GAP Creationism VS YEC & OEC Creationism

[mzungu]

You know what else Hovind is?

Spoiler: What else Hovind is

FORGIVEN

Are you speaking on behalf of or instead of God or are you expressing your personal forgiveness of Hovind?

What is worse: A professed devout Christian Evangelist who has purposely committed fraud and thus breaking his adherence to scriptures especially since he was Born again. Or An atheist who has not committed himself to the scriptures and commits fraud?

Is the Atheist forgiven too? After all did not Jesus express that he came for the sinners and not the faithful?

I cannot but notice a lot of double standards in CF. Everyone who was born again and a professed Christian is never condemned by the creationists or Bible literals but are happy to condemn anyone who is not a Christian even though he or she have committed no crime other than to not being Christians.

I am in no way implying that such a person is you! I am referring to others!

 

[TheReasoner]

You know what else Hovind is?
FORGIVEN

So are anyone who turn to Christ. It does not nullify the evil of such deeds though. That Hovind is a recipient of Christ's mercy does not mean he is no fraud. And if he does not repent from his sin... Well...
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1. Corinthians 6:10)
And Hovind is guilty of greed, swindling AND slandering. Not just as one time mistakes but as lifestyle sins. And that is not trivial AV. He needs to repent, and apologize. Yes, I know: we all need to repent. We're all sinners and we all fall short. But Corinthians does set a high price on some of such, as shown. And Hovind... Well, he committed those sins in the name of Christ. As lifestyle choices. Do you consider that light or inconsequential? How is it different from living in other sins?

 

[AV1611VET]

And Hovind is guilty of greed, swindling AND slandering.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing how bad a person Hovind is.

When David saw Bathsheba and wanted her, what did he do? he raped her.

Then, when she got pregnant, David tried to cover that by having her husband come home from the service, hoping that he would perform a marital privilege, only, to his horror, find out that Uriah refused.

2 Samuel 11:11 And Uriah said unto David, The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in tents; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open fields; shall I then go into mine house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? as thou livest, and as thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing.

What did he do next, when Uriah went back to the army?

He had her husband Uriah placed at the front of the battle, with orders to withdraw and leave him there.

Of course he died in battle, leaving David to marry Bathsheba.

And do you know how he did this? He sent Uriah back to battle with a note in his hand to give to the commander -- a note that was his own death warrant.

2 Samuel 11:14 And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
2 Samuel 11:15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die.

Yet, after all that, when David came to his senses and realized what he had done, what did he write to God?

Psalm 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

I could never understand this passage, until it was pointed out to me that David was never again the man he used to be; and when he died, he died one of the most agonizing deaths in the Bible (Psalm 38).

Mister Hovind didn't do nearly what David did, but, just like David, he is forgiven (assuming he repented).

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Mister Hovind didn't do nearly what David did, but, just like David, he is forgiven (assuming he repented).

It's almost amusing that a purportedly-loving God can forgive a genocidal rapist, but not a benign Buddhist.

 

[Jazer]

And Hovind is guilty of greed, swindling AND slandering.

Wow, did you ever read that part about how we are not to judge others? When we do judge we are told that we are guilty of the very same thing?

Rom 2 1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are that judge: for wherein you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things.

<< Matthew 7 KJV King James Version1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's almost amusing that a purportedly-loving God can forgive a genocidal rapist, but not a benign Buddhist.

The word "genocidal" is what is keeping you from understanding; and I know some Satanists who would give you the shirts off their backs.

 

[Jazer]

His PhD is no more valid than one scribbled in crayon by my little sister

What difference does it make? When you have a name like Dr Dino it is a joke to make people happy and make them laugh. You people have so much negative energy you do not know how to be happy and positive.

 

[AV1611VET]

What difference does it make? When you have a name like Dr Dino it is a joke to make people happy and make them laugh. You people have so much negative energy you do not know how to be happy and positive.

We say unregenerates can be happy, but can't have 'fulness of joy'.

Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

 

[TheReasoner]

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing how bad a person Hovind is.

When David saw Bathsheba and wanted her, what did he do? he raped her.

Nope. He had sex with her. Rape is different. In the one (sex) there is consent. In rape there is no such.

Then, when she got pregnant, David tried to cover that by having her husband come home from the service, hoping that he would perform a marital privilege, only, to his horror, find out that Uriah refused.

2 Samuel 11:11 And Uriah said unto David, The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in tents; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open fields; shall I then go into mine house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? as thou livest, and as thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing.

