GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[Jazer]

I consider the prosperity gospel an abomination.

So what does it mean that God wants us to prosper?

 

[Jazer]

Indeed -- an academic degree takes work.

And they cost a lot of money. My neice just graduated and she is $50,000 in debt. Of course she is making $25 an hour, so I suppose she will manage to get it paid off.

The ones that are work are the ones where you have to take a test to get licensed by the state.

I suspect most of these unaccredited religious schools don't do loans anyway -- they seem like more of a "cash at the door" operation.

Yep, they want their money up front. That goes to show you no matter how easy you make it, there are still people who will not finish the program.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So definitions can be wrong and misleading?

Definitions can change. What was right 50 years ago can be wrong 50 years later. Once upon a time, it was right to call a Christian an 'atheist', but nowadays that is incorrect. Once upon a time, marriage was defined to be within one's race, but nowadays interracial marriages are common. Once upon a time, Jews were considered subhuman vermin, but nowadays Jews are seen as just ordinary humans. Definitions can change. Goodness knows why you find that so troublesome.

 

[Nostromo]

Here's yesterday's lovely education system:

$50,000 worth of outdated junk.

I wonder what the printing costs are for every religious text ever made.

 

[AV1611VET]

Definitions can change. What was right 50 years ago can be wrong 50 years later. Once upon a time, it was right to call a Christian an 'atheist', but nowadays that is incorrect. Once upon a time, marriage was defined to be within one's race, but nowadays interracial marriages are common. Once upon a time, Jews were considered subhuman vermin, but nowadays Jews are seen as just ordinary humans. Definitions can change. Goodness knows why you find that so troublesome.

So if it was correct to call Pluto our '9th planet' back then; was it correct to call the Jews 'subhuman vermin'?

 

[Nostromo]

Goodness knows why you find that so troublesome.

He's a literalist. Once you allow the meaning of words to change over time, as they do, you're stuffed.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wonder what the printing costs are for every religious text ever made.

For some:

 

[Wiccan_Child]

So if it was correct to call Pluto our '9th planet' back then; was it correct to call the Jews 'subhuman vermin'?

Yes. Were you a Nazi in Berlin, it would absolutely be the correct turn-of-phrase. That's simply how the Third Reich defined them. Likewise, Pluto was the 9th planet inasmuch as that was the definition of 'planet' back then - but the definition of planet, like the definition of Jew or 'subhuman vermin', has changed. The German government has changed its definition of the Jews, and the IAU has changed its definition of planet.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes. Were you a Nazi in Berlin, it would absolutely be the correct turn-of-phrase. That's simply how the Third Reich defined them. Likewise, Pluto was the 9th planet inasmuch as that was the definition of 'planet' back then - but the definition of planet, like the definition of Jew or 'subhuman vermin', has changed. The German government has changed its definition of the Jews, and the IAU has changed its definition of planet.

Um ... let's leave the Third Reich out of this, shall we?

Was 'subhuman vermin' in the Encyclopedia Britannica? or any English dictionary?

 

[Nathan Poe]

And they cost a lot of money. My neice just graduated and she is $50,000 in debt. Of course she is making $25 an hour, so I suppose she will manage to get it paid off.

You get what you pay for.

Yep, they want their money up front.

That's how con artists work.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Was 'subhuman vermin' in the Encyclopedia Britannica? or any English dictionary?

Wasn't explicitly defined in the Bible either, although it has no difficulty using non-Jews as examples.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wasn't explicitly defined in the Bible either, although it has no difficulty using non-Jews as examples.

I think I'll just take his point with a grain of sand and let it go at that.

 

[mzungu]

AV, For the last time I shall explain it to you: Pluto has been redefined to DWARF PLANET. This redefinition is more accurate as Pluto is too small to be a full fledged planet and too big to be an asteroid. I simply fail to understand why you are so obsessed with pluto when all that happened was it was given a more ACCURATE definition. Science is becoming more accurate in measurements by the day and just like all measurements become more accurate so too will the measured objects be more accurately measured and if need be redefined.

Let me give you an example: All humans are humans yet we define humans into physical categories such as "Tall", "Short" "Pygmy" etc. This does not mean that all these human types cease to be humans.

The earth did not cease to exist when it was redefined from "FLAT" TO "SPHERE". By the way did you know that Pluto has 4 moons of which one of them called Charon is larger than Pluto itself. This was lately discovered by the Hubble telescope:

Pluto has four known moons. The largest, Charon, is proportionally larger, compared to its primary, than any other satellite of a known planet or dwarf planet in the Solar System. The other moons, Nix, Hydra, and S/2011 P 1 ("P4")[1] are much smaller.[2]

 

[TheReasoner]

So what does it mean that God wants us to prosper?

