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General anesthesia and consciousness

ViaCrucis

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NDEs are literally the same exact sort of thing as abiogenesis, meaning we have no reason to believe that abiogenesis is naturally how life began just as we have no naturalistic explanation for NDEs.

They aren't. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis for how life may have originated on earth. But it's just that, a hypothesis. We don't know how life got its start.

Do you accept abiogenesis, or do you think God created life?

I don't have any opinions about abiogenesis. Even if true, God still created life--if abiogenesis is how God did that, then great; if there was some other mechanism for how life originated, great.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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partinobodycular

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Yeah, the solution would be to get the book if you are interested in this topic enough to actually study it.

So of all of the thousands of documented cases, the only one that you feel confident in defending is one that I have to buy a book to get any information about. This strongly suggests to me that there are no well documented cases of NDE's being anything other than perfectly natural phenomena.

Thank you for your participation.
 
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All Becomes New

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They aren't. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis for how life may have originated on earth. But it's just that, a hypothesis. We don't know how life got its start.



I don't have any opinions about abiogenesis. Even if true, God still created life--if abiogenesis is how God did that, then great; if there was some other mechanism for how life originated, great.

-CryptoLutheran

Exactly! It's literally the same exact thing as NDEs. Yet you think that God created life. So what is your reason for thinking all NDEs have a naturalistic explanation?
 
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All Becomes New

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So of all of the thousands of documented cases, the only one that you feel confident in defending is one that I have to buy a book to get any information about. This strongly suggests to me that there are no well documented cases of NDE's being anything other than perfectly natural phenomena.

Thank you for your participation.

You can literally investigate ANY of the NDEs that don't have a naturalistic explanation to them. There are about 300 of them which are all highly evidenced ones. You don't want to investigate it. You want an easy answer. And when I give you an easy answer, you deny it and say you should be able to investigate it. So which is it? Do you want to investigate the topic or not?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Exactly! It's literally the same exact thing as NDEs.

Explain how.

Yet you think that God created life. So what is your reason for thinking all NDEs have a naturalistic explanation?

I also believe that God created me in my mother's womb. But I'm pretty sure my mom and dad did the hanky panky and that I got my start as a fusion of gametes. Though I'd prefer not to think about that too much.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Explain how.

How many times do I need to say this: Some of the NDEs have no naturalistic explanation. They've TRIED and FAILED to find a natural explanation for them. The SAME is true for abiogenesis. We don't have any reason to think life began by chemical processes. The odds of it happening naturally are so ridiculous that you literally cannot think in those kinds of numbers. They are the same because they cannot be naturally explained. The resurrection and other miracles cannot be naturally explained. So unless you want to say that all miracles and the creation of life (and the universe, BTW would also fit), and NDEs are all natural events that we have no natural explanation for, you are being REALLY inconsistent.
 
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partinobodycular

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You can literally investigate ANY of the NDEs that don't have a naturalistic explanation to them.

Give me........ ONE .........please, otherwise any further claims that you make will be worthless to me, because you refuse to debate in good faith.

And without that all your self-righteous claims about God have no value at all.... to anybody.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How many times do I need to say this: Some of the NDEs have no naturalistic explanation.

That you know of.

They've TRIED and FAILED to find a natural explanation for them.

On this we'd be going back to our former conversation about hearsay--you believe stories without supporting evidence. I don't. There's no need to go back to that.

The SAME is true for abiogenesis. We don't have any reason to think life began by chemical processes.

It's a scientific hypothesis. The scientific method relies on naturalistic methodology. I'm not seeing where there is a sameness here.

The odds of it happening naturally are so ridiculous that you literally cannot think in those kinds of numbers.

We have precisely one example of life existing anywhere in the entire universe. There is simply no way to determine the odds of life happening with a sample size of 1.

However life got its start, it did. That we know for sure.

It could have come about through non-living chemical processes. We don't know--but it's a hypothesis.

They are the same because they cannot be naturally explained.

Abiogenesis would be a natural explanation.

The resurrection and other miracles cannot be naturally explained.

And they aren't the purview of science. I believe in the resurrection and the miracles of Christ on the basis of my faith.

So unless you want to say that all miracles and the creation of life (and the universe, BTW would also fit), and NDEs are all natural events that we have no natural explanation for, you are being REALLY inconsistent.

I have no reason to believe in NDE's as a matter of faith.
And I have no reason to believe in NDE's as a matter of science.

