• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Genesis, Adam and What the Scriptures Teach

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Speaking of not understanding the clear meaning right in front of you, how do you manage to answer a point about what you said in your post, with yes Paul did?

So still no attempt to answer how Christ is literally the second man.

That would be great if you actually answered the question in the first place. Instead you avoided the problem and now refuse to go back and answer it

Just for the sake of completeness I'll just add you are simply asking the question again and again. This is typical of evolutionist rhetoric, no matter what the answer, just ask the question again. What this amounts to is three logical fallacies used in combination. The inevitable ad hominem, the equivocation of type and figure and finally begging the question of proof on your hands and knees.

A detailed exposition of the requisite texts, that you ignored, yielded yet more circular arguments, typology is figurative language therefore it's not literal. Then you just make scathing personal remarks while pushing the burden of proof off on creationists, never making a substantiated positive statement.

It's actually kind of fascinating, the only thing I can figure is you simply don't believe it so there must be something wrong with those who do. The Church has always taught that Adam and Eve are our first parents, Paul makes it clear that we are sinners because in Adam all were made sinners. This is not subject to idle rationalizations and to be honest, I think you realized that long ago.

Have a nice day,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just for the sake of completeness I'll just add you are simply asking the question again and again. This is typical of evolutionist rhetoric, no matter what the answer, just ask the question again. What this amounts to is three logical fallacies used in combination. The inevitable ad hominem, the equivocation of type and figure and finally begging the question of proof on your hands and knees.
Yes indeed, I have been asking the same question again and again, well, same questions, there were a few of them. However what sets this apart from rhetoric was that I did not keep asking the same question 'no matter what the answer'. I kept asking the same question because you refused to answer, you just ducked and dodged and changed the subject. If you have given a good answer to my question I would have been stupid to keep asking it, if you had given an answer that addressed the question but I disagreed with, I could have discussed your answer and we would have made some progress in the discussion. Instead I kept asking the questions because you would not and presumably could not answer them.

A detailed exposition of the requisite texts, that you ignored,
What detailed exposition of the texts? Your tupos list? I addressed that and you could not answer me and refused to look at the links I gave you to the discussion. Or is there some other detailed exposition you are supposed to have made? This is the second time in two posts you have referred to an explanation I am supposed to have ignored. I asked you to point it out to me then too.

yielded yet more circular arguments, typology is figurative language therefore it's not literal.
Is that what I said? Pity you could not show how the typological statements were literal when we were trying to discuss them, rather than claiming some supposed circular argument afterwards.

Then you just make scathing personal remarks while pushing the burden of proof off on creationists, never making a substantiated positive statement.
You made the claim the New Testament is crystal clear that Adam was the first man, shouldn't you be the one with the burden of proof?

It's actually kind of fascinating, the only thing I can figure is you simply don't believe it so there must be something wrong with those who do.
If that helps you sleep at night go ahead and believe it. It is not true though. You see I am simply not satisfied with proof texts like 'the first man Adam' that ignores what Paul was saying and how he was saying it. I used to be a literalist and had no time for typology allegory and metaphor. It was the bible that taught me to love the metaphors and allegory it was filled with and I have no interest in returning to empty literalism, especially when those insisting on literalism keep making claims they cannot back up from scripture.

