General anesthesia and consciousness

[stevevw]

People who experience any kind of altered state generated by an abnormal stressor on the does that.

Not really. Drugs, poisons or lack of oxygen cause fragmented and unreal experiences and are often confusing and forgetful. Each experience is individual because its based on the psychological state of the person and each persons psychological state is different. So the experiences will be different.

They don't meet deceased relatives especially those forgotten or not even known. They don't see themselves from above being able to describe their surroundings with accuracy and they don't have profound life changes especially morally such as life reviews highlighting forgotten wrongs which cause them to change their life for the better and lacking a fear of death. Quiet the opposite because drugs and lack of oxygen are fragmented and confusing they are often fearful and anxious and hard to recall.

The research shows that those on drugs or lacking oxygen usually see people who are alive or unknown people in their dreams. Whereas most NDE'ers meet actual deceased relatives and remember long forgotten encounters or episodes in their life associated with something they may have done wrong or left unresolved with others.

Followups on these experiences show that most people believe their experience was more real than everyday experiences and that they get most of what they have experienced correct meaning it wasn't something made up or imagined or a dellusion but something that actually happened.

The fact that these experiences stay with them for years even a lifetime and change their lives and themselves means there was a realness about the experiences compared to dreams and dulusions which the person knows are not real and are forgotten about soon after.

What I find interesting is that you could get 100 people who have experienced dreams or delusions from non NDE and the experiences will vary, will not necessarily be about death, meeting real deceased relatives, or angels and godlike beings traveling towards some light like they are entering another dimemsions because they are dying. Their dreams can be a mixture of things because they are not dying..

But for those experiencing NDE everyones experiences are much the same regardless of culture or age. Its all about death, life reviews, second chances, meeting other deceased souls which profoundly effect them like they actually did experience what they did because they are near death which would be the exact experiences we would expect if they were near death or died and came back.

 

[Gracchus]

I linked something that was in a peer-reviewed journal. You didn't want to read it. So how is it my fault?

Do you apply the same amount of skepticism toward all academic literature? My guess is you don't and you do here because it contradicts your worldview.

You linked to something published by "Liberty University", which is self-described as a theological seminary. The author, Mr. Habermas, is a theologian. His "peers" are theologians.
Geology studies the Earth. Biology studies life. Neurology studies neural systems. Theology studies what theologians say, since "God" is unavailable for study.


“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” ― Buddha Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni

 

[All Becomes New]

You linked to something published by "Liberty University", which is self-described as a theological seminary. The author, Mr. Habermas, is a theologian. His "peers" are theologians.

I've linked tons of peer-reviewed things in this thread at this point. This argument has no teeth. And Dr. Habermas actually got his Ph.D. at a secular school.

Geology studies the Earth. Biology studies life. Neurology studies neural systems. Theology studies what theologians say, since "God" is unavailable for study.

Completely irrelevant to the topic.

 

[Larniavc]

I've linked tons of peer-reviewed things in this thread at this point.

No you haven't.

 

[Aldebaran]

 

[Bradskii]

The link I provided to a site that specializes in gathering information on NDE. As personal experience is important in understanding this phenomena it primarily collects 1,000s of personal stories on NDE in many languages from around the world. Its been going sinces 1998 and has amassed a large amount of information.

Near Death Experience Research Foundation (NDERF, nderf.org) was established to conduct NDE research. There are 1,000's of NDEs posted on the NDERF website, which is by far the largest collection of publicly accessible NDE accounts in the world. So all the information you need is there. They investigate NDE'ers 2 and 8 years after the ir NDE and provide the findings.

Near Death Experience Research Foundation

NDERF Home Page

Near Death Experience Research Foundation the largest collection of Near Death Experiences (NDE) in over 23 Languages. With thousands of full-text near death experiences posted. Share your near death experience, research, spiritually transforming events, consciousness studies, extensive...

www.nderf.org

Heres more on the after effects of NDE from the same article I linked earlier where followup reseach after NDE showed NDE'ers had more profound changes, in their view of life, fear of death, increased belief in the after life, greater meaning in life and more compassionate and loving towards others compared to others who had gone through similar experiences without a NDE. Many people were completely different compared to before their NDE.