Which is what I said when I first joined this thread many pages ago. And that continues to be the case.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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All Becomes New

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Give me........ ONE .........please, otherwise any further claims that you make will be worthless to me, because you refuse to debate in good faith.

And without that all your self-righteous claims about God have no value at all.... to anybody.

I've given you one.

Your interpretation of it is, "Well, it's not online anywhere besides the book, so it must not be in the book either."

You are literally not even looking at the sources I am posting.

Here, it gives the person's name and everything (Maria).

Blackmore considers the famous tennis shoe report of social worker Kimberly
Clark Sharp to be one of the most potentially important cases of remote viewing.
Maria, a heart attack victim, reported an NDE in which she saw a number of
confirmed items both in and out of Harborview Hospital in Seattle. But more
interestingly, she told Sharp that she especially concentrated on a single item-
a tennis shoe-located on a hospital ledge around the corner of the building she
entered and currently occupied. Maria explained that the shoe had a worn little
toe and the lace was under the heel. After unsuccessful attempts to find the object,
Sharp finally located and retrieved the shoe.

What is Blackmore's conclusion concerning this particular claim of remote
viewing? She declares that it would be "extremely important" if it were true.
However, "[Tlhis is, sadly, one of those cases for which I have been unable to
get any further information." Thus she "can only consider it as fascinating but
unsubstantiated" (p. 128). But equally unfortunately, Blackmore does not specify
what it would take to convince her of the objective nature of Maria's NDE (or
whether any data could do so).

I attempted to supplement Sharp's earlier account and discovered some in-
teresting details. Maria had just arrived in Seattle and Sharp had interviewed her
the exact same day as this NDE. Maria had never been in the area of the hospital
where the shoe had been located, the shoe could not be seen from the ground, and
the hospital was not surrounded by any nearby buildings of sufficient height.
Concerning the tennis shoe itself, neither the worn toe nor the position of the
lace could be seen from the window through which Sharp had retrieved it. Further,
Maria had identified it as a big, blue shoe. She was correct in all her details, from
the toe (further described by Sharp as "down to threads"), to the lace under the
heel, to the large size, to the blue canvas exterior. Sharp even brought it to Maria's
room and held it behind her back while Maria described it one more time before the
object was shown to her! Maria was later interviewed by several other researchers.
Sharp communicated regularly with Maria over a three-year period, when contact
was broken during Sharp's leave of absence.

It would seem that few would be prepared to question Sharp's veracity, but
this as well as Maria's testimony, was repeatedly confirmed in later interviews by
others. Besides, Maria provided at least enough data to find the shoe in the first
place! It would certainly seem that the remote viewing of an object during an NDE
is the explanation that best accounts for the data.

The same exact source from here: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/58820073.pdf

You are the one who is arguing in bad faith. You are not even looking into the things I am saying yourself. Again, you want easy answers and when I provide easy answers you demand that you should be able to look into them. So go email Kimberly Clark Sharp or others who talked to Maria.
 
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All Becomes New

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Abiogenesis would be a natural explanation.

Yes, that does not have any evidence for it.

And they aren't the purview of science. I believe in the resurrection and the miracles of Christ on the basis of my faith.

You give Christians a bad name with your blind faith.

I have no reason to believe in NDE's as a matter of faith.

What is your faith based on? Testimony. That's not blind faith. What is the magic in the water of your faith? Why not believe in any other religion on the basis of faith? Why is it you only believe in Christianity on faith?
 
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Bradskii

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How many times do I need to say this: Some of the NDEs have no naturalistic explanation. They've TRIED and FAILED to find a natural explanation for them. The SAME is true for abiogenesis. We don't have any reason to think life began by chemical processes. The odds of it happening naturally are so ridiculous that you literally cannot think in those kinds of numbers. They are the same because they cannot be naturally explained. The resurrection and other miracles cannot be naturally explained. So unless you want to say that all miracles and the creation of life (and the universe, BTW would also fit), and NDEs are all natural events that we have no natural explanation for, you are being REALLY inconsistent.
What caused the thunder. Dunno. Ah, it must have been supernatural.
How did abiogenesis happen. Dunno. Ah, it must have been supernatural.
Here are some NDEs - what's the explanation for them. Dunno. Ah...wait...we are beginning to see a similarity regarding the conclusions.