The Church has always taught that Adam and Eve are our first parents, Paul makes it clear that we are sinners because in Adam all were made sinners. This is not subject to idle rationalizations and to be honest, I think you realized that long ago.
Have a nice day,
Mark
The church got things wrong in the past too, remember geocentrism, papal infallibility, transubstantiation? Appeals to tradition are not very impressive to someone who left the tradition of the Catholic Church because I did not think the traditions stood up to what I read in scripture. Even worse when you appeal to tradition but cannot back your claim up from scripture. Perhaps if we had been able to discuss typology we could also have looked at Romans 5 where Paul describe Adam as a tupos of Christ Rom 5: 14 Adam was a figure of the one who was to come. But there is little point in discussing it here.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Just one question Assyrian before I get off this merry go round. What exactly do you believe. I know what you don't believe, you elaborate at length and do very little else. Just curious really, what exactly is worthy of being considered 'literal' or 'historical' because sometimes I really have to wonder.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The deity of Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross and rose again for our sins. The inspiration of scripture. That everything that exists was created by God through Christ. It is a long list. I want to search out the scriptures and try to understand what the really say, what the writers were talking about and what God was and is speaking through them. This has to be more than out of context proof texts bolstering human tradition. That said, I am sure there is an awful lot more we agree on than disagree. It is just that the context of a discussion forum lends itself more to the areas of disagreement. But that is not such a bad thing, you know, iron sharpens iron. The bigger issue is the grace and love we show to those we disagree with. I know I have a long way to go there.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
The deity of Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross and rose again for our sins. The inspiration of scripture. That everything that exists was created by God through Christ. It is a long list. I want to search out the scriptures and try to understand what the really say, what the writers were talking about and what God was and is speaking through them. This has to be more than out of context proof texts bolstering human tradition. That said, I am sure there is an awful lot more we agree on than disagree. It is just that the context of a discussion forum lends itself more to the areas of disagreement. But that is not such a bad thing, you know, iron sharpens iron. The bigger issue is the grace and love we show to those we disagree with. I know I have a long way to go there.

Gosh Assyrian, saying we should show grace to other Christians? Why that's poisonous and fallacious reasoning if I ever saw it. How dare you.

Dear Mr. Kennedy; thank you for all that. Your answers are very good. I have been reading the posts by 'Papias', 'Dark Lite', 'Assyrian', and 'Mallon' and their 'reasoning' has certainly poisoned the waters of this website that's for sure.

Thank you for standing up to them.

I'm curious to see what you might think of the arguments presented here http://www.christianforums.com/t7305187/ for and against a more figurative interpretation of who Adam is. I tend to go back to this link because the discussion was short, self-contained, and mostly centered around the main points in this issue.

Would you mind going over and then tell us what you think of mark's arguments?
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gosh Assyrian, saying we should show grace to other Christians? Why that's poisonous and fallacious reasoning if I ever saw it. How dare you.
I'm sorry shernren I forgot. I'm all right now.
Burn the heretics!
Death to the bigots!!

Destroy all Monsters!!!
Phew. That's better.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm curious to see what you might think of the arguments presented here http://www.christianforums.com/t7305187/ for and against a more figurative interpretation of who Adam is. I tend to go back to this link because the discussion was short, self-contained, and mostly centered around the main points in this issue.

Would you mind going over and then tell us what you think of mark's arguments?

I can't wait to see how the one with Papias turns out. I mean, if he openly admits the dogma of the RCC you two are anathema for pushing Adam off as figurative. I like the title, 'Does the Roman Catholic Church condemn theistic evolution?'. The obvious answer is not unless you reject a literal Adam, original sin and the historicity of Scripture.

It should be a hoot.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
I can't wait to see how the one with Papias turns out. I mean, if he openly admits the dogma of the RCC you two are anathema for pushing Adam off as figurative. I like the title, 'Does the Roman Catholic Church condemn theistic evolution?'. The obvious answer is not unless you reject a literal Adam, original sin and the historicity of Scripture.

It should be a hoot.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
Meh. Trent already bumped all three of us off for being heliocentric. ;)
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Meh. Trent already bumped all three of us off for being heliocentric. ;)

I assume your joking but I'm wondering. Has the RCC ever made a canonical pronouncement regarding astronomical movements?
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
I assume your joking but I'm wondering. Has the RCC ever made a canonical pronouncement regarding astronomical movements?
This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting [from Galileo's printing of On The Sunspots], which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:

The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.

The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.

