General anesthesia and consciousness

[stevevw]

That's not what I mean by 'selective memories'... I'm talking about your selective memories, and the tendency of proponents of NDE's to focus only on those cases that fit their narrative. So you reach the erroneous conclusion that a disproportionate number of NDE's involve meeting deceased loved ones rather than living ones, but studies show that this simply isn't true. The fact is that a very, very, very small proportion of people who suffer cardiac arrest are ever going to experience talking to dead loved ones. It just doesn't happen as often as you seem to think it does. It's just that what does happen is that people tend to talk about them more, hence they seem prevalent, when they're actually not.

My selective memory. All I am doing is looking at the facts gained from the studies. I just linked several independent articles that all say NDE'ers meet more deceased relatives than those still alive. Its not being selective as they are looking at all cases of NDE which includes those that do not meet deceased relatives. There are no other cases to select from for me to be selective.

You say a very small number of people who have cardiac arrests meet deceased loved ones. I am not sure what you mean. Not everyone who has a cardiac arrest has a NDE and not every NDE is from a cardiac arrest. The fact is of those that meet the criteria for NDE most meet deceased loved ones.

To even be included cases must meet the criteria for NDE which means their cortex has flat lined (where consciousness resides), have fixed and dilated pupils and no gag reflex.

So it doesn't really matter whether its meeting living or deceased loved ones during a NDE as this would seem impossible under such circumstances as a brain with no activity in the conscious regions should not have any conscious thoughts full stop.

Dr Parnia explains, “death is not a specific moment. It is a process that begins when the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working and the brain ceases functioning – a medical condition termed cardiac arrest, which from a biological viewpoint is synonymous with clinical death.

One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest. Dr Parnia concluded: “This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with ‘real’ events when the heart isn’t beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat.

This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.
World's largest near death experiences study | University of Southampton

I hope that you're not referring to AWARE I or AWARE II, because for all of it's years of effort AWARE I found absolutely no cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one. Zero

Then after more years of study AWARE II found... you guessed it... zero cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one.

No I was referring to the Near Death Experience Research Foundation which has been a world wide ongoing study. So it has many more clients and experiences to draw upon from all around the world.

But I have also linked support from the AWARE study which states that the majority of NDE involved deceased relatives. The lead scientists Dr Parnia also mentions this.

Evidence from AWARE and other studies, he says, raises the possibility that the mind or consciousness — the psyche, the “self,” the thing that “makes me Sam” and that makes us uniquely who we are — may not originate in the brain and may be a separate, undiscovered scientific entity, similar in nature to the electromagnetic waves that can carry sound and pictures.

So he's going one better. He says that the evidence from AWARE suggests the possibility of consciousness existing outside the physical brain. He also makes this claim from the findings about mostly meeting deceased relatives

The stories of “experiencers” share strikingly similar features: a sensation of feeling peaceful and joyous and an absence of pain; a warm, welcoming light that draws people, sometimes through a tunnel; being greeted by apparitions of deceased relatives, or a “being of light,” a panoramic review of key moments of one’s life.

Of the similar features he mentions being greeted by apparitions of deceased relatives. He doesn't mention meeting living relatives as a strikingly similar feature but rather meeting deceased relatives. So why would the lead scientist say that if none of the NDE'ers met deceased relatives.

Heres one example of a child meeting their grandma during a NDE from the study

“When I died, I saw a bright lamp,” the boy told Parnia during a play session. “Grandma came to meet me and said I was going to be okay.”
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies

So the kid must have been coached to say this. Its all a conspiracy.

But what you're probably referring to is this 'study'.

Evidence of the Afterlife

Unfortunately this wasn't actually a study at all, it was simply someone gathering together a bunch of anecdotal stories and then using them to draw a number of totally illegitimate conclusions.

IT'S WORTHLESS!!!!

I don't know how you can say that. The main evdience for consciousness is personal experiences. Its the only way we can know conscious experience. So dismissing the conscious experiences of people having NDE is dismissing the only evidence we can work out what is going on. There is no physical test to find these experiences in the physical brain. An electrical pulse does not contain exhileration or transcendent experiences in it.