Some of the best evidence for NDE-specific aftereffects came from the largest prospective NDE study ever reported. This study, conducted by Pim van Lommel, MD, divided survivors of cardiac arrest into a group that had NDEs, and a group that did not. 12 The aftereffects of both groups were assessed two and eight years after the cardiac arrests. The group of cardiac arrest survivors with NDEs were statistically more likely have a reduced fear of death, increased belief in life after death, interest in the meaning of life, acceptance of others, and were more loving and empathic. It may take years after NDEs for the aftereffects to become fully manifest.

The aftereffects may be so substantial that NDErs may seem to be very different people to their loved ones and family. The consistency, intensity, and durability of NDE aftereffects is consistent with the NDErs’ typical personal assessments that their experiences were very meaningful and significant. It is remarkable that NDEs often occur during only minutes of unconsciousness, yet commonly result in substantial and life-long transformations of beliefs and values.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: A prospective study in the Netherlands.
In a longitudinal study of life changes after NDE, we compared the groups 2 and 8 years later.

Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands - PubMed

We do not know why so few cardiac patients report NDE after CPR, although age plays a part. With a purely physiological explanation such as cerebral anoxia for the experience, most patients who have been clinically dead should report one.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

About the Continuity of our Consciousness
Nearly all people who have experienced an NDE lose their fear of death. This is due to the realization that there is a continuation of consciousness

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/members/sigs/spirituality-spsig/pimvanlommel_about.pdf?sfvrsn=cb878f8c_4

Near-Death Experiencers’ Beliefs and Aftereffects: Problems for the Fischer and Mitchell-Yellin Naturalist Explanation
Among the phenomena of near-death experiences (NDEs) are what are known as aftereffects whereby, over time, experiencers undergo substantial, long-term life changes, becoming less fearful of death, more moral and spiritual, and more convinced that life has meaning and that an afterlife exists.Naturalist Thesis does not adequately explain NDEs or the vast array of their aftereffects, whereas the Afterlife Thesis is consistent with both the experience and its aftermath.

https://philarchive.org/archive/BRINEB

All those new found consideration for loved ones etc are the result of nearly dying. Period. I don't want this to get personal but I had to have a check up a few months ago. Tests done. Because there was something that could have been serious. I'm a glass half full type of guy but one can't help thinking 'Well, maybe there is something serious going on. Maybe things aren't going to turn out the way I want.' But they did. A week later I was cleared of anything that could have been wrong. I'm actually a lot healthier than my lifestyle warrants.

After that? I rang my brother to tell him I loved him. I feel closer to my wife and kids. I'm booking trips away. I'm not wasting so much time. I'm still on a slight high. And I'm not sure it's going to go away.

Fear of death does many things to us. Cheating it changes you. Whether you imagines tunnels, bright lights or heavenly choirs. Ask anyone who has come close.

 

[stevevw]

All those new found consideration for loved ones etc are the result of nearly dying. Period. I don't want this to get personal but I had to have a check up a few months ago. Tests done. Because there was something that could have been serious. I'm a glass half full type of guy but one can't help thinking 'Well, maybe there is something serious going on. Maybe things aren't going to turn out the way I want.' But they did. A week later I was cleared of anything that could have been wrong. I'm actually a lot healthier than my lifestyle warrants.

After that? I rang my brother to tell him I loved him. I feel closer to my wife and kids. I'm booking trips away. I'm not wasting so much time. I'm still on a slight high. And I'm not sure it's going to go away.

Fear of death does many things to us. Cheating it changes you. Whether you imagines tunnels, bright lights or heavenly choirs. Ask anyone who has come close.