In the meantime, I'm going to do a search on that last example mentioned. See what I can find.
 
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Bradskii

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And...we have things to report.
You are the one who is arguing in bad faith. You are not even looking into the things I am saying yourself. Again, you want easy answers and when I provide easy answers you demand that you should be able to look into them. So go email Kimberly Clark Sharp or others who talked to Maria.
I've done a quick search on this. And we have the detailed report of someone who actually did a lot more than email Kimberly. They went to see her and interviewed her.

Now first up let us say that this is the epitome of NDEs. This is a very well known case and people put it forward continuously as a classic and irrefutable example of a veridical Near Death Experience (and in passing, has anyone come across the word 'veridical' in a forum post that wasn't associated with NDEs?). This needs to be considered as one of the best examples for proof of the experience it's possible to have. Books have been written about it and over the years in many forums I have been presented with this multiple times. I'll be taking details from this report from now on in to save anyone from having to read the whole thing, although I can't cut and paste as it's a pdf: https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/1996/07/22165033/p27.pdf

First up is a quote by the NDE researchers Ring and Lawrence: 'Maria's inexplicable sighting....has the power to arrest the skeptic's argument in mid-sentence'. Well, let's see.

A couple of guys from Skeptical Enquirer, Hayden Ebbern and Sean Mulligan travelled to Seattle to interview Kimberly. They were unable to contact Maria (who had the NDE) and no-one they talked to had any records of her. The details of the NDE were taken from Kimberly's 1984 report of the matter and face to face discussions.

Maria had a cardiac arrest at one point in the hospital following her admission with heart problems and was revived. She later told Kimberly a few things that she said she saw, specifically a tennis shoe on a third floor ledge. Kimberly said she went outside and couldn't see it but it was just visible through a couple of windows if she pressed her face up close to the glass.

Ebbern and Mulligan went to the building and placed a shoe where Kimberly had said it had been. On the ground floor, they could see it quite clearly. And in fact, because of recent construction, they had to stand further back than would have been possible earlier. A week later when they returned to the site, the shoe had been removed. Showing that it was plainly obvious to at least one other person.

Kimberly had said that is was next to impossible to see from any of the third floor rooms (where Maria was kept) but they found just the opposite, and it was clearly visible simply by standing in her room. In fact it was visible as soon as one entered the room.

So this tennis shoe was plainly visible from both inside and outside the building, certainly from Maria's room and there is a strong likelihood that someone at some point would have mentioned it. It was, obviously, an odd thing to see on a third floor ledge. It is quite possible, if not probable, that Maria could have heard anyone making a comment about this and then repeating it as some form of recall that she had.

What about the reports and notes that Kimberly had taken? There were none. But this was reported soon after the event so someone might have been able to confirm some of the details? No, Kimberly didn't report it until after seven years after the event. So as was said in the article, there was no way possible of knowing if Kimberly had inadvertently asked any leading questions or had prompted Maria in some way as to her answers. There is no way to know that anything Maria said she recalled that didn't fit the facts wasn't simply ignored or forgotten.

But we can check the details of the shoe? No, Kimberly said 'it would be too much trouble to look for it'. Maybe it was in her garage.

Did she lie? I doubt it. Did she remember everything accurately? I doubt it. Did Maria give an accurate account of the details? We'll never know. Was she prompted by the line of questioning? Quite possibly. Did Kimberly have a confirmational bias? Well, we all do. Is Kimberly exhibiting an emotional attachment to the spiritual aspects of this event? Well, she became a minor celebrity after this (as I say, quoted in many forum discussions and articles on NDEs) and is writing yet another book.

Ebbern and Mulligan attended a meeting of the NDE support group that Kimberly had set up in the area. They said it had all the atmosphere of a revival meeting. Critical questions were 'decidedly unwelcome'.

Now knowing all that (and there's more in the article) are we in any way convinced that this was a bona fide example of an NDE? Well, Maria might have had one. But did she actually see what she is reported to have seen? I think that having someone actually attend the site and do a critical examination of the facts, the answer to that is almost certainly no. At very best, it must be plainlystated that there are serious doubts about the case. And, I will repeat, this is held up as an example of an undeniable event that 'has the power to arrest the skeptic's argument in mid-sentence'.

I think not.
 