... Invoking, therefore, the most holy name of our Lord Jesus Christ and of His most glorious Mother, ever Virgin Mary, but this our final sentence, which sitting in judgment, with the counsel and advice of the Reverend Masters of sacred theology and Doctors of both Laws, our assessors, we deliver in these writings, in the cause and causes at present before us between the Magnificent Carlo Sinceri, Doctor of both Laws, Proctor Fiscal of this Holy Office, of the one part, and your Galileo Galilei, the defendant, here present, examined, tried, and confessed as shown above, of the other part—


We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.


Papal Condemnation (Sentence) of Galileo in 1633 - The original condemnation of Galileo.

Heliocentrism was considered heresy, and its reason for being heretical traces directly back to the Council of Trent:

In 1564, the Council of Trent (Session IV, April 8) infallibly declared that that no one could “in matters of faith and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine...interpret the sacred Scriptures…even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”

This infallible declaration was restated by the First Vatican Council: “In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret holy scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the fathers” (On Revelation, April 24, 1870, chapter 2, no. 9).

We know that this caused Galileo's condemnation because Cardinal Bellarmine, in writing to Father Foscarini (not to Galileo himself, we note, which reduces the importance of personal politics) on the validity of heliocentrism on April 12th 1615, mentions the Council of Trent:

“... the Council (of Trent) prohibits expounding the Scriptures contrary to the common agreement of the holy Fathers. And if Your Reverence would read not only the Fathers but also the commentaries of modern writers on Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Josue, you would find that all agree in explaining (ad litteram) that the sun is in the heavens and moves swiftly around the earth, and that the earth is far from the heavens and stands immobile in the center of the universe. Now consider whether the Church could encourage giving to Scripture a sense contrary to the holy Fathers and all the Latin and Greek commentators.”

Furthermore, the text of the address of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1992, after further researching the case of Galileo, makes it clear that biblical hermeneutics were at the heart of his condemnation:

... the geocentric representation of the world was commonly admitted in the culture of the time as fully agreeing with the teaching of the Bible of which certain expressions, taken literally seemed to affirm geocentrism. The problem posed by theologians of that age was, therefore, that of the compatibility between heliocentrism and Scripture. Thus the new science, with its methods and the freedom of research which they implied, obliged theologians to examine their own criteria of scriptural interpretation. Most of them did not know how to do so.

Faith can never contradict reason. On Galileo.

Indeed, there has been no formal rehabilitation of Galileo, as far as I am aware, other than in this document. The only reversal of the decrees of the 1600s was for the books of Copernicus and Galileo to be silently dropped from the Index - no formal recantations of the theology that led to the ban.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟22,833.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
What the Scriptures actually teach regarding Adam and other historical aspects of Genesis is vital to our understanding of Origins Theology.
Then why don't you look at all scriptures? You focus on Paul and Adam. However, Genesis 1 is clear that God created men and women, both plural in the Hebrew, at the same time. By Genesis 1, there never was a single man.

Darwinism is one long argument against special creation, all evolutionists who are honest emphasis this point.
It was more than that. Darwin did call Origins "one long argument", but that doesn't mean it was an argument against Special Creation.

It's based on naturalistic assumptions as opposed to what Darwin called 'miraculous interposition'.
It's based on secondary causes. At the time, Darwin based evolution firmly within natural theology. Here again is where you think "naturalistic assumptions" rule out God. Darwin and Christians don't think that way.

The Scriptures are crystal clear, in Adam all sinned and there is no orthodox Christian doctrine to the contrary.

Yes, there is. Scripture is very clear in several places that you can't punish children for the sins of the fathers: Deut. 24:16, 2Chron.25:4, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek. 18:20

Orthodox Christian doctrine is that Jesus died for our sins. And we sin because we sin, not because Adam did.

Through one man sin entered the world and through one man righteousness was revealed (Rom 5:12) or as shernen said it, Adam’s dragging everyone down into sin.
But that isn't what Genesis 3 says. Genesis 3 lays out very clearly the punishments and consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Sin entering the world is not among them.