So those feelings and experiences are real for you. The same with NDE except instead of happening in waking hours its happening during a time when someone is actually clinically dead. Instead of an after thought its something that happened during a time when they were facing death and unconscious or clinically dead.

TheAnother destinction is you are thinking about loved ones who are alive which seems logical as its related to whats happening in your daily life with people around you. But NDE'ers usually have experiences beyond their daily experiences, meeting deceased and not alive loved ones even relatives they have never met but identifying them later.

This seems strange considering that the NDE'er is dead and so are the deceased relatives. Like they visited the realm of where those dead relatives reside. Why dead ones and not live ones which would seem more logical because they of most concern.

As you say your on a high and those feelings may reside as time goes by. But for NDE'ers they don't which testifies to the realness of what happened. Many actually become different people, become religious like they had met God or experienced something that caused them to believe there is an afterlife where we will be accountable for their lives.

Now most people don't become religious or believe in an afterlife. Certainly you didn't. The experiences though impactful at the time usually wear off. So your experience like others who don't have a NDE can vary. But for NDE'ers its consistent across culture, age, religion, and race which seems to point to something beyond personal psychologiocal makeups which would vary depending on the persons relationships and life in the here and now.

If you became religious, or changed your job to help others or began speaking about the afterlife people around you would think you must have had some profound experience. They may think you are delusional in speaking about God or angels or the afterlife. Thats how profound these experiences are. I don't think dreams or delusions can have that effect or at least not lasting because the person eventually senses they were unreal.

 

[Bradskii]

This seems strange considering that the NDE'er is dead...

No they're not. And you said that having a life changing experience is part evidence for an NDE. I just explained that that isn't necessarily true. Nearly dying causes life changing experiences, whether they are descibed as NDE or not. So I'm excluding them for that reason.

 

[partinobodycular]

This seems strange considering that the NDE'er is dead and so are the deceased relatives. Like they visited the realm of where those dead relatives reside.

This is the type of anecdotal evidence that I really DO NOT LIKE, because it seems to be based entirely upon people's selective memory. It certainly seems as if a lot of NDE's involve meeting deceased loved ones, but not nearly as many seem to involve meeting living loved ones

But if the following study is to be believed then this simply isn't true. People experiencing NDE's were far more likely to report seeing living people than they were to report seeing deceased people. But this shouldn't be surprising because perfectly healthy people will report seeing a mixture of deceased people and living people.

In the following study:
In patients who were close to death the ratio was 28 deceased people to 102 living people.
In patients who weren't close to death the ratio was 9 deceased people to 98 living people.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE

The problem is that people who believe that NDE's are proof of an afterlife are naturally going to focus on the stories that fit that narrative. But the fact is that they prove absolutely nothing except that dreams/hallucinations/NDE's will sometimes include living people and sometimes include deceased people. Proponents of NDE's simply seem to be reading more into the stories than is warranted.

 

[juanwood]

During a general anesthesia, communication between sub-regions of brain is halted and this causes consciousness to disappear. No dreams, no observation, no experience, no memories. Just a full shut down and a restart later.

How do you interpret it from Christian and others perspective?

I underwent surgery. there was just...nothing...when I was under. No light at the end of the tunnel, no out of body experience, just...nothing. it has really shaken my faith badly, and I'm not in a good way mentally and spiritually from the experience. I am just so lost and questioning my faith.

 

[trophy33]

I underwent surgery. there was just...nothing...when I was under. No light at the end of the tunnel, no out of body experience, just...nothing. it has really shaken my faith badly, and I'm not in a good way mentally and spiritually from the experience. I am just so lost and questioning my faith.

As I understand it, some people have some consciousness or experience during general anesthesia, most dont.

I would not worry about not having NDE, though, because anesthesia does not make you dead, just disconnects communication between brain sections, so you are still alive, just without a working brain. If you were conscious, its probable you forgot it after the brain was restored.

