogy in two dimensions is that no matter which direction you go on the surface of the Earth in a "straight line" (what mathematicians call a "geodesic" or a "great circle"), you never escape the Earth but instead return to same point.

Imagine extending that analogy to the 4 dimensions of spacetime and you have a rough explanation for why light travels at light speed, but cannot escape the interior of a black hole.
　
　Black Holes





3) The reason photons are trapped by Black holes is not because they have mass, but because photons have momentum depending on their wave length or the frequency.

E = mC^2 is valid ONLY at zero velocity.

You have to use this one which considers the momentum of the photon, (cp)2:

E2 = (cp)2 + (mc2)2

 

[Huram Abi]

Ahem... from the link you gave, which says nothing to the effect of what you posted....

"The stronger the gravitational field, the more energy the photons lose..."


So, yes, Cupid, photons are affected by gravity.

Regarding a blackhole, a photon is slowed down even just passing by a black-hole and gravitons must escape a black hole, so this "all roads must lead back to the black-hole" doesn't explain how gravitons, which are massless, are an exception, while photons are not..

The obvious explanation is that the photon has mass.

 

[DanielGillan]

Energy is not in a timeless state before it does work, time is a requirement in the definition of Energy. Photons are particles with no mass, is a presumption and unproven.

Cupid, if you are going to write about Energy in the physical sense, please gain a little understanding about it.

Your 1) Yes, Power is the measure of energy once time starts clicking off the seconds.
So, clearly, energy is in a time-less state before it is used to do work.

Statement demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of the terms. Power is the first differential of Energy with respect to time. Energy is the integral of force over distance. Force is mass multiplied by acceleration. acceleration is the second differential of distance with respect to time. You CANNOT have Energy without time, or space.

 

[cupid dave]

Ahem... from the link you gave, which says nothing to the effect of what you posted....

"The stronger the gravitational field, the more energy the photons lose..."


So, yes, Cupid, photons are affected by gravity.

Regarding a blackhole, a photon is slowed down even just passing by a black-hole and gravitons must escape a black hole, so this "all roads must lead back to the black-hole" doesn't explain how gravitons, which are massless, are an exception, while photons are not..

The obvious explanation is that the photon has mass.

LOL

"Photons have no mass, but that does not mean they cannot affect GPS satellite orbits."

GPS satellites operate in a harsh, radiation-filled environment 20,000 kilometers above the surface of the Earth. Solar radiation pressure - the force due to the impact of solar photons and the related effects of anisotropic thermal re-radiation and albedo are all tiny forces and yet they have a strong perturbing effect on the GPS satellite orbits.
Modeling Photon Pressure: The Key To High-Precision GPS Satellite Orbits | GPS World

 

[cupid dave]

Photons are particles with no mass, is a presumption and unproven.

The theory that Photons must be massless underpins Relativity itself.
An infinite amount of Energy would otherwise be required since photons travel at C.


Mass of the Photon




　

The Question​

(Submitted July 31, 1996)
Do photons have mass?
(Because the equations E=mc2, and E=hf, imply that m=hf/c2 .
Is it so?)
The Answer
No, photons do not have mass, but they do have momentum.


The proper, general equation to use is E2 = m2c4 + p2c2 So in the case of a photon, m=0 so E = pc or p = E/c. On the other hand, for a particle with mass m at rest (i.e., p = 0), you get back the famous E = mc2.

 

[Huram Abi]

Article in this century on massive photons:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1109/1109.0140v1.pdf

 

[DanielGillan]

The theory of relativity is just that, a theory. Until theories are proven, they remain theoretical. Since we cannot prove (yet) that photons have no rest mass, the best we can do is assign an upper limit to the mass.

 

[Huram Abi]

The theory of relativity is just that, a theory. Until theories are proven, they remain theoretical. Since we cannot prove (yet) that photons have no rest mass, the best we can do is assign an upper limit to the mass.

Determining the rest mass is useless anyway, since it is never applicable.

We cannot attribute a rest mass to photons because it isimply isn't a character that photons can possess.

It's like trying to determine what speed a human could fly at if they had wings. Interesting? possibly. Useful? Doubtful.

But regarding photons in their natural state, it is quite useful to to know their massive upper limit.