Not the health, wealth and prosperity idea of material wealth and physical health. Jesus was poor, his disciples were poor, his message was not one of material affluence. Christ is not a capitalist, a stockbroker or a rich playboy. He was a humble carpenter's son. His message did not reach out to the rich, the powerful and the lucky, but to the downtrodden, the poor and the sick. Not with a message of instant health and material wealth. But with a message of love, hope, mercy, compassion - yes, salvation. Life with Christ is often harder than without. Not easier. We were not promised an easy life, but one with purpose. Not a life with material wealth, but one with spiritual wealth.

God wants us to prosper in love, compassion and mercy. Not financial wealth, pretty wives and fancy cars. I wonder how the prosperity mindset got all this twisted around to being about wealth and health here on this earth. We will never attain perfection here. That's post mortem, not pre. In life we will face trials, not instant rewards and absence of hardships. We can be sure He'll be with us through them, that He will cry with us. But He will not cry for us. He will walk with us, and sometimes carry us. But He won't do the equivalent of hiring a luxury limousine for us. Our path is narrow, not a fancy paved highway. If you're on a fancy paved highway - spiritually speaking - you're in trouble. And what but such a fancy highway do these people offer? Just believe and you'll get everything. I've heard them say "Praying is DEMANDING of God" as if that is what we're supposed to do. To act like petulant and spoiled children, not friends, servants and faithful hard-working sons and daughters. How can they call Him "Lord" and treat Him like a slot machine? If He is LORD then He demands respect, not a greedy yank on some spiritual slot machine arm. Greed is a sin, not a virtue.

The prosperity gospel mindset is... In my honest opinion outright anti-christian. I have no problem saying that a theological philosophy which focuses on consumption and money is antithetical to one that preaches the cause of the widow, the orphan and the poor. Jesus Himself said we cannot worship both Him and mammon, so why I wonder do these people try to do just that. Faith, real faith, does not need money and fancy clothes. Real faith does not need instant gratification and fast, easy solutions. It perseveres through hardships. It is patient, not haughty. It is humble, not arrogant.



God may want us to prosper. But who said anything about that entailing excess? Money is not our god. Our God is a God of love, mercy, compassion. For those who deserve it the least. For those who need it the most. Not a slot machine to give you your material desires. For that you'd better look for someone with horns. Though such "gifts" won't come cheap if you do.

 

[mzungu]

Not the health, wealth and prosperity idea of material wealth and physical health. Jesus was poor, his disciples were poor, his message was not one of material affluence. Christ is not a capitalist, a stockbroker or a rich playboy. He was a humble carpenter's son. His message did not reach out to the rich, the powerful and the lucky, but to the downtrodden, the poor and the sick. Not with a message of instant health and material wealth. But with a message of love, hope, mercy, compassion - yes, salvation. Life with Christ is often harder than without. Not easier. We were not promised an easy life, but one with purpose. Not a life with material wealth, but one with spiritual wealth.

God wants us to prosper in love, compassion and mercy. Not financial wealth, pretty wives and fancy cars. I wonder how the prosperity mindset got all this twisted around to being about wealth and health here on this earth. We will never attain perfection here. That's post mortem, not pre. In life we will face trials, not instant rewards and absence of hardships. We can be sure He'll be with us through them, that He will cry with us. But He will not cry for us. He will walk with us, and sometimes carry us. But He won't do the equivalent of hiring a luxury limousine for us. Our path is narrow, not a fancy paved highway. If you're on a fancy paved highway - spiritually speaking - you're in trouble. And what but such a fancy highway do these people offer? Just believe and you'll get everything. I've heard them say "Praying is DEMANDING of God" as if that is what we're supposed to do. To act like petulant and spoiled children, not friends, servants and faithful hard-working sons and daughters. How can they call Him "Lord" and treat Him like a slot machine? If He is LORD then He demands respect, not a greedy yank on some spiritual slot machine arm. Greed is a sin, not a virtue.

The prosperity gospel mindset is... In my honest opinion outright anti-christian. I have no problem saying that a theological philosophy which focuses on consumption and money is antithetical to one that preaches the cause of the widow, the orphan and the poor. Jesus Himself said we cannot worship both Him and mammon, so why I wonder do these people try to do just that. Faith, real faith, does not need money and fancy clothes. Real faith does not need instant gratification and fast, easy solutions. It perseveres through hardships. It is patient, not haughty. It is humble, not arrogant.



God may want us to prosper. But who said anything about that entailing excess? Money is not our god. Our God is a God of love, mercy, compassion. For those who deserve it the least. For those who need it the most. Not a slot machine to give you your material desires. For that you'd better look for someone with horns. Though such "gifts" won't come cheap if you do.

Welcome to the American world of capitalism where even God is for sale!

 

[Jazer]

We will never attain perfection here.

We are told to be perfect. Are you saying that Jesus tells us to do something that we can not obtain?

Matthew 5:48 (NKJV) - "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

 

[TheReasoner]

Welcome to the American world of capitalism where even God is for sale!

Yep. Been to an American megachurch? Whooo-eee.. Interesting experience. To say the least.