What did he do next, when Uriah went back to the army?

He had her husband Uriah placed at the front of the battle, with orders to withdraw and leave him there.

Of course he died in battle, leaving David to marry Bathsheba.

And do you know how he did this? He sent Uriah back to battle with a note in his hand to give to the commander -- a note that was his own death warrant.

2 Samuel 11:14 And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah.
2 Samuel 11:15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die.

Yet, after all that, when David came to his senses and realized what he had done, what did he write to God?

Psalm 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

I could never understand this passage, until it was pointed out to me that David was never again the man he used to be; and when he died, he died one of the most agonizing deaths in the Bible (Psalm 38).

Mister Hovind didn't do nearly what David did, but, just like David, he is forgiven (assuming he repented).

Hovind is not David. And as far as I know he has not repented. Also, to my knowledge David did not commit adultery in God's name, but rather in his own. Hovind has swindled out of greed for a large number of years - and when found out and confronted he did not repent, but lied to the court of law. Again, in God's name.

He has lived several lies for decades, AV. And when found out he did not repent like David did. He sinned and sinned some more, justifying it all with a twisted abuse of the bible. That should not be taken lightly. Should he repent that's another matter. Then the whole issue instantly becomes forgiven and Hovind embraced as far as I am concerned. But he must repent.

Hovind needs to be confronted with the sins he has committed. He committed his sins in the public eye, and should repent there as well. He has not to my knowledge done any such thing. Instead lied and tried to cover up parts of it by sinning some more. Not by killing as David did, but by theft and fraud. And by asking others to steal and lie for him too.

Now, if Hovind repents and humbles himself before God and those against whom he sinned (his followers, other christians, non-christians, the american people and more) that's fine and as far as I am concerned that will be the end of that. But if he does not... Matthew chapter 18, 1. Corinthians 6 and other passages touch upon what's done and what response we should have.

My point:
Hovind's actions were and are reprehensible. As Christians we should distance ourselves from them, condemn them and while we should be ready to embrace the man should he repent we must for his soul's sake be clear on the consequences of his actions should he not repent.
This is extremely important because Hovind is not the only one who has a fake degree and uses it to swindle people in the creationist community. There are many others who are just as bad in that respect. So I ask you: How can we allow such behavior to go unanswered among our brothers and sisters? Should we let them swindle and lie in the name of our God and not speak up against it?
No! Never! They must be confronted with their choices and asked to repent. If something cannot be done in the light it should not be done at all: Hence: If they cannot have a ministry without lying and deceiving then they should not have a ministry. Such service, based on lies, deceit, fraud and darkness only benefit the devil. Not the Lord.

 

[Jazer]

In addition I should hope I do not have to mention the female prophets in the old testament?

I never said they do not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, even the gift of prophecy. God calls them to ministry but if they were doing what God calls them to do they would not have the time to upsurp the authority of the Church. Women are not called to be pastors or priests. They are called to minister to other women, to teach wives to love their husbands. They are called to teach the children. When they are off trying to do a man's job then there is no one there to do the work God calls them to.

<< Staff Edit >>

 

[TheReasoner]

What difference does it make? When you have a name like Dr Dino it is a joke to make people happy and make them laugh. You people have so much negative energy you do not know how to be happy and positive.

And that would have been fine. But if said person uses the label Dr. falsely in order to create some kind of illusion of authority it's different. Then it is a lie and a fraud. Some people actually believe he has a degree. A real one.

As a funny or humorous thing it'd be fine. As a lie it is not. Lying is a sin. And as Hovind has used his fake phd and the dr. prefix in all seriousness to create an illusion of nonexistent authority it is a lie. THAT is the problem. Not the two letters and the period. The context and the intent.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The word "genocidal" is what is keeping you from understanding; and I know some Satanists who would give you the shirts off their backs.

I don't doubt. Nonetheless, David was genocidal.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Mister Hovind didn't do nearly what David did, but, just like David, he is forgiven (assuming he repented) .

Considering that, according to Hovind's letters from prison, he doesn't consider himself to have done anything wrong (and his followers still think he's being "persecuted"), I wouldn't bank on that assumption.

 

[AV1611VET]

Now, if Hovind repents and humbles himself before God and those against whom he sinned (his followers, other christians, non-christians, the american people and more)...

And right here is your problem.

You didn't get a thing from my last post, did you?

I even highlighted my point.

Hovind did not -- and cannot -- sin against me; I'm not God.