5) Through one man sin entered the world and death through sin.
That isn't what Genesis 2-3 says. So if you are going by scripture and Paul is supposedly referring back to Genesis 2-3, then the conclusion is that Paul misinterpreted those chapters.

The Scriptures offer an explanation for man's fallen nature, how we inherited it exactly is not important but when Adam and Eve sinned we did not fast.
Evolution offers a better explanation for man's fallen nature. The evidence God left us in His Creation tells us why we really have a tendency to sin. Genesis 2-3 is good allegory, but it really doesn't explain why we all sin.

Jesus called the marriage of Adam and Eve 'the beginning'.
Adam and Eve were never married. They just lived together. Jesus is referring in Mark 10 and Matthew 19 to Genesis 1, not Genesis 2. He is referring to God creating humans men and women "in the beginning". Which God does create humans male and female "from the beginning" by evolution.

Because the King James Bible translates tupos (G5179 τύπος) as 'figure' some folks thinks it means that Adam is a figure of speech.
Adam is allegory because "adam" = dirt. We have a story of Dirt and Hearth in Genesis 2-3.

The profound theological principles inextricably linked to the sin of Adam and the judgment of the Flood makes historicity of Genesis essential to Christian theism.
Do you really want to do that? You are setting up Christianity to be unfairly falsified if you do this.

Dismissing them as figurative does a grave injustice to the authority of Scripture
And here is what creationists really care about: "the authority of Scripture". Aren't we supposed to care about God? Who do you worship, Mark? God or Scripture? In concentrating on the authority of scripture, aren't you forgetting the equal or greater authority of Creation?
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Then why don't you look at all scriptures? You focus on Paul and Adam. However, Genesis 1 is clear that God created men and women, both plural in the Hebrew, at the same time. By Genesis 1, there never was a single man.

Yes there was and his name was Adam, this could not be any clearer and unlike you I have studied this out. While the literary feature you are shamelessly misrepresenting, can mean a race or kind itself, a collective noun can mean an individual. Obviously in this context what is in mind here is an individual and his name was Adam. That's how Moses wrote it, Paul understood it and Christians have taught it for 2,000 years except when they want to accommodate Darwinism.

26. אדם 'ādām, “man, mankind;” “be red.” A collective noun, having no plural number, and therefore denoting either an individual of the kind, or the kind or race itself.(Albert Barnes Commentary)​


It was more than that. Darwin did call Origins "one long argument", but that doesn't mean it was an argument against Special Creation.

Darwin defines the argument as against 'special creation':

In these works he (Lamarck) upholds the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species. He first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (Preface, On the Origin of Species)

Although much remains obscure, and will long remain obscure, I can entertain no doubt, after the most deliberate study and dispassionate judgement of which I am capable, that the view which most naturalists entertain, and which I formerly entertained — namely, that each species has been independently created — is erroneous. (Introduction, On the Origin of Species)​

That's where you get the expression, 'one long argument' because that's all Darwinism is. It's one long argument against God as Creator.


It's based on secondary causes. At the time, Darwin based evolution firmly within natural theology. Here again is where you think "naturalistic assumptions" rule out God. Darwin and Christians don't think that way.

No he didn't, Darwin read Paley in college and simply accepted it the way Behe accepted Darwinism. Later in life Darwin began to question that then later rejected natural theology and instead refereed to 'natural law' as opposed to 'miraculous interposition' as he called it.

More importantly, you have neither the knowledge nor the credulity to speak for Darwin or Christianity at large since you are clearly misrepresenting both ways of thinking.


Yes, there is. Scripture is very clear in several places that you can't punish children for the sins of the fathers: Deut. 24:16, 2Chron.25:4, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek. 18:20

I'm really not going to chase this paradox round the mulberry bush with you. The Scriptures make it clear that we are all sinners because of our first parents and this is explicit in both the Old and New Testaments.