So what this study has done has gathered personal experiences from all around the world, 1,000's of them and then correlated it all to draw out certain common aspects. That is what science does. It gathers the data and then draws out what is being agreed upon as happening. So they have found certain common experiences such as traveling to some other dimension, seeing a light and meeting deceased relatives or some god like being, having life reviews, feelings of peace, lacking fear of death and OBE ect.

So I'm not sure your in a position to say that these experiences are worthless. To the NDE'er they are real, more real than daily experience. So real that its the most profound thing that has ever happened to the. So at the very least we have to say what they are describing was something they really experienced and they were not making it up. Of course skeptics will have to conclude that its being made up. That the person is deluded. They cannot bare that it could be true.

Easily countered with the following which suggests that meeting living loved ones is far more common than meeting deceased ones.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE

I actually linked an article from the same author that mentions most NDE'ers met deceased relatives.

The Kelly study found that 95 percent of the deceased individuals encountered were relatives, while only 5 percent were friends or acquaintances. Only 4 percent of the NDErs in the study met beings who were alive at the time of the NDE. Other studies have shown that in dreams or hallucinations, the beings encountered are much more likely to be people who are still living.
http://www.evreninsirlari.net/dosyalar/145_s04_02.pdf

I am not sure if your article is referring to the same one. But even your article mentions something similar.

Most people who have such an experience during an NDE are convinced that they have been in the presence of a deceased loved one whose consciousness has apparently survived physical death in some form capable of being experienced or perceived by a still-living person.
A total of 129 identified deceased people were reported as having been encountered during these NDEs. Of these, 68 ( 53% ) were male and 61 ( 47% ) were female. Most were relatives; only ( 5% ) were friends or acquaintances.

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/KEL13-NDEwithReports-of-Meeting-Deceased-People.pdf

Now this conclusion I'll grant you. Some small proportion of people who suffer a life threatening episode will experience a very vivid and realistic life altering psychological event. But I've never seen any evidence that these events aren't simply part of the natural process of dying. How realistic, or life altering a dying person perceives them to be is irrelevant. To a schizophrenic person the voices in their head may be real and life altering as well, but that doesn't mean that they exist anywhere other than in their own head.

How vivid and life altering a psychological event may be doesn't make it real, no matter how fervently you want it to.

But unlike mental disorders, hallucinations, imaginations or delusions it seems most that qualify as NDE are coherent, clear and realistic to the person. They don't have the hallmarks of delusions. In fact brain readings show they align with real life experiences and memories rather than imaginations.

“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study
Findings showed that NDE memories were similar to real memories in terms of detail richness, self-referential, and emotional information. Moreover, NDE memories were significantly different from memories of imagined events. It is notable that the EEG pattern of correlations for NDE memory recall differed from the pattern for memories of imagined events.
“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study

 

[stevevw]

I didn't say that simply having a dream caused you to change your life. I said coming close to death does that. I would have thought that to be obvious. That some people have a memory of some dream/hallucination as their body went through an extreme experience as well is irrelevant to that pschological change. It's realising that life is extremely tenuous that changes you. Not a dream that you had about a chat with your late great aunt Elsie.

I think that is exactly what the difference NDE is about between those who may have a near to death scare without a NDE and those who have a NDE. That they think they really did visit the afterlife and met their maker and had a life review and then got a second chance makes a world of difference.

Your calling what they went through a dream or hallucination. But the point is the experiencer doesn't think this. They think it actually happened and the studies show the richness of detail, emotion and realness of the NDE compared to imagined events. The logic is the more real it seems the more its going to effect your life to a greater degree.

Coming close to death and being scared is different to actually having a NDE of actually leaving this world and meeting your maker and being given a second chance. It will profoundly change you much more.

Studies have shown this difference and that NDE is different to dreams, hallucination and imagination and more in line with real events. That the after effects are more profound that imaginations of what may have happened or can happen. You can imagine visting space but theres nothing compared to actually being there.

Our integrative-effort study showed that NDE memories are different from imagined autobiographical memories and very similar to memories of real events, in terms of detail richness, self-referential and emotional information.