 

[TheReasoner]

We are told to be perfect. Are you saying that Jesus tells us to do something that we can not obtain?

Matthew 5:48 (NKJV) - "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Yep. An unattainable goal, yet one we should strive for nevertheless.

Ever met a perfect person? I haven't. Insane ones who claim to be perfect I have met. But... No. Most certainly not perfect.

We're also told not to sin. Ever met a sinless human being? No such person exists. We're still told not to sin though.


Read the bible. Does perfection ever show up, apart from in Jesus? No. It doesn't. Paul speaks of wanting to do good, but sinning nevertheless. How the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. And Paul was a spiritual giant. So what hopes do we tiny people have? Even Peter, who lived with Jesus and saw His miracles denied Him. Thrice. No-one is perfect. No-one ever attains perfection. It's impossible, and claiming that we can attain it in this life is not something that has neither biblical nor empirical support. At all. But it is still part of our goal. Still part of our calling. And I for one will not stop trying to reach it. Even though I know I never will - pre mortem.

The prosperity gospel preaches easy lives as consequences of true faith. Yet where in the bible do we see that? The apostles were killed, imprisoned and tortured. Obviously not in that order. And they were undoubtedly far better Christians than us. With far stronger faith. The first Christians were persecuted. At times they would be strung up and lit on fire while still alive in roman celebrations. Or fed to the lions in Circus. Torn apart, limb from limb. They lived in hiding and in fear. We know from the bible that many were slaves, and told to be good slaves by the apostles. Not an easy life at all. A very, very hard one. So hard we from the west usually can't comprehend it.

Even today most Christians are dirt poor. And some of the best Christians I have met have lived in conditions so menial it's unbelievable. I recall a couple living in a earthen house. No plumbing, no electricity. Their hut had one room, and they slept on mats on the floor with their quy (guinea pigs, for food). Husband, wife and two children with severe disabilities. They did not own their own house, but were what amounts to tenant farmers. Terrible lives, materially. Yet their peace. Their faith. Their love. Those people - amid their squalor and dreary outlooks somehow shone. Very special people. The kind who radiate peace, compassion and love so strongly you're taken aback by it. I've only met people like that three or four times. They are rare. And most of the ones I have met in such situations have had severe material poverty. Not affluence.


Saying that true faith brings affluence and health is then a mockery of these people. And of those among the first Christians who died such horrible deaths for their faith. And of the ones who remained when others fled from the plague, remained to tend the sick and dying. Some of those people died themselves. Gruesome deaths. But they stayed out of love. That was how Christianity spread at times. Not through easy, problem free lives and comfy, wealthy believers. Oh, no. From people who risked their own lives - and at times lost their lives - for others.
I remember the tale of a polish priest (Maximilian Kolbe) during WW2 who upon seeing a fellow concentration camp inmate being sent to die offered to take his place, as the condemned man was a father and husband. The priest and others with him were starved to death. He spent his time dying soothing the other victims, easing their passage. His suffering was not relieved. It was not lessened. It was increased. For his love for others and his sacrifice he lived longer than the others and was the last to die.

Upon these memories, upon these people that money-cult spits and stomps. I hate it for that.

 

[Split Rock]

So definitions can be wrong and misleading?

Definitions can be changed.

 

[Jazer]

Ever met a perfect person? I haven't. Insane ones who claim to be perfect I have met. But... No. Most certainly not perfect.

You should look to see what perfect means. To be perfect is whole, finished and mature. Like a flower in full bloom, like a fruit tree that is ready to produce fruit.

The apostles were killed, imprisoned and tortured.

I am descended from the first person that Bloody Mary burned at the stake. They were happy to be considered worthy to be persecuted and martyred. Pain and suffering is not a condition for salvation. This is the age of grace. We receive a reward for the work that we do. Not that we are worthy because God does so much more for us then we do for Him. That is why we throw our crowns or rewards at the feet of Jesus.

And they were undoubtedly far better Christians than us.

Is that why Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Yet after he received the Holy Spirit poured out on Pentecost then he had boldness.

Very special people. The kind who radiate peace, compassion and love so strongly you're taken aback by it. I've only met people like that three or four times. They are rare. And most of the ones I have met in such situations have had severe material poverty. Not affluence.

My wife grew up very poor. They had to sacrifice a lot to pay for their education. Even when she graduated and got a job most of her life has been spent working to help put nephews and nieces though school. I used to be amazed at the sacrifice her mom would make. Her towels were so wore out there was little more then powder left. She drank her water out of a container that the oil for the motorcycle came in. I bought them a little plastic dipper for a dollar when I was there for a visit. They bought her a propane stove but she never used it. She wanted to cook the fish on the fire because it tasted better. She had money but gave it to the grandchildren to give them a chance in life.

You seem to think that if people have money they will spend it on themselves. There are people that pray for prosperity so they have more to help others in their need. To help a student pay for their education. Or to help buy some medicine for a sick brother.