General anesthesia and consciousness

[Hans Blaster]

I linked something that was in a peer-reviewed journal. You didn't want to read it. So how is it my fault?

Published in *what* peer-reviewed science journal? (None).

By what noted scientist? (None, it's an essay by Gary Habermas -- who is not a scientist of any kind. He's an apologist and professor at Liberty "University".)

Do you apply the same amount of skepticism toward all academic literature? My guess is you don't and you do here because it contradicts your worldview.

 

[All Becomes New]

Published in *what* peer-reviewed science journal? (None).

By what noted scientist? (None, it's an essay by Gary Habermas -- who is not a scientist of any kind. He's an apologist and professor at Liberty "University".)

philpapers.org isn't a peer-reviewed site? That is news to me.

 

[partinobodycular]

I linked something that was in a peer-reviewed journal. You didn't want to read it. So how is it my fault?

Just a quick heads up, there's good chance that I won't read your cited paper... after watching a couple of short videos on Youtube by Mr. Habermas I quickly came to the conclusion that he has nothing of value to add to this discussion.

So I'll ask again, what do you have in the way of actual scientific evidence to support your view on NDE's?

 

[All Becomes New]

Just a quick heads up, there's good chance that I won't read your cited paper... after watching a couple of short videos on Youtube by Mr. Habermas I quickly came to the conclusion that he has nothing of value to add to this discussion.

So I'll ask again, what do you have in the way of actual scientific evidence to support your view on NDE's?

Don't pretend you are open to the evidence then.

 

[partinobodycular]

Don't pretend you are open to the evidence then.

GIVE ME SOME!!!!!!!!

Give me anything that counts as evidence... PLEASE

 

[stevevw]

When you put your head in a Faraday cage you don't go unconscious.

That doesn't mean it blocks consciousness. It only blocks electric fields. A Faraday cage for example doesn't stop the magnetic field. It may be that consciousness operates at a more fundemental level that permeates everything.

I mean if we cannot work out exactly what consciousness is yet then how can we know that a Faraday cage stops consciousness.

 

[All Becomes New]

GIVE ME SOME!!!!!!!!

Give me anything that counts as evidence... PLEASE

I linked a peer reviews source.

Is that not evidence?

 

[trophy33]

First one's what?

Besides, I'm not opposed to the idea that people are conscious during anesthesia. Maybe our whole idea of using anesthesia is ill-founded, meaning it does not do what we thought it did regarding consciousness?

I'd maintain that NDEs are not simply being unconscious, but that they are people who are clinically dead and there is no brain activity.

What happens to the first group of people who have no memories, no experience, just a total blackout like they were not existing for the period of anesthesia? From your point of view.

Also, how do you "spiritually" interpret that the connection between parts of brain causes consciousness and the disconnection of them (during anesthesia) causes consciousness to stop?

 

[All Becomes New]

What happens to the first group of people who have no memories, no experience, just a total blackout like they were not existing for the period of anesthesia? From your point of view.

IDK. I'm not a doctor. Substance dualists do not believe that the brain is completely separate from the mind (immaterial personhood). They relate to each other. It's complicated in how. I don't think anyone really knows that yet.

Also, how do you "spiritually" interpret that the connection between parts of brain causes consciousness and the disconnection of them (during anesthesia) causes consciousness to stop?

Consciousness is different from our spirit. We are not synonymous with our consciousness. At least that's my view. If our spirit is beyond words, meaning it is pre-lingual, and hence, a deeper part of us than our brain, then what exactly happens when a person is unconscious and has no brain activity is interesting and I don't think beyond what we know about NDEs that we really know much at all. Dreams are interesting, layered, and complex, but this doesn't mean that if we have no memory of perception we are not perceiving something. Whether we perceive things in our typical physical senses does not mean we are not perceiving something.

 

[trophy33]

IDK. I'm not a doctor. Substance dualists do not believe that the brain is completely separate from the mind (immaterial personhood). They relate to each other. It's complicated in how. I don't think anyone really knows that yet.



Consciousness is different from our spirit. We are not synonymous with our consciousness. At least that's my view. If our spirit is beyond words, meaning it is pre-lingual, and hence, a deeper part of us than our brain, then what exactly happens when a person is unconscious and has no brain activity is interesting and I don't think beyond what we know about NDEs that we really know much at all. Dreams are interesting, layered, and complex, but this doesn't mean that if we have no memory of perception we are not perceiving something. Whether we perceive things in our typical physical senses does not mean we are not perceiving something.

Are you saying something like "they do experience, but its not stored in the memory of the brain, therefore the blackout"?

 

[All Becomes New]

Are you saying something like "they do experience, but its not stored in the memory of the brain, therefore the blackout"?

I think I read some medical article about anesthesia talking about this... it was about a worry that people actually experience the surgery (in some sense), they just do not remember it after.

We are probably thinking about this from different angles. Whether a person is conscious is besides the point to me. They could very well be unconscious and still perceive something in the spirit world, but be absent from the body.