Findings showed that NDE memories were similar to real memories in terms of detail richness, self-referential, and emotional information. Moreover, NDE memories were significantly different from memories of imagined events. It is notable that the EEG pattern of correlations for NDE memory recall differed from the pattern for memories of imagined events.
“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study

“We were able to conclude that the recalled experience of death is real. It occurs with death, and there’s a brain marker that we’ve identified. These electrical signals are not being produced as a trick of a dying brain, which is what a lot of critics have said.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/14/health/near-death-experience-study-wellness/index.html

The consistency, intensity, and durability of NDE aftereffects is consistent with the NDErs’ typical personal assessments that their experiences were very meaningful and significant. It is remarkable that NDEs often occur during only minutes of unconsciousness, yet commonly result in substantial and life-long transformations of beliefs and value

It is informative to consider how near-death experiencers themselves view the reality of their experiences. An NDERF survey of 1122 NDErs asked “How do you currently view the reality of your experience?”,
Experience was definitely real 95.6%
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

[Emmawowee]

All I know is once we find the answer to the hard problem of consciousness (if we ever do), both Christian and atheist jaws will collapse to the floor.

 

[partinobodycular]

All I know is once we find the answer to the hard problem of consciousness (if we ever do), both Christian and atheist jaws will collapse to the floor.

Did you intend this to sound as irrational as it does?

 

[Emmawowee]

Did you intend this to sound as irrational as it does?

Well if you have the hard problem of consciousness figured out that neuroscientists, physicists, and philosophers haven't, let me know. I bet you'll win lots of money for it.

Hard problem of consciousness - Scholarpedia

www.scholarpedia.org

 

[Bradskii]

I think that is exactly what the difference NDE is about between those who may have a near to death scare without a NDE and those who have a NDE. That they think they really did visit the afterlife...

I sure that some of them thought that.

 

[stevevw]

I sure that some of them thought that.

Not some but the majority some 95% plus believe NDE is more real than everyday consciousness. So we are left with the question if they really believe that what they experienced was real, even more real than you or I sitting on our computers typing then how can such an experience happen when someone is clinically dead or unconscious.

Even if in the fight for life when dying when there is panic and chaos. How can such a real, clear and vivid experience happen which is associated with calmness, peace, clarity and coherency.

It should not happen at all in a brain that has flatlined, unconscious or even misfiring in the parts of the brain that require complex combinations of neurons all working, never mind shutting down or disconnecting.

We know when something is not real, is a dream, is confusing and hard to remember all the details and we don't think its real enough to warrant the same level of importance and realness as these NDE's.

At the very least I think its premature to dismiss NDE as delusions or imaginations and warrant further investigation. There are other areas of research that also point to mind or consciousness beyond physical brain. So if anything I think the evidence is beginning to converge on Mind being something independent of the physical world not created by it.

 

[Emmawowee]

Not some but the majority some 95% plus. So we are left with the question if they really believe that what they experienced was real, even more real than you or I sitting on our computers typing then how can such an experience happen when someone is clinically dead or unconscious. Even if in the fight for life when dying when there is panic and chaos. How can such a real, clear and vivid experience happen which is associated with calmness, peace, clarity, coherency.

It should not happen at all in a brain that has flatlined or even misfiring in the parts of the brain that require such conscious thoughts. We know when something is not real, is a dream, is confusing and hard to remember all the details and we don't think its real enough to warrant the same level of importance and realness as these NDE's.

At the very least I think its premature to dismiss NDE as delusions or imaginations and warrant further investigation. There are other areas of research that also point to mind or consciousness beyond physical brain. So if anything I think the evdience is beginning to converge on Mind being something independent of the physical world not created by it.

I don’t think people grasp how giant the implications of this are for the study of consciousness. It completely changes how we see memory, neural correlates, everything.

 

[stevevw]

I don’t think people grasp how giant the implications of this are for the study of consciousness. It completely changes how we see memory, neural correlates, everything.