As I see it, your self was stuck in your brain (you were not dead, so still in your body), but your brain was not allowing you to have any meaningful experience or thought. Like being locked in a dark room.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I underwent surgery. there was just...nothing...when I was under. No light at the end of the tunnel, no out of body experience, just...nothing. it has really shaken my faith badly, and I'm not in a good way mentally and spiritually from the experience. I am just so lost and questioning my faith.

I "died" on the table and had to be resuscitated after experiencing an allergic reaction to a medication while I was under general anesthesia. I don't remember anything at all. For 3 days they kept me sedated and I only have flashes of things from when I was in the ICU after. Some of those memories I'm pretty sure are mental reconstructions based on what I was told afterward happened at the time and not things I actually have conscious memory of.

I was a Christian at the time.

I decided if I ever am able to choose how I die it will be to be put to sleep and never wake up.

 

[Emmawowee]

I underwent surgery. there was just...nothing...when I was under. No light at the end of the tunnel, no out of body experience, just...nothing. it has really shaken my faith badly, and I'm not in a good way mentally and spiritually from the experience. I am just so lost and questioning my faith.

So even though you didn’t go through resusicitation, 22:26 is why some people appear to not have NDEs

And also scientist are not sure how general anestheisa works. Consciousness in general is a mystery, and there is a horrifying, yet interesting theory that you’re actually completely aware during general anesthesia but it has some mechanism on forming memories about it. I would suggest doing your own research on it.

 

[stevevw]

No they're not.

The studies on NDE used a measure to determine clinical death.

“In our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the corneareflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. So we have to conclude that NDE in our study was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem.​

But even so even if these types of experiences happen when not clinically dead or even unconscious they seem to be regarded as real events and not dreams or delusions. As real as though consciously lived and therefore thats why they are remembered and have such profound impact. Remembering that these experiences are of a transient nature and are not the usual experiences in everyday life and transcend spatio temporal events.

Research has found that NDE are different from dreams and delusions and memories of real lived events in life. Yet they have the same quality and even more of real lived memories.

Findings showed that NDE memories were similar to real memories in terms of detail richness, self-referential, and emotional information. Moreover, NDE memories were significantly different from memories of imagined events. It is notable that this experience is typically defined by most NDErs as “realer than real” All participants who lived NDEs described them as the most powerful, intense, vivid, important, and founding experience of their life. In synthesis, the EEG findings suggest that NDE memories are episodic memories of events experienced in a peculiar state of consciousness.
In conclusion, our integrative-effort study showed that NDE memories are different from imagined autobiographical memories and very similar to memories of real events, in terms of detail richness, self-referential and emotional information.
“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study

And you said that having a life changing experience is part evidence for an NDE. I just explained that that isn't necessarily true. Nearly dying causes life changing experiences, whether they are descibed as NDE or not. So I'm excluding them for that reason.

Fair enough. But there are particular experiences that set NDE apart from non NDE. The point of the evidence was to show that the life change was not based on the usual scare of nearly dying, imagining these experiences or conscious appraisal without a NDE. But rather having a real experience. That they were so real that they impacted the person for life.

It seems strange that people are making long term changes, becoming different people, gaining a belief in the after life and even God due to a delusion or dream which are seen as unreal. People would not make such profound changes based on something classed as unreal or imagined according to skeptics.

 

[stevevw]

This is the type of anecdotal evidence that I really DO NOT LIKE, because it seems to be based entirely upon people's selective memory.

Actually according to the studioes I linked its not based on selective memories but clear and vivid experiences whose detail have been verified. They contain much more detail and richness compared to other memories even of real events in everyday life and show more consistency compared to what would be expected if these experiences were the result of imagined events or events based on individual psychological experiences.

It certainly seems as if a lot of NDE's involve meeting deceased loved ones, but not nearly as many seem to involve meeting living loved ones

But if the following study is to be believed then this simply isn't true. People experiencing NDE's were far more likely to report seeing living people than they were to report seeing deceased people. But this shouldn't be surprising because perfectly healthy people will report seeing a mixture of deceased people and living people.