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Bradskii

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Not true. We know exactly what causes thunder.
That's my point. If you nominate something as having to be super natural because you don't know at the time what the natural explanation is, then you are making an error in logic. And if you nominate something as having to be super natural because of evidence which you don't check for its reliability then you are exhibiting a lack of rigour.
 
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All Becomes New

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And...we have things to report.

I've done a quick search on this. And we have the detailed report of someone who actually did a lot more than email Kimberly. They went to see her and interviewed her.

Now first up let us say that this is the epitome of NDEs. This is a very well known case and people put it forward continuously as a classic and irrefutable example of a veridical Near Death Experience (and in passing, has anyone come across the word 'veridical' in a forum post that wasn't associated with NDEs?). This needs to be considered as one of the best examples for proof of the experience it's possible to have. Books have been written about it and over the years in many forums I have been presented with this multiple times. I'll be taking details from this report from now on in to save anyone from having to read the whole thing, although I can't cut and paste as it's a pdf: https://cdn.centerforinquiry.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/1996/07/22165033/p27.pdf

First up is a quote by the NDE researchers Ring and Lawrence: 'Maria's inexplicable sighting....has the power to arrest the skeptic's argument in mid-sentence'. Well, let's see.

A couple of guys from Skeptical Enquirer, Hayden Ebbern and Sean Mulligan travelled to Seattle to interview Kimberly. They were unable to contact Maria (who had the NDE) and no-one they talked to had any records of her. The details of the NDE were taken from Kimberly's 1984 report of the matter and face to face discussions.

Maria had a cardiac arrest at one point in the hospital following her admission with heart problems and was revived. She later told Kimberly a few things that she said she saw, specifically a tennis shoe on a third floor ledge. Kimberly said she went outside and couldn't see it but it was just visible through a couple of windows if she pressed her face up close to the glass.

Ebbern and Mulligan went to the building and placed a shoe where Kimberly had said it had been. On the ground floor, they could see it quite clearly. And in fact, because of recent construction, they had to stand further back than would have been possible earlier. A week later when they returned to the site, the shoe had been removed. Showing that it was plainly obvious to at least one other person.

Kimberly had said that is was next to impossible to see from any of the third floor rooms (where Maria was kept) but they found just the opposite, and it was clearly visible simply by standing in her room. In fact it was visible as soon as one entered the room.

So this tennis shoe was plainly visible from both inside and outside the building, certainly from Maria's room and there is a strong likelihood that someone at some point would have mentioned it. It was, obviously, an odd thing to see on a third floor ledge. It is quite possible, if not probable, that Maria could have heard anyone making a comment about this and then repeating it as some form of recall that she had.

What about the reports and notes that Kimberly had taken? There were none. But this was reported soon after the event so someone might have been able to confirm some of the details? No, Kimberly didn't report it until after seven years after the event. So as was said in the article, there was no way possible of knowing if Kimberly had inadvertently asked any leading questions or had prompted Maria in some way as to her answers. There is no way to know that anything Maria said she recalled that didn't fit the facts wasn't simply ignored or forgotten.

But we can check the details of the shoe? No, Kimberly said 'it would be too much trouble to look for it'. Maybe it was in her garage.

Did she lie? I doubt it. Did she remember everything accurately? I doubt it. Did Maria give an accurate account of the details? We'll never know. Was she prompted by the line of questioning? Quite possibly. Did Kimberly have a confirmational bias? Well, we all do. Is Kimberly exhibiting an emotional attachment to the spiritual aspects of this event? Well, she became a minor celebrity after this (as I say, quoted in many forum discussions and articles on NDEs) and is writing yet another book.

Ebbern and Mulligan attended a meeting of the NDE support group that Kimberly had set up in the area. They said it had all the atmosphere of a revival meeting. Critical questions were 'decidedly unwelcome'.

Now knowing all that (and there's more in the article) are we in any way convinced that this was a bona fide example of an NDE? Well, Maria might have had one. But did she actually see what she is reported to have seen? I think that having someone actually attend the site and do a critical examination of the facts, the answer to that is almost certainly no. At very best, it must be plainlystated that there are serious doubts about the case. And, I will repeat, this is held up as an example of an undeniable event that 'has the power to arrest the skeptic's argument in mid-sentence'.

I think not.