Yes and I think this is happening in a number of fields like physics, biology, cosmology and psychology. Especially quantum physics. I think its the future and we are seeing many new Journals and theories coming in these areas all attemption to figure things out.

We know how to measure the physical world in quantities but we havn't yet worked out how to fit the most important part into the equation, the conscious observer, the scientist doing the measuring. How does this fit, what effect does it have. Is reality fundementally material or immaterial, Matter or Mind.

 

[Bradskii]

Been there, done that. As I've said many times before anecdotal stories don't impress me. If you happen to know of a verified example by all means let me know, otherwise stories on YouTube are just stories on YouTube.

So, do you know of a verified example, or am I left with nothing... again?

Like the story of the shoe seen on a second storey ledge. Meant to be one of the slam dunk proofs of nde. Comprehensively and completely dismantled somewhere upstream in this thread. All it takes is a minimal amount of investigation to show that all these stories are bunk.

 

[partinobodycular]

Like the story of the shoe seen on a second storey ledge. Meant to be one of the slam dunk proofs of nde. Comprehensively and completely dismantled somewhere upstream in this thread. All it takes is a minimal amount of investigation to show that all these stories are bunk.

It's too good of a dismantling not to be linked #312

 

[Laodicean60]

Been there, done that. As I've said many times before anecdotal stories don't impress me. If you happen to know of a verified example by all means let me know, otherwise stories on YouTube are just stories on YouTube.

So, do you know of a verified example, or am I left with nothing... again?

You haven't been there and done that dude, that's your anecdotal story. By reading your replies I can see that you haven't looked into it. You keep saying show me, show me. How about you show me evidence against it? There is a thing called Google Scholar where you can find your evidence if you truly want to learn. You are left with nothing because of your willful ignorance. If you really want hard evidence I'll pray that you experience an NDE. Are you going to deny Quantum Science about living in a simulation and consciousness? Peace

 

[Larniavc]

You keep saying show me, show me. How about you show me evidence against it?

The burden of evidence is on the person making the positive claim. Simply saying "you need to prove me wrong" is inappropriate.

 

[Bradskii]

How about you show me evidence against it?

We need an example of 'it'. Please furnish the very best one that you have and we'll discuss it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You haven't been there and done that dude, that's your anecdotal story. By reading your replies I can see that you haven't looked into it. You keep saying show me, show me. How about you show me evidence against it? There is a thing called Google Scholar where you can find your evidence if you truly want to learn. You are left with nothing because of your willful ignorance. If you really want hard evidence I'll pray that you experience an NDE. Are you going to deny Quantum Science about living in a simulation and consciousness? Peace

Let's get the trivia out of the way first - yes, I'm going to deny 'Quantum Science about living in a simulation and consciousness' - quantum science has nothing to say about either living in a simulation or consciousness.

As for NDEs, people who are near death sometimes report vivid hallucinatory or dream-like experiences, there's little doubt about that. The best scientific studies of these reported experiences are consistent with them being internally generated - the same class of experiential phenomena as dreams, psychedelic 'trips', hallucinations, etc. A likely explanation is brain hypoxia or other trauma. Under controlled conditions, no inexplicable phenomena have been observed and no inexplicable information obtained.

OTOH, there is a vast literature of anecdotal NDE reports of supernatural or magical experiences of other places, times, dimensions, and/or realms (realities?). Lots of claims, but no verifiable evidence that these are 'real'. A few that made verifiable claims that have been investigated were found to be mistaken or fraudulent. Unfortunately, anecdotal reports become embellished, confabulated, and exaggerated with retelling to make a better story, either unwittingly or deliberately, which makes their reliability uncertain, and some use such stories in attention-seeking and money-making schemes to lure in the ignorant and gullible.

But if you have some high-quality examples that you consider indisputable evidence of supernatural or paranormal NDEs I'd be curious to hear them - links to source material preferred.

 

[Laodicean60]

We need an example of 'it'. Please furnish the very best one that you have and we'll discuss it.

