General anesthesia and consciousness

[Bradskii]

Never claimed anything of the sort. You are the one who seems to think I am putting so much importance on this one example. I gave the example because it was listed in a document I had already linked.

But if you have a mind to debunk these things, you are free to check out this other resource I linked earlier:

NCBI | NLM | NIH

Ah, so the one that's considered one of the top examples (even if you didn't expressly say so) is debunked so we skip discussing that and throw another one at the wall. Is that going to be the MO? It's not a game I'm keen on playing.

You say email the girl. You say buy the book! It will all become clear! But we didn't need to personally do that. Someone actually did the work for us. So is there a limit on this? How many before we say done and dusted.

So, no. I won't address any others until you address the one where we should have bought the book. You need to come to terms with that one first.

 

[Bradskii]

You should follow your own advice when you say,

See the last line in that post. I do follow my own advice. You should follow it as well.

 

[All Becomes New]

Ah, so the one that's considered one of the top examples (even if you didn't expressly say so) is debunked so we skip discussing that and throw another one at the wall. Is that going to be the MO? It's not a game I'm keen on playing.

You say email the girl. You say buy the book! It will all become clear! But we didn't need to personally do that. Someone actually did the work for us. So is there a limit on this? How many before we say done and dusted.

So, no. I won't address any others until you address the one where we should have bought the book. You need to come to terms with that one first.

As I told someone else, I only need one example of an NDE to be a legitimate supernatural experience for them all to come into question. But you've been in the thread for like an hour so I'm sure you are familiar with all the studies that have been posted by now. It's easy to skirt the issue and say, "Well, you are just going to keep giving things to debunk, aren't you?" But really, all I need is one for most of the NDEs to come into question whether they are supernatural.

See the last line in that post. I do follow my own advice. You should follow it as well.

No, I was talking about you being more certain than the article you linked yourself.

 

[Bradskii]

As I told someone else, I only need one example of an NDE to be a legitimate supernatural experience...

What on earth is a 'legitimate supernatural experience'? One for which there is no apparent natural explanation? Well, a couple of hours ago you would have included Maria's experience in that. You actually thought there was no natural explanation for that (because you spent no time in checking). So that would have filled your criteria. But you were wrong.

So you're batting 0 for 1 right now.

And as I have been explaining to you, there is no proof available. The very best that you will have is simply the absence of a natural explanation. Which, as you have just discovered, isn't always very hard to find. So the very best that you can say, with any example, is that 'there appears to be no natural explanation so this could be a supernatural event'. That's it. Nothing else is logically possible.

And by the same token, all you will get from me is that, with any example, 'there appears to be a natural explanation for this, so this doesn't appear to be supernatural'.

So how about you actually toss another specific example complete with what you think is the evidence and we can examine it. That last link you gave has none. It's just a list of NDE types that the good doctor has got from his website. A list of self reported experiences that have next to no details whatsoever.

 

[All Becomes New]

there is no proof available.

There is no proof for almost everything. That does not stop atheists from trying to debunk what religious people believe.

And by the same token, all you will get from me is that, with any example, 'there appears to be a natural explanation for this, so this doesn't appear to be supernatural'.

How sure are you that there is always a naturalistic explanation? 60%? 80%? 90%? What percentage would you put on it?

 

[Bradskii]

There is no proof for almost everything. That does not stop atheists from trying to debunk what religious people believe.

If you say something debunkable then it will be debunked. If it's in this part of the forum anyway. As you saw earlier.

How sure are you that there is always a naturalistic explanation? 60%? 80%? 90%? What percentage would you put on it?

Doubt is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one. I said that you should have read that. Let me put it like this...

Belief is like a flywheel. It's stationary until someone gives you some evidence for that belief. Let's say it's a belief that there is no supernatural aspect to the world. So quite a long time ago, that flywheel started to turn in the direction of that belief. This was when I started doubting how I had been brought up as regards Christianity. And the older I got and the more that I read and the more that I experienced, the faster that flywheel turned.

This process has been going on for decades. And I have not read or experienced anything that has slowed that flywheel down. In fact, it is still speeding up to some extent.

Now there is nothing that says that flywheel can't be slowed. Or even be stopped. Or even be reversed. And the chances of that happening after so long, after a lifetime's experience and a great deal of reading, is not impossible. But it's pretty slim. Get my drift?

The problem that you have is as you explained earlier. If something is shown to be entirely natural then you'll ignore it (as you did with Maria's story) and wait for the next example. You won't allow it to slow your flywheel. There is no room for doubt to creep into your world.

 

[All Becomes New]

The problem that you have is as you explained earlier. If something is shown to be entirely natural then you'll ignore it (as you did with Maria's story) and wait for the next example.

How could you possibly know what I thought as I was reading the article you linked? "Could have happened" is not convincing to me when we have so many other examples and you would have to do the same thing with all of them.

You won't allow it to slow your flywheel. There is no room for doubt to creep into your world.

That's not true in the slightest. I did give credence to the article you linked as much as I should have. I have never staked the entirety of NDEs on one person's perspective they gave 7 years after the fact.

If you are interested, I can PM you my testimony so you know why I am a Christian today. I used to be an atheist like yourself. Read the "About me" section of my profile for more. If you want to go all the way, you can PM me and I will give you a link to an article I wrote that recounts the experience that changed my life forever. Of course, I don't expect it it actually convince you, but it should at least show you why I now consider myself a committed Christian.

 

[Bradskii]

How could you possibly know what I thought as I was reading the article you linked? "Could have happened" is not convincing to me when we have so many other examples and you would have to do the same thing with all of them.

What you didn't say was 'Hey, I hadn't seen that article. If it's true I guess that it casts some doubt on the story'. As you say, you have plenty more to offer. But you won't readily admit that this one is not all you originally thought it was. But let's move on to the next one. Give me the details. I'm still waiting.