And it could very well be that people do experience the surgery and just have no memory of it. IDK. It's scary to think about. But there are so many things we don't know about reality.

 

[trophy33]

We are probably thinking about this from different angles. Whether a person is conscious is besides the point to me. They could very well be unconscious and still perceive something in the spirit world, but be absent from the body.

How do you perceive without consciousness?

 

[All Becomes New]

How do you perceive without consciousness?

Depends on how you define consciousness. The way I was using it was as such as when we are sleeping. But I did not limit it to that.

There are many unexplored mysteries of the universe. Whether a person has conscious awareness of their senses does not mean the person does not exist. Think quantum mechanics in a way that there is a spiritual world that may be directing things that we can't detect--like a higher dimension or dark matter or something like that. Whether we have physical senses that map onto this higher reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think the Bible makes it pretty clear that the spiritual world is more real than the physical world. And I'm not entirely sure that what we experience when we die (before the white throne judgment) can even be put into words. Lazarus was resurrected after four days and it was the common understanding of Jews at the time that a person's spirit was completely separated from their body after that amount of time. Yet Christ resurrected Lazarus even after it should not have been possible. What Lazarus experienced on the other side is not written about (unless we think Luke 16:19-31 was about the same Lazarus, which is possible). There are other similar examples such as when Christ rose a little girl from the dead and it says, "Her spirit returned to her." Again, we are not told what that person experienced on the other side. But we now have plenty of examples to work with with NDEs. Some are quite strange and others seem more concrete. What most people say who have experienced an NDE is that their experience on the other side is "more real" than this reality, confined to a body. It may be different for different people. So there may be different dynamics within the dynamics of this quantum mechanics or higher dimension idea I am talking about.

 

[Hans Blaster]

philpapers.org isn't a peer-reviewed site? That is news to me.

I have no idea. I've never heard of "philpapers". Sounds like a philosophy site. It may be peer-reviewed philosophy, but it sure ain't peer reviewed science.

 

[All Becomes New]

I have no idea. I've never heard of "philpapers". Sounds like a philosophy site. It may be peer-reviewed philosophy, but it sure ain't peer reviewed science.

Slow clap

 

[Hans Blaster]

That doesn't mean it blocks consciousness. It only blocks electric fields. A Faraday cage for example doesn't stop the magnetic field. It may be that consciousness operates at a more fundemental level that permeates everything.

There are no more fundamental forces. Specifically there are no fundamental forces that *could* interact with ordinary matter in the fashion necessary to operate meat puppets.

Strong nuclear is too short range.
Weak nuclear is too weak.
Gravity is weak and accumulates, but we already know what effect gravity is having on the body. It certainly couldn't be gravity.

There is only electromagnetic. So if there is some external manipulation or control of the body as "consciousness" it would have to be electromagnetic, so we could block it. We can't. Therefore consciousness is internal to the body.

I mean if we cannot work out exactly what consciousness is yet then how can we know that a Faraday cage stops consciousness.

Consciousness is brain tissue doing weird brain stuff. Any other forces that *could* drive it have been physically excluded.

 

[Mountainmike]

Hey, I'm old. So at this point I've looked into just about everything. The idea that NDE's can't be explained by something that the brain is doing... simply suggests that we don't know enough about what the brain is doing. It doesn't suggest a need for fanciful explanations of life after death, or grandma still existing in heaven somewhere.

But hey, all in all it's a pretty harmless idea so I say stick it in there with all the other odd things that people believe, and we'll all have a good laugh about it when we're dead... or not.

Study them first.
Then comment.
Veifiable Consciousness of places remote from the brain demonstrates they CANNOT be brain function.

 

[Mountainmike]

There are no more fundamental forces. Specifically there are no fundamental forces that *could* interact with ordinary matter in the fashion necessary to operate meat puppets.

Strong nuclear is too short range.
Weak nuclear is too weak.
Gravity is weak and accumulates, but we already know what effect gravity is having on the body. It certainly couldn't be gravity.

There is only electromagnetic. So if there is some external manipulation or control of the body as "consciousness" it would have to be electromagnetic, so we could block it. We can't. Therefore consciousness is internal to the body.


Consciousness is brain tissue doing weird brain stuff. Any other forces that *could* drive it have been physically excluded.

As I said to another poster:
Veifiable Consciousness of places remote from the brain , often when the cortex is shut down , demonstrates they CANNOT be brain function.

 

[partinobodycular]

Study them first.
Then comment.

Since you seem to have an extensive knowledge on the subject (As you do on every subject) please cite a specific example and I'll definitely look into it. Otherwise I risk spending valuable time looking for something which may not be what you're referring to.

A little help here would be nice, beyond just recommending a book to read. Thanks

 

[Larniavc]

This does not pose a problem for Christians. It poses a problem for naturalists. Why? NDEs.

Why are ndes a problem for naturalists? There are several reasons people report ndes. All naturalistic.