NDEs under General Anesthesia by Barbara Mango

www.nderf.org

 

[Bradskii]

NDEs under General Anesthesia by Barbara Mango

www.nderf.org

Let's use this one:

'Upon waking, however, Pam was able to describe with complete accuracy the entire procedure, the surgical instruments used, detailed conversations of the medical team, and a song playing on the radio during her surgery.'

Sounds like she was discussing this with the doctors when she awoke. Which would add some weight to her experience. It's not like she waited a year before discussing it when memories have faded, and we start to reinterpret long gone events. But...

'...a year later, she mentioned the details to her neurosurgeon. Spetzler says her account matched his memory.' https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104397005

Really? Twelve months and the doc remembered details of a type of surgery he would regularly have performed on dozens of patients? I mean, good grief, she could describe the procedure because that would have been explained to her in great detail before the op. And she heard the music before she went under. She was awake when she was wheeled in.

This is the best you got? It's a fail.

 

[partinobodycular]

NDEs under General Anesthesia by Barbara Mango

www.nderf.org

I have to agree with @Bradskii, this one is a fail. The rather obvious conclusion being that she was conscious enough to be aware of what was going on around her. You can find a thorough explanation of the process here:

Could Pam Reynolds Hear? A New Investigation into the Possibility of Hearing During this Famous Near-Death Experience

But in reality all that you need to do is to ask yourself a simple question. If the anesthesia had masked any outward signs, how would one know if a patient had been conscious during surgery? The answer seems obvious, they would describe it to you after the fact. Which is EXACTLY what happened in the case of Pam Reynolds.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[stevevw]

I don't think consciousness beyond the physical brain can be supported by NDE alone and needs to be understood from several lines of evidence such as from psychology, evolution, physics and the more transcedent aspects such as belief and morality.

What we have to remember with NDE and OBE and the evidence is that OBE of some sort is experienced by around 40% of NDE'ers and even higher % for those who experienced some sort of seperation of consciousness from their body but not necessarily having an OBE. Then there is also those who have an OBE without necessarily having a NDE either due to other reasons or in association with someone they knew who was having a NDE.

Overall there are millions of people who report these kinds of experiences. But certainly those who do have an OBE due to a NDE where they are either clinically dead or unconscious there are many verified cases where the person described being outside their bodies, seeing themselves, others and their surroundings.

Many of these cases have been supported but not in any dramatic way. Like reporting accurately their surroundings, conversations and sometimes describing other places which have at least had some corroberating support from 3rd parties.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...val_after_permanent_bodily_death_includes_TOC

But for me what is most interesting is that the majority of people believe that what they experienced was real. Was more real than everyday experiences. I think its the quality of the experience that lends support because these NDE are on par if not above everyday consciousness which is our basis for reality, for how we see the world and embody it.

So though NDE is happening when the brain is not usually capable of consciousness it seems a strange phenomena to have and be some delusion or illusion that is not real or doesn't have some significance for what is a human.

The NDE'ers share astonishly similar experiences regardless of age or culture so its not entirely subjective in the way individual psychological thinking is causing the experience. There are some common experiences and they are very transcendental and usually about the afterlife, morality, divinity, life reviews and having an impression more so than any waking consciousness.

There is some scientific evdience now coming from studies of brain waves where spikes in brain waves similar to higher thinking and consciousness have been recorded during the period when the persons brain has flatlined up to an hour or so. So there is certainly something happening during that time. These patterns have been compared to brain waves when someone is imagining or dreaming and they are different.

The NDE'ers really believe they experienced consciousness beyond their physical bodies. So I guess the best evidence is like with all consciousness the actual testimony of the person having the experience and they believe it was more real than anything they have experienced.

So like most of areas where consciuousness and agency is involved the materialist view will always devalue experiences as illusions or unreal because of the causal closure of the physical. Our sense of self and agency in the world and beyond is explained away by materialist ideas. But as we have seen in physics this view is being questioned. Reality is more than little bits of matter but more like the Mind.

It comes down to a battle between two world views I guess materialism and immaterialism as to what a person is willing to consider as real. BUt we can't keep saying all these experiences are unreal and all the people are duluded all the time. At some point we have to stop and consider whether there is something to what is going on.