Orthodox Christian doctrine is that Jesus died for our sins. And we sin because we sin, not because Adam did.

We sin because we sin....that explains everything...how did I miss it for so long?

It's embarrassing for me to dignify your posts with a response since you haven't made a single coherent point yet. I don't like theistic evolution and have very serious issues with it but don't believe for one minute I think you represent it. I just want that to be clear before we really start getting into this.

But that isn't what Genesis 3 says. Genesis 3 lays out very clearly the punishments and consequences of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Sin entering the world is not among them.

It doesn't say that Satan will go to hell either, that doesn't mean he is not. Your switching tangents so fast it's hard to track what kind of a point you were originally trying to make.

That isn't what Genesis 2-3 says. So if you are going by scripture and Paul is supposedly referring back to Genesis 2-3, then the conclusion is that Paul misinterpreted those chapters.

That is what it says and I trust Paul's exposition of Genesis far more then I do yours. In fact, I think you are simply disagreeing with both and believe neither.

Evolution offers a better explanation for man's fallen nature. The evidence God left us in His Creation tells us why we really have a tendency to sin. Genesis 2-3 is good allegory, but it really doesn't explain why we all sin.

Paul in Romans 1 is not talking about a 'tendency to sin', he is saying, 'all have sinned'. In Romans 5 he tells us why.


Adam and Eve were never married. They just lived together. Jesus is referring in Mark 10 and Matthew 19 to Genesis 1, not Genesis 2. He is referring to God creating humans men and women "in the beginning". Which God does create humans male and female "from the beginning" by evolution.

Adam and Ever were never married? There goes your last benefit of a doubt :wave: Your absurdity is rivaled only by your audacity.


Adam is allegory because "adam" = dirt. We have a story of Dirt and Hearth in Genesis 2-3.

No, it's a proper name.


Do you really want to do that? You are setting up Christianity to be unfairly falsified if you do this.

Christianity stood on the testimony of Christ and the Apostles, in the power of the Holy Spirit, long before me and will survive me no matter what I 'set it up for'. You being silly.


And here is what creationists really care about: "the authority of Scripture". Aren't we supposed to care about God? Who do you worship, Mark? God or Scripture? In concentrating on the authority of scripture, aren't you forgetting the equal or greater authority of Creation?

I see no contradiction between the creation and the Creator. I worship the risen Savior who loved me and gave himself for me. The Incarnate Word, King of Kings and Lord of Lords that gives light to everyone who comes into the world (John 1:1-12), through whom, by whom and for whom the heavens and the earth was made.

What is infinitely more important is that creation never has equal or greater authority then the Creator. Were it not so absurd it would be blasphemous. You will not find that kind of a statement in any Christian creed or doctrine, certainly not the one that is recognized as valid on these boards.

Perhaps you would like to revise your statement.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Here's a revealing comparison: Copernicus and Galileo's works were on the Index of Forbidden Books for two centuries; Darwin's Origin of Species never so much as touched it. The Vatican is in full agreement with evolution:

Vatican says Evolution does not prove the non-existence of God -Times Online

First of all the condemnation of Galileo was not canonical, the issue seems to have been who had the authority to interpret Scripture. The Scriptures have never been explicit with regards to the movements of the heavens and the reflections of the early church fathers and the RCC reflected long held views, so what? The lineage of man is another matter entirely and the Vatican is neither in full agreement with nor is it supportive of evolution. Now that is depending on how you define the term because I know evolutionists like to use multiple meanings.

At some point you have to define this central term which is something evolutionists have an aversion from doing.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Except where Paul says Adam was a figure of Christ ;)
Rom 5:14 Adam was a figure of the one who was to come.

