Genesis 1:5 THE FIRST DAY (KJV)

[David Lamb]

You appear to be supporting Platte in rejecting ANE cosmology in the text, are you not?

I don't know - I have never encountered the term "ANE cosmology".

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't know - I have never encountered the term "ANE cosmology".

Ok. Well my apologies for dragging you into the crossfire then.

Here is a nice video (though it is long) that will explain the nature of the debates that we all keep getting hemmed up in.

This video also gives detailed coverage of ANE cosmology in the Bible as well. It also touches on Egyptian context backgrounding Genesis.

 

[Platte]

I never said that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat. But it does reference a flat earth.

Just as the Bible doesn't teach that there is a gateway to the underworld at the bottom of the ocean (Jonah 2) that we might go down to Genesis 37:35.

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35

Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9

Do you think there is an underworld somewhere beneath our feet?

Or how about you @David Lamb, do you think that if we took a shovel and dug down deep enough, that eventually we would just fall into an underworld?

The Bible does not reference a flat earth

 

[Job 33:6]

The Bible does nto reference a flat earth

Are you having trouble answering the question about sheol?

Just as the Bible doesn't teach that there is a gateway to the underworld at the bottom of the ocean (Jonah 2) that we might go down to Genesis 37:35.

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35

Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9

Do you think there is an underworld somewhere beneath our feet?

You seem to keep dodging and twisting the conversation rather than plainly responding.

Ive already said many times that the Bible doesn't teach a flat earth, rather it merely references it.

Your responses aren't engaging the text.

 

[David Lamb]

Ok. Well my apologies for dragging you into the crossfire then.

Here is a nice video (though it is long) that will explain the nature of the debates that we all keep getting hemmed up in.

This video also gives detailed coverage of ANE cosmology in the Bible as well. It also touches on Egyptian context backgrounding Genesis.

Ah! "ANE" = "Ancient Near East". Thanks.

 

[Job 33:6]

All I hear time and time again is "it's history, it's real, historical details are true, yadda yadda.

Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

But then when we start talking about digging trenches down to the underworld, then all of a sudden it changes to...

"Oh, well that's just poetry" oh "oh that's a metaphor" and "well, that's not literally true".

Ok, well, that's how it is with Genesis. It's the same thing. Same thing with ANE cosmology in the Bible.

It is there. It is plainly in the text. But we would be incorrect to then try to take a shovel and dug down into the earth to reach an underworld.

Same with earth resting on pillars over an ocean. There are many passages about this. The earth is not actually flat on pillars. But this is a common concept in the old testament.

“He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the garbage heap To seat them with nobles, And He gives them a seat of honor as an inheritance; For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.
1 Samuel 2:8 NASB

He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not move forever and ever.
Psalms 104:5 NASB

Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NASB

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

"Oh, well, I guess the earth resting on pillars must be about being an upright person or something, it's just figurative and isn't actually about earth resting on pillars, even though that's what it says".

Oh please.

And the Bible isn't trying to teach us some sort of scientific description of the structure of the Earth or cosmos. Rather, it's just cultural reference to how ancient Israelites viewed the structure of creation. It's not what the Bible is based on, but it is in the Bible quite clearly.

The Bible is not based on the idea that there's an underworld beneath our feet, but it's plainly in the text for anyone who reads it. And simply calling this "history and I believe it and it's real and that's that" and acting like there's nothing more going on, really just misses the point.

 

[Job 33:6]

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

"Oh, well, it doesn't actually mean that the earth is above the waters. What it means is that, uh, it's actually talking about groundwater and water inside the earth, yea...that's it".

Um, no. It's ANE cosmology.

 

[Job 33:6]

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

"Oh, well, it doesn't actually mean that the earth is above the waters. What it means is that, uh, it's actually talking about groundwater and water inside the earth, yea...that's it".

Um, no. It's ANE cosmology.

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 26:10

"Oh um, it's actually talking about a sphere. Because you know, if the ancient Israelites were in a rocketship in space, looking down, that's what they would have seen, a circle"

Um, no. Again, it's ANE cosmology. The circle on the face of the waters.

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

Jonah 2:2-3, 5-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

"The bars closed around him? Ropes and sea weed and waves? Oh well, that's just figurative poetry, Jonah didn't actually sink down into an underworld". Samuel is just speaking poetically. But it's history so..."

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14


"Oh well you know, um, that's actually talking about Jesus walking on earths magnetic field out in space somewhere".

--------
The responses that people give, in an effort to deny ANE cosmology in the text, is just embarrassing.

The Bible says what it says. The authors made cultural references to the way they saw the world. And that's just how it is in the Bible. And in Genesis. And part of that cosmological perspective is, as the text plainly describes, a flat earth.

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

"Oh well, that's just a dream, so it's ok if the earth is flat in a dream, that's different".

Yea ok...

And it's not just "poetry". It's their ancient perspective.

 

[Platte]

The Bible is not based on the idea that there's an underworld beneath our feet,

Its not?

 

[Job 33:6]

Its not?