You realize at this point people have been trying for years to debunk the theory of NDEs? I mean, of course, you understand that. So it is quite difficult for you to come here and tell me it is not likely that Maria had an NDE on the basis of... someone's testimony? And to add, I read much of the article and learned some things. First of all, they give zero thought whatsoever to the hard problem of consciousness. Secondly, they are upfront right away about their own biases against anything supernatural. Third, the best they can do is say, "Perhaps, maybe, possibly, could have happened," etc.
 
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That's my point. If you nominate something as having to be super natural because you don't know at the time what the natural explanation is, then you are making an error in logic. And if you nominate something as having to be super natural because of evidence which you don't check for its reliability then you are exhibiting a lack of rigour.

Right, I'm saying there is such a thing as an unhealthy bias towards explaining everything naturally. It's called the science of the gaps. "We will figure it out some day."
 
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Bradskii

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You realize at this point people have been trying for years to debunk the theory of NDEs? I mean, of course, you understand that. So it is quite difficult for you to come here and tell me it is not likely that Maria had an NDE on the basis of... someone's testimony?

This is telling. Because it's very defensive. As I said above, it's very possible that Maria had an NDE. That is, an experience that she had when near death. They are very common. Very many people have them. But when you plainly imply that these are supernatural events then people have something else with which to deal. So no. People have not been trying to debunk NDEs. They have been investigating claims, such as Maria's, which imply a supernatural component and trying to verify them.
And to add, I read much of the article and learned some things.
This is also telling. Because it's obviously the first time you've read it whereas I was familiar with it from a long time back. You are keen on telling people that they should investigate the claims for NDEs. Here's a book. Here's an article. Go study it before you comment. So you are expecting some of us to investigate the stories that promote the spiritual aspect of NDEs but you've plainly spent zero time checking anything that might discount it. Let's face it, it wasn't difficult to find. You only had to Google 'nde maria shoe' and it's the second item.
First of all, they give zero thought whatsoever to the hard problem of consciousness.
Which is completely inconsequential to what's being discussed.
Secondly, they are upfront right away about their own biases against anything supernatural. Third, the best they can do is say, "Perhaps, maybe, possibly, could have happened," etc.
Yes, they are letting us know so there's nothing hidden. Which is not a problem. I'm not sure if the fact that Kimberly was obviously biased has been mentioned. But now you know she is. So we'll all take that into consideration as well. But...are you biased? Well you said above that it's not valid to suggest she didn't have an NDE because of...someone's testimony. But it's one person's testimony that you are relying on. So I think the bias cancels out and we should just look at the available evidence.

At which point we can look at the facts as noted and reach a decision. That there appears to be a logical and natural everyday explanation for this. Accepting that the report of this occurrence wasn't released until 7 years after the event. Accepting that there are very serious doubts about the main aspect of the story. Accepting that we are getting all the facts second hand from a woman who has a clear need for this to be as she stated.

All in all, this doesn't come any where near being close to being a great example of the supernatural aspects of NDEs. In fact, it can be considered, now that we have a lot more information, to be an extremely bad example.

And as I said, this is one of the top examples that you have. I won't say that you've put all your eggs in one basket, but if this is the best that you have then you have failed. Badly.
 
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Bradskii

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Right, I'm saying there is such a thing as an unhealthy bias towards explaining everything naturally. It's called the science of the gaps. "We will figure it out some day."
Well, we figured out some very good reasons why Maria wasn't floating about a hospital in her surgery gown checking out footwear. So no gap there. Which goes to show that those who claim an event is 100% supernatural can look foolish when there evidence produced to the contrary.

I would very strongly suggest a touch more of the conditional tense in exercises like this. I few 'might have' 'could have' and perhaps have' will leave an open for a retreat from certainty and save that embarrassment. As I said 'Well, Maria might have had one.'

See my Voltaire quote beneath this sentence.
 
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All Becomes New

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And as I said, this is one of the top examples that you have. I won't say that you've put all your eggs in one basket, but if this is the best that you have then you have failed. Badly.

Never claimed anything of the sort. You are the one who seems to think I am putting so much importance on this one example. I gave the example because it was listed in a document I had already linked.

But if you have a mind to debunk these things, you are free to check out this other resource I linked earlier:

 
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Well, we figured out some very good reasons why Maria wasn't floating about a hospital in her surgery gown checking out footwear.

You should follow your own advice when you say,

I would very strongly suggest a touch more of the conditional tense in exercises like this. I few 'might have' 'could have' and perhaps have' will leave an open for a retreat from certainty and save that embarrassment.
 
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