In the following study:
In patients who were close to death the ratio was 28 deceased people to 102 living people.
In patients who weren't close to death the ratio was 9 deceased people to 98 living people.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE

At least for the articles I linked for which one was the largest study on the topic this showed that for NDE'ers most has met deceased relatives

The Greyson Scale which is the measure for what is classed as a NDE has 16 criteria for which at least some if not all criteria should be met. One of those criteria is
Seeing deceased persons or religious spirits.

Near-death studies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NDE are commonly marked by encounters with dead relatives.
What Near-Death and Psychedelic Experiences Reveal about Human Consciousness | The New York Academy of Sciences

Researchers have concluded that NDEs may include some or all of the following twelve elements:
6. Encountering other beings, either mystical beings or deceased relatives or friends
Virtually all beings encountered during NDEs are deceased at the time of the NDE, and most are deceased relatives. By contrast, in dreams or hallucinations the beings encountered are much more likely to be living. This is another distinguishing feature between NDEs and dreams or hallucinations

And heres something that makes NDE even more of a destinction from something imagined or dreamed
Later in their lives some NDErs recognize a picture of a deceased relative as the being they encountered in their NDE. The relative may have died years or even decades before the NDEr was born.

If NDEs were only a product of brain function, then one would expect that beings encountered during the NDE would be those most recently familiar to the NDEr. In other words, one would expect NDErs would most likely see people recalled from recent memory, such as the emergency personnel who helped them or the bank teller they had made a transaction with right before being hit by a car.

Instead, they see friends and relatives who have died, in many cases people they haven’t thought about in years or even decades. The percentage of deceased individuals seen during NDEs, especially deceased blood relatives, is so high that I believe that encounters with deceased loved ones are not the random products of a frightened, confused, or dying brain but instead are a strong line of evidence for the reality of near-death experiences.
http://www.evreninsirlari.net/dosyalar/145_s04_02.pdf

The Kelly study found that 95 percent of the deceased individuals encountered were relatives, while only 5 percent were friends or acquaintances. Only 4 percent of the NDErs in the study met beings who were alive at the time of the NDE. Other studies have shown that in dreams or hallucinations, the beings encountered are much more likely to be people who are still living.

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/KEL13-NDEwithReports-of-Meeting-Deceased-People.pdf

The problem is that people who believe that NDE's are proof of an afterlife are naturally going to focus on the stories that fit that narrative.

But the study was the largest study so it gathered large amount of data which showed that certain experiences were more prevelent for NDE compared to non NDE experience such as lived memories, dreams or imagined experienmces. In other words there was a science behind correlating the data rather than someone choosing to focus on particular narratives.

But the fact is that they prove absolutely nothing except that dreams/hallucinations/NDE's will sometimes include living people and sometimes include deceased people. Proponents of NDE's simply seem to be reading more into the stories than is warranted.

As mentioned tests were done to differentiate dreams and hallucinations from NDE including brain testing which showed different brain activities associated with dreams. hallucinations and imagined events.

In other words what ever was happening for NDE'ers it was real and even more real that real life experiences. This is not a hallmark of dreams, hallucinations or imagination which tend to be forgetable, inconsistent, recognised by the experiencer as not being real (we know when we dream) for example) or find it hard to recall details of dreams or imaginations. Whereas NDE have rich detail and memory.

“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study
Findings showed that NDE memories were similar to real memories in terms of detail richness, self-referential, and emotional information. Moreover, NDE memories were significantly different from memories of imagined events.

The pattern of EEG results indicated that real memory recall was positively associated with two memory-related frequency bands, i.e., high alpha and gamma. NDE memories were linked with theta band, a well-known marker of episodic memory. It is notable that the EEG pattern of correlations for NDE memory recall differed from the pattern for memories of imagined events. In conclusion, our findings suggest that, at a phenomenological level, NDE memories cannot be considered equivalent to imagined memories, and at a neural level, NDE memories are stored as episodic memories of events experienced in a peculiar state of consciousness.