So I ask you: How can we allow such behavior to go unanswered among our brothers and sisters?

You sound melodramatic to me about this man; but that aside, let me make a point.

If anyone got 'duped' by this man, whose fault is it?

Creationism is my forte, and I can assure you, he would not dupe me like he did others, who don't know their Bibles.

Frankly, you sound scared.

 

[TheReasoner]

I never said they do not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, even the gift of prophecy. God calls them to ministry but if they were doing what God calls them to do they would not have the time to upsurp the authority of the Church. Women are not called to be pastors or priests. They are called to minister to other women, to teach wives to love their husbands. They are called to teach the children. When they are off trying to do a man's job then there is no one there to do the work God calls them to.

It is no wonder you act like a child, because you become as a child when you submit yourself to the authority of a female.

I see you ignore the other verses I pointed to, which pretty much nullify or at least weaken your own position. And not only that, you resort to name calling. Funny how you say I am acting like a child when you're the one doing the name calling. Not to mention the sexual discrimination.

Jazer, you've done this before. Sure, you're mad at me for pointing out that one of your heroes is an anti-hero. A fraud, a liar and a deceiver. I get how that can be.... Disillusioning. But it's a fact. If Hovind repents that would be great. If he does not.... He's guilty of some serious stuff Jazer.

I seem to recall this is not the first time you've used name calling though. Funny how this is so common to you creationists. Faced with a challenge you can't overcome and point to something else. "Oh, FG has a female priest, that effectively nullifies everything he has said!", or "Oh, so-and-so is non-christian that means he's wrong". Why can't you address the issue at hand instead of attacking other issues in an attempt to undermine your opposition's credibility? If you're a real man Jazer you should have the integrity and decency to address the issue at hand, not suddenly start attacking totally unrelated issues. Okay, I have a female priest in my congregation. I have several friends who are both female and theologians. I'd even discuss that with you, provided you start a thread on a proper board and invite me via PM. As for this thread it is not about that. The subject has changed to Hovind and you cannot dismiss the issues pertaining to him and his ilk by pointing to something else. Be a man and address that which we are discussing instead of sinking to ad-hominem, straw man and well poisoning, okay?

 

[TheReasoner]

And right here is your problem.

You didn't get a thing from my last post, did you?

I even highlighted my point.

Hovind did not -- and cannot -- sin against me; I'm not God.

Stealing from you is sinning against you. Right?

You sound melodramatic to me about this man; but that aside, let me make a point.

If anyone got 'duped' by this man, whose fault is it?

His. At least in part. A charismatic man who leads others into sin is guilty of great sin. THe bible speaks of that you know. Jesus was not too kind on that subject.

Creationism is my forte, and I can assure you, he would not dupe me like he did others, who don't know their Bibles.

I'd say you are duped and that you've put your interpretation above the will and authority of God, thereby usurping His position. I say that in general of creationists who cannot even admit to the possibility of being wrong as it is a real danger. If they do claim their position and understanding of the bible is infallible they are seriously mistaken. This goes for any and everyone. Not just creationists.

You must not take any one interpretation and claim it as infallible. This elevates the interpreter to infallibility - which is (again) sinful.

Frankly, you sound scared.

Nope. Not scared. Angry. I get angry when people lie, cheat and deceive in the name of my God in order to make money.

 

[AV1611VET]

Considering that, according to Hovind's letters from prison, he doesn't consider himself to have done anything wrong (and his followers still think he's being "persecuted"), I wouldn't bank on that assumption.

Ya -- Jack Horkheimer duped me for years, making me think, like him, that Pluto was our 9th planet.

 

[AV1611VET]

Stealing from you is sinning against you. Right?

Wrong.

Do you know the [proper] difference between ethics and morals?

His. At least in part.

A small part.

Do you believe Mr. Hovind owes you some money back or something?

Nope. Not scared. Angry. I get angry when people lie in the name of my God in order to make money.

You'd blow a gasket with Oral Roberts then, wouldn't you?

 

[TheReasoner]

Ya -- Jack Horkheimer duped me for years, making me think, like him, that Pluto was our 9th planet.

Changing definitions is a little different to large scale tax fraud, fake degrees and more of the sort. Don't you think?

 

[AV1611VET]

Changing definitions is a little different to large scale tax fraud, fake degrees and more of the sort. Don't you think?

Oh, well -- suit yourself.

You sound like a one-man crusader to me; but frankly, you're just another melodramatic venter, running on a short fuse.