Which is better translated type, typology being something you know about, and yet, mislead people into thinking it indicates figurative language. Do you have qualms about this or is it ok for TEs to purposely misrepresent what the Scriptures teach?
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which is better translated type, typology being something you know about, and yet, mislead people into thinking it indicates figurative language.
Do you think bible translators were misleading people when they translated Roman 5:14 as 'figure'? I prefer 'figure' to 'type' because people confuse Paul's typology with the rules of typology which the church came up centuries later. The translation 'figure' avoids this anachronism.

The only one misled here is you, you have somehow convinced yourself that typological interpretation isn't figurative, even though you cannot explain how Paul was speaking literally when he called Christ 'the second man', when he said that Jesus was a rock that wandered around in Sinai along with the Israelites, or how John the Baptist meant Jesus was a literal sheep when he called him 'the lamb of God'. These typological interpretations in the NT take things from the OT and use them figuratively, as metaphorical pictures of Christ and the New Covenant. The Passover lamb and the temple sacrifices are figurative pictures of Christ and the cross. They are not literal, they cannot be literal because Jesus wasn't a sheep.

Do you have qualms about this or is it ok for TEs to purposely misrepresent what the Scriptures teach?
Go on, ask me is I am still beating my wife while you are at it ^_^
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you think bible translators were misleading people when they translated Roman 5:14 as 'figure'?

No it's really you who is misleading people, the translators are crystal clear when you understand the proper way the term is being used instead of twisting them to mean something else. Here are various translations:

New International Version (©1984)
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.

King James Bible
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

I know your not a King James only type, you like that translation because it agrees with what you are saying superficially. Like the scientific evidences it doesn't stand up under close scrutiny and yet evolutionists persist without so much as a blush.

I prefer 'figure' to 'type' because people confuse Paul's typology with the rules of typology which the church came up centuries later. The translation 'figure' avoids this anachronism.

No, what happened is the word was being used differently in 1611. They would have understood that it was a figure rather then figurative language. Of course no one would have been going around pretending Paul was being figurative so there was no problem.

The only one misled here is you, you have somehow convinced yourself that typological interpretation isn't figurative, even though you cannot explain how Paul was speaking literally when he called Christ 'the second man', when he said that Jesus was a rock that wandered around in Sinai along with the Israelites, or how John the Baptist meant Jesus was a literal sheep when he called him 'the lamb of God'. These typological interpretations in the NT take things from the OT and use them figuratively, as metaphorical pictures of Christ and the New Covenant. The Passover lamb and the temple sacrifices are figurative pictures of Christ and the cross. They are not literal, they cannot be literal because Jesus wasn't a sheep.

Here Paul is using the exact same word in the exact same way:

Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, 5in spirit, in faith, in purity (I Tim 4:12)​

So where is the figurative language here? The truth is that you are being absurd but why don't you try to rationalize this one away as well.

Go on, ask me is I am still beating my wife while you are at it ^_^

I know you think I'm being facetious but I'm actually quite serious, neither the language or the context in Genesis or Romans supports your interpretation, falsely so called.

I think you are being used, that's really what I think. Darwinians fear believers because they are vastly outnumbered and the natural reason of most people concludes either an intelligent designer or a Creator. Believe anything you like about fossils and old dirt, it makes no difference to me. Just don't use those snake oil sales tactics to sell me an interpretation of the Scriptures that I know is false. It's a waste of time and it makes you look foolish.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
First of all the condemnation of Galileo was not canonical, the issue seems to have been who had the authority to interpret Scripture.

Sure, I mean, the Inquisition only claimed the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and of His most glorious Mother, ever Virgin Mary. Can anybody punch any higher than that?

The Scriptures have never been explicit with regards to the movements of the heavens and the reflections of the early church fathers and the RCC reflected long held views, so what?

The Council of Trent says anyone who contradicts the Early Church Fathers is anathema. If you agree that the Early Church Fathers were all geocentrists, and you contradict them, you are anathema.

Some magisterium the RCC is, if you would ignore it when you disagree with it and anathematize your opponents when you don't.
 
Upvote 0