From a phenomenological perspective, it could be inferred that NDE memories showed high similarities with real memories, and profound dissimilarities from imagined memories. NDErs who participated in our study always considered their NDE memories far superior to their real memories from all points of view, despite the efforts of the experimenter to invite them in finding a comparable event that happened in real life. All participants who lived NDEs described them as the most powerful, intense, vivid, important, and founding experience of their life.
“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study

Which is opposed to imagination, dreams or hallucinations which are confued, fragmented, easily forgetable, hard to recall and lack richness and detail.

So whatever is happening its certainly real for the experincer to the point that its more real than everyday experience and actually impacts on their life with dramtaic changes. Unlike some imaginative or dream like state would do as the experiencer realizes its not real enough to warrant such thinking. I know I certainly don't act of dreams, hallucinations or my imaganition to make changes in my life.

 

[partinobodycular]

Actually according to the studioes I linked its not based on selective memories but clear and vivid experiences whose detail have been verified.

That's not what I mean by 'selective memories'... I'm talking about your selective memories, and the tendency of proponents of NDE's to focus only on those cases that fit their narrative. So you reach the erroneous conclusion that a disproportionate number of NDE's involve meeting deceased loved ones rather than living ones, but studies show that this simply isn't true. The fact is that a very, very, very small proportion of people who suffer cardiac arrest are ever going to experience talking to dead loved ones. It just doesn't happen as often as you seem to think it does. It's just that what does happen is that people tend to talk about them more, hence they seem prevalent, when they're actually not.

At least for the articles I linked for which one was the largest study on the topic this showed that for NDE'ers most has met deceased relatives

I hope that you're not referring to AWARE I or AWARE II, because for all of it's years of effort AWARE I found absolutely no cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one. Zero

Then after more years of study AWARE II found... you guessed it... zero cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one.

But what you're probably referring to is this 'study'.

Evidence of the Afterlife

Unfortunately this wasn't actually a study at all, it was simply someone gathering together a bunch of anecdotal stories and then using them to draw a number of totally illegitimate conclusions.

IT'S WORTHLESS!!!!

Easily countered with the following which suggests that meeting living loved ones is far more common than meeting deceased ones.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE

So whatever is happening its certainly real for the experincer to the point that its more real than everyday experience and actually impacts on their life with dramtaic changes.

Now this conclusion I'll grant you. Some small proportion of people who suffer a life threatening episode will experience a very vivid and realistic life altering psychological event. But I've never seen any evidence that these events aren't simply part of the natural process of dying. How realistic, or life altering a dying person perceives them to be is irrelevant. To a schizophrenic person the voices in their head may be real and life altering as well, but that doesn't mean that they exist anywhere other than in their own head.

How vivid and life altering a psychological event may be doesn't make it real, no matter how fervently you want it to.

 

[Emmawowee]

That's not what I mean by 'selective memories'... I'm talking about your selective memories, and the tendency of proponents of NDE's to focus only on those cases that fit their narrative. So you reach the erroneous conclusion that a disproportionate number of NDE's involve meeting deceased loved ones rather than living ones, but studies show that this simply isn't true. The fact is that a very, very, very small proportion of people who suffer cardiac arrest are ever going to experience talking to dead loved ones. It just doesn't happen as often as you seem to think it does. It's just that what does happen is that people tend to talk about them more, hence they seem prevalent, when they're actually not.



I hope that you're not referring to AWARE I or AWARE II, because for all of it's years of effort AWARE I found absolutely no cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one. Zero

Then after more years of study AWARE II found... you guessed it... zero cases of someone meeting a deceased loved one.

But what you're probably referring to is this 'study'.

Evidence of the Afterlife

Unfortunately this wasn't actually a study at all, it was simply someone gathering together a bunch of anecdotal stories and then using them to draw a number of totally illegitimate conclusions.