Do you think there's something beneath your feet? And underworld down there that you could dig down to?

You think there are rephaim down there, and that you could just walk around down there and talk to them?

Get a backhoe from Lowe's or home Depot and dig a gateway open and just take a stroll down there?

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

 

[Platte]

Do you think there's something beneath your feet? And underworld down there that you could dig down to?

You think there are rephaim down there, and that you could just walk around down there and talk to them?

Get a backhoe from Lowe's or home Depot and dig a gateway open and just take a stroll down there?

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Do you know what Sheol below means?

 

[Job 33:6]

Do you know what Sheol below means?

It's talking about sheol, the underworld, below.

Do you think that sheol is beneath you that you might "go down" to it?

Jonah 2:2-3, 5-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

Psalm 30:3 ESV
[3] O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Isaiah 14:15 ESV
[15] But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

 

[Job 33:6]

Numbers 16:30-33 ESV
[30] But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” [31] And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. [32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Isaiah 14:9 ESV
[9] Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.

 

[Platte]

It's talking about sheol, the underworld, below.

Do you think that sheol is beneath you that you might "go down" to it?

Jonah 2:2-3, 5-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

Psalm 30:3 ESV
[3] O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Isaiah 14:15 ESV
[15] But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

I think its pretty understood that hell is below us

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isiaiah 14:9 KJV

 

[Job 33:6]

I think its pretty understood that hell is below us

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isiaiah 14:9 KJV

Sheol isn't hell, first off. Even good people go to sheol in the old testament.

But the question is, where, if it is below us, do you think it is? You think you can dig down to it?

Numbers 16:30-33 ESV
[30] But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” [31] And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. [32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

I mean, do you think that there is actually a place, that if the earth opened up, you might fall down into it? And there are spirits down there?

Because that is what the Bible plainly says.

And this is a watery place, as well.

The departed spirits are made to tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 NASB

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

Jonah 2:2-3, 5-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NASB

Psalm 30:3 ESV
[3] O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

 

[Platte]

Sheol isn't hell, first off. Even good people go to sheol in the old testament.

But the question is, where, if it is below us, do you think it is? You think you can dig down to it?

Numbers 16:30-33 ESV
[30] But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” [31] And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. [32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

I mean, do you think that there is actually a place, that if the earth opened up, you might fall down into it? And there are spirits down there?

Because that is what the Bible plainly says.

And this is a watery place, as well.

The departed spirits are made to tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 NASB

For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

Jonah 2:2-3, 5-6 ESV
[2] saying, “I called out to the Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. [3] For you cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me; all your waves and your billows passed over me.
[5] The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head [6] at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NASB

Psalm 30:3 ESV
[3] O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol; you restored me to life from among those who go down to the pit.

Context: Sheol is hell

Yes hell is below us - where do you think hell is?

 

[Job 33:6]

Context: Sheol is hell

Yes hell is below us - where do you think hell is?

Context, no? Good people go to sheol in the old testament. Not sure why you've repeated your error.

Sheol is not hell. Would you like to try again?

 

[Job 33:6]

Context: Sheol is hell

Yes hell is below us - where do you think hell is?

Psalm 49:14 ESV

[14] Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

Genesis 37:35

Jacob goes to sheol. A patriarch of the faith, a righteous man.

Job 14:13

Job goes to sheol. Job is described as blameless and upright.

Hezekiah, in Isaiah 38:10, goes to sheol. King Hezekiah was a righteous man.

The psalmist in Psalm 88.

Samuel went to sheol (and came back up at king sauls request).

Hosea 13:14 speaks of people, the righteous, rescued or brought out of sheol.

Etc.

It's not hell. It's described as a watery underworld.

 

[Job 33:6]

Psalm 49:14 ESV

[14] Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

Genesis 37:35

Jacob goes to sheol. A patriarch of the faith, a righteous man.

Job 14:13

Job goes to sheol. Job is described as blameless and upright.

Hezekiah, in Isaiah 38:10, goes to sheol. King Hezekiah was a righteous man.

The psalmist in Psalm 88.

Samuel went to sheol (and came back up at king sauls request).

Hosea 13:14 speaks of people, the righteous, rescued or brought out of sheol.

Etc.

It's not hell. It's described as a watery underworld.

With the above said, again, do you think that if the underworld is below us, that we could just get a backhoe and dig down to it?

You said "yes". But I don't understand what you mean.

Numbers 16:30-33 ESV
[30] But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” [31] And as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart. [32] And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. [33] So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Following along with the text, you think that if you go out and rent a backhoe, you could dig a pit down to a watery underworld where spirits are awaiting you? @Platte

 

[Platte]

Context, no? Good people go to sheol in the old testament. Not sure why you've repeated your error.

Sheol is not hell. Would you like to try again?

Hmmmm. I am beginning to understand this a little better. (cart before the horse, Platte)

Hell is the broader term - Sheol is hell. Yes Sheol is below us. If the ground opened up and you fell into it alive - and you perished....you would go down to Sheol...hell. You do not believe that?