That's not true in the slightest. I did give credence to the article you linked as much as I should have. I have never staked the entirety of NDEs on one person's perspective they gave 7 years after the fact.

But you had to wait until someone else did the work of discounting it because you thought it was rock solid. When it is you that should be doing that work. It's you that should be rigorously checking the evidence, not demanding that we all 'buy the book and check it out yourself'.

If you are interested, I can PM you my testimony so you know why I am a Christian today.

No. I am not the slightest bit interested. All I want from you is your next best example of an NDE, complete with evidence. Whenever you are ready...

 

[All Becomes New]

No. I am not the slightest bit interested. All I want from you is your next best example of an NDE, complete with evidence. Whenever you are ready...

Then you are not really interested in Christianity. So, why are you here?

 

[Bradskii]

Then you are not really interested in Christianity.

No, I'm just not the slightest bit interested in your personal path to it. Now...what was your next example of an NDE? With evidence, please. So we can check it.

 

[All Becomes New]

No, I'm just not the slightest bit interested in your personal path to it.

Why not?

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

If you say something debunkable then it will be debunked. If it's in this part of the forum anyway. As you saw earlier.

Doubt is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one. I said that you should have read that. Let me put it like this...

Belief is like a flywheel. It's stationary until someone gives you some evidence for that belief. Let's say it's a belief that there is no supernatural aspect to the world. So quite a long time ago, that flywheel started to turn in the direction of that belief. This was when I started doubting how I had been brought up as regards Christianity. And the older I got and the more that I read and the more that I experienced, the faster that flywheel turned.

This process has been going on for decades. And I have not read or experienced anything that has slowed that flywheel down. In fact, it is still speeding up to some extent.

Now there is nothing that says that flywheel can't be slowed. Or even be stopped. Or even be reversed. And the chances of that happening after so long, after a lifetime's experience and a great deal of reading, is not impossible. But it's pretty slim. Get my drift?

The problem that you have is as you explained earlier. If something is shown to be entirely natural then you'll ignore it (as you did with Maria's story) and wait for the next example. You won't allow it to slow your flywheel. There is no room for doubt to creep into your world.

That is a fantastic analogy!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, that does not have any evidence for it.

Hence it is a hypothesis. But it is a scientific hypothesis because it relies on a scientific methodology.

You give Christians a bad name with your blind faith.

I regard the term "blind faith" as mere pejorative here. I do not know what your theology of faith is; but a theological conversation about faith here would be outside the scope of this board.

What is your faith based on? Testimony. That's not blind faith. What is the magic in the water of your faith? Why not believe in any other religion on the basis of faith? Why is it you only believe in Christianity on faith?

My faith, actually, isn't based on testimony. I believe the Scriptures because I have faith; I do not have faith because I believe the Scriptures.

I do not regard discussion of faith to fall into philosophical categories, it has nothing to do with reason or logic. Faith is, in that sense, entirely contrary to reason.

But, again, this is getting us into theological territory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

Faith is, in that sense, entirely contrary to reason.

So the Apostles had blind faith like you? They just had faith and this was separated from reason/evidence?

 

[All Becomes New]

I just have a question. I'm curious about the responses I will get. If anyone has an answer, I'd like to hear it. I've recently decided I will try and be open to information on both sides of the argument. But this question is nagging me that I don't think anyone actually knows. The question is why so many people have the same core experiences. I just do not understand why that would be the case. Wouldn't it be like dreaming or something if it were hallucinations? Like, why do so many people have the same core experience with NDEs? Does anyone have any theories?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I just have a question. I'm curious about the responses I will get. If anyone has an answer, I'd like to hear it. I've recently decided I will try and be open to information on both sides of the argument. But this question is nagging me that I don't think anyone actually knows. The question is why so many people have the same core experiences. I just do not understand why that would be the case. Wouldn't it be like dreaming or something if it were hallucinations? Like, why do so many people have the same core experience with NDEs? Does anyone have any theories?

Hi, when I was in the Worldwide Church of God back in the 70s and 80s there were three people who died and was brought back to life. All three of them were dead for awhile. None of them had a NDE. Why is that important? Because all three of them did not believe when you die you go to heaven or hell, you simply cease to exist until the resurrection from the dead. And, their death experiences lacked those things. I have also heard of Muslims who have had NDEs claim they have spoken with the prophet Mohammed.. I am very skeptical of that. I am consistent in my beliefs. I am likewise skeptical of Christians who have had NDEs. I plan to investigate this issue in the future. I am not able to deal with it now as I am dealing with a couple of more important issues.

 

[All Becomes New]

Hi, when I was in the Worldwide Church of God back in the 70s and 80s there were three people who died and was brought back to life. All three of them were dead for awhile. None of them had a NDE. Why is that important? Because all three of them did not believe when you die you go to heaven or hell, you simply cease to exist until the resurrection from the dead. And, their death experiences lacked those things. I have also heard of Muslims who have had NDEs claim they have spoken with the prophet Mohammed.. I am very skeptical of that. I am consistent in my beliefs. I am likewise skeptical of Christians who have had NDEs. I plan to investigate this issue in the future. I am not able to deal with it now as I am dealing with a couple of more important issues.

Thanks, but 3 people who didn't have an NDE don't say anything at all about them. One study found only about 17% of people experience an NDE. Some studies drop the number quite a bit from that.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Thanks, but 3 people who didn't have an NDE don't say anything at all about them. One study found only about 17% of people experience an NDE. Some studies drop the number quite a bit from that.

What is the sample size for that 17%? I am very curious.

 

[All Becomes New]

What is the sample size for that 17%? I am very curious.

Why does this matter?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Why does this matter?

It is just sheer unadulterated curiosity.