General anesthesia and consciousness

[Tropical Wilds]

Don't try and compare the two things. What you said is either lying and manipulative or IDK what. Not the same thing at all.

LoL, of course you’d say that. One was you doing it to somebody else, so that’s ok. The other was somebody doing it to you and thus not ok.

And for somebody who was all in a twist about a personal attack that never happened, you have no problem saying I’m either lying or manipulative, while ignoring the more obvious option: that you’re not as informed as you think you are and certainly not more informed than me.

I took a lot of time explaining things to you, the best you have is to stick your hands in your ears and say “nuh uh.” The fact remains: while NDE as a phenomenon are real, the theories as to what happens during them in terms of consciousness and experience is pseudoscience.

 

[All Becomes New]

I took a lot of time explaining things to you, the best you have is to stick your hands in your ears and say “nuh uh.” The fact remains: while NDE as a phenomenon are real, the theories as to what happens during them in terms of consciousness and experience is pseudoscience.

Oh, really? So when you say NDE research is pseudoscience you expect me to just believe you have done all this research on it? And now when I tell you you are either lying or manipulative you think now is a good time to say what you actually meant was not that NDE research itself is pseudoscience, but just the conclusions people come to on it are.

Yeah, so unless you want to tell me what your name is and what university you have studied this stuff at, I think we are done here.

 

[Bradskii]

Yeah, so unless you want to tell me what your name is and what university you have studied this stuff at, I think we are done here.

Many people have done some quite intensive studies on NDEs. Some presented in this thread. Actual scientific papers. That they happen has never been in dispute.

What is in dispute, and what has been rejected, are claims by people that any reported supernatural occurrences are factual. Ones that have been presented (and those asking for them have been rigorously suggesting that only the most compellìng cases are put forward) have either been shown to be factually incorrect or much more mundane and prosaic explanations have been given.

That's it. There is no more to discuss. The 'best' cases have been examined and by no stretch of anyone's imagination could they be declared as anything approaching reasonable proof.

 

[All Becomes New]

That's it. There is no more to discuss. The 'best' cases have been examined and by no stretch of anyone's imagination could they be declared as anything approaching reasonable proof.

I'd be a horrible Christian if I inserted my own meanings of what the Bible says into the Bible itself. That is what you are doing with these written accounts of NDEs. The fact they exist at all should at least make your ears perk up. That people have the same core experiences should make you think. That people report being conscious when they should be dead should make you question your own view. And when there are circumstances where a person's brain is drained of its blood and they have a machine over their ears that prevents them from hearing and they somehow remember an obscure number on a machine should really be enough to change your mind that whatever people are experiences in these NDEs is not natural.

 

[partinobodycular]

That people report being conscious when they should be dead

Except that there's no way to know when their NDE actually occurred, except in cases where the person never actually died. Then we can be certain that it happened before death. Otherwise, there are three possibilities for when the NDE occurred, before dying, while actually dead, or during resuscitation. Studies show that under anesthesia most dreams occur during resuscitation. Others occur when the level of anesthesia drops below a prescribed level, but dreams have never been shown to occur while the patient was actually dead.

The problem is that the only evidence that is supportive of NDE's occurring during the period when the patient is actually dead comes from vNDE's, and as we've now seen, these are extremely iffy. It's far more likely that the patient was simply dreaming, either when their level of anesthesia was low, or during resuscitation, and that any specific events that they remember were simply due to their being on the verge of consciousness, or later being exposed to references to events that occurred while they were 'dead'.

In other words, there's no clear evidence that anyone has ever had an NDE while they were dead.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Oh, really? So when you say NDE research is pseudoscience you expect me to just believe you have done all this research on it? And now when I tell you you are either lying or manipulative you think now is a good time to say what you actually meant was not that NDE research itself is pseudoscience, but just the conclusions people come to on it are.

Yeah, so unless you want to tell me what your name is and what university you have studied this stuff at, I think we are done here.

You want my name? LoL! Other than being a weird and creepy thing to demand, it’s irrelevant. You don’t need my name and, frankly, you don’t we deserve to have it. Given your behavior, I don’t trust you or your intentions and the last thing I need is some guy who’s big mad at being shown up by me on the internet banging on my door.

You want where I studied? I’m sorry, did I miss where you shared what college and under what degree study you got your education on the topic? What are your credentials? What are your certifications? How long have you worked in the medical field? How many deaths you helped doula? Or even how many deaths and near-deaths you encountered while working as a first responder?

Frankly, if it wasn’t for the creepy “what’s your name?” request, I would feel super proud that if all the people who said you lacked insight and the ability to engage in a back and forth, I was the only one you got so mad over not being able to refute that I got called names, insulted, and so clearly got under your skin. That kind of response only comes out of being challenged, unable to refute what was said, being forced to confront you may be wrong, and lashing out of anger and fear.

And I did it without name calling and personal attacks… Well, beyond calling it creepy and weird to demand personal information from somebody who you’re mad knows more about something than you do… But I’d argue that isn’t a personal attack but a statement of fact as I think it would be a near universal consensus that is an inappropriate request, and a declaration of boundaries by saying no and explaining why.

 

[partinobodycular]

And when there are circumstances where a person's brain is drained of its blood and they have a machine over their ears that prevents them from hearing and they somehow remember an obscure number on a machine

Well, depending upon the circumstances that might be an event worth considering, but seeing as how such an event has never actually happened it simply makes the claims of NDE supporters even weaker, by demonstrating that people tend to misremember and embellish things. Exactly as you just did. Unless you'd like to favor us with the particulars of this case, at which point I'll gladly consider it.

 

[All Becomes New]

I'll gladly consider it.

No, you won't.

 

[partinobodycular]

No, you won't.

I absolutely will, there's just one problem... no such event has ever happened. I think that you simply combined two NDE cases together. The Pam Reynolds case, and the Dr. Norma Bowe case. The first one involves taped eyes, molded ear plugs, and drained blood, but doesn't involve remembering a number. The Dr. Norma Bowe case involves remembering a number, but practically nothing else. Then you just did what people naturally tend to do, you combined information from the the two stories together to make one mega-impressive story. Unfortunately it never happened, and that my friends is why people tend not to trust personal testimony... it can't be trusted.

So the next time that you see an amazing NDE story, just remind yourself to take everything someone says with a couple of oversized helpings of salt. Then you'll have a proper perspective from which to objectively judge the merits of the claims. To do anything else is just plain foolish.