IT'S WORTHLESS!!!!

Easily countered with the following which suggests that meeting living loved ones is far more common than meeting deceased ones.

NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE



Now this conclusion I'll grant you. Some small proportion of people who suffer a life threatening episode will experience a very vivid and realistic life altering psychological event. But I've never seen any evidence that these events aren't simply part of the natural process of dying. How realistic, or life altering a dying person perceives them to be is irrelevant. To a schizophrenic person the voices in their head may be real and life altering as well, but that doesn't mean that they exist anywhere other than in their own head.

How vivid and life altering a psychological event may be doesn't make it real, no matter how fervently you want it to.

You misread that study. It said only 11% of participants had seen a living person. (Search “living” on the document) By “non deceased person cases”, if you actually read more closely they mean people who just didn’t see ANY figure at all. Which in some of those cases where they see a living person it’s because of a “remote viewing” or “OBE” type phenomenon where they can see what the person is doing (Like the woman who saw her dad eating a candy bar in the hospital lobby despite the fact he’s a health nut who hated candy, and it was verified he was actually doing that at the time) And even the few cases where they see living people, it’s perfectly consistent with a spiritual worldview as it’s usually part of the “life review” aspect.

The results of AWARE II, Sam Parnia himself and others have repeatedly stated that these experiences are not dreams, delusions, or hallucinations.
You can choose to think they’re lies or whatever, but please avoid spreading misinformation or claiming you know more than neuroscientists.This is an unexplained, unexplored part of human consciousness.

NDE Skeptical Arguments: A Review and Response

AWARE II also had a very small sample size due to a large number of the patients dying. I look forward to seeing the results of future studies. These studies are so recent because for years the phenomena was mocked, and now it’s being formally studied.

 

[Bradskii]

It seems strange that people are making long term changes, becoming different people, gaining a belief in the after life and even God due to a delusion or dream which are seen as unreal. People would not make such profound changes based on something classed as unreal or imagined according to skeptics.

I didn't say that simply having a dream caused you to change your life. I said coming close to death does that. I would have thought that to be obvious. That some people have a memory of some dream/hallucination as their body went through an extreme experience as well is irrelevant to that pschological change. It's realising that life is extremely tenuous that changes you. Not a dream that you had about a chat with your late great aunt Elsie.

 

[Emmawowee]

Here’s their current hypothesis. It’s a very neutral hypothesis, and while it makes no sense since the spikes shown weren’t associated with patients who had NDEs during cardiac arrest, most people know they’re trying to “associate” it with brain activity so they don’t get accused of “woo” by the dogmatic scientific community or lose funding.

Similar thing happened with the big bang. Atheist scientists kept calling it woo and feverently trying to “debunk” it until it was proven true (because it implied creationism) and I see a similar thing happening here

 

[partinobodycular]

You misread that study. It said only 11% of participants had seen a living person. (Search “living” on the document) By “non deceased person cases”, if you actually read more closely they mean people who just didn’t see ANY figure at all.

The first thing that you have to keep in mind with this study is that it's heavily biased. It's participants are drawn to it specifically because of it's research focus... which is "NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES WITH REPORTS OF MEETING DECEASED PEOPLE"

There are presently 553 NDE cases ( from the United States,
Canada, and Australia ) in our collection. These cases were nearly
all self-reported by people who had read or otherwise heard about
our research.

Of those original 553 NDE cases 74 cases involved deceased people, and 479 cases didn't. What's odd is that all 74 deceased people cases were included in the final study*, while 279 of the non-deceased people cases were excluded because of a lack of medical records, although half of the deceased people cases also lacked medical records but were none-the-less included.

*Note Table 3 in your above post.

Thus there seems to be a very pronounced bias both in the original recruitment and in the final selection of participants.

So if you have a study whose stated area of focus is NDE's with reports of meeting deceased people is it really surprising that you would get a preponderance of meetings with deceased people?