Galatians' Justification

[Gary K]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply SDA's are not Christians. I just asked because I wanted to know what I was dealing with. BTW, from what I know, SDA's don't think justification is a done deal. They think it is something Jesus will rule upon after their physical death based on how well their lives on earth comported with His requirements. SDA's are welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Having said that, your analysis of Galatians 2:16-17 is faulty. The use of the subjunctive and infinitive do not indicate that justification is a process. But, let's assume for the sake of argument that you are right. What exactly would you say is the process? I am familiar with (and dissagree with) preogressive sanctification. Is it similar to that?

I don't think HIM is an Adventist. He just believes in keeping the Sabbath.

Your statement about what SDAs believe is a grave error. We believe it is no different than Luther, Calvin. Knox. Melancthon. etc... taught during the Reformation which is different than what the majority of Christians today believe. Every one of the Reformers believed that justification brought sanctification along with it. It's called righteousness by faith.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sure it does. Saying it doesn't is subjective conjecture. In other words you are just saying so with no basis for it. Whereas if we just take the text for what it says there is no argument. The justification to which Galatians speaks is not yet. Therefore it is a process according to the text.

I have a question for you. Do you believe once saved always saved?

I'll answer your question after you answer my question. I am a little put off by people ignoring my questions/positions/opinions and only promoting their own.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't think HIM is an Adventist. He just believes in keeping the Sabbath.

Your statement about what SDAs believe is a grave error. We believe it is no different than Luther, Cslvin. Knox. Melancthon. etc... taught during the Reformation which is different than what the majority of Christians today believe. Every one of the Reformers believed that justification brought sanctification along with it. It's called righteousness by faith.

Thank you for the clarification. I do have a question about that though. Does the righteousness, justification, and sanctification that comes by faith produce sinless perfection on earth, or is it still possible to commit sin? I'm a little fuzzy on your beliefs there.

 

[Gary K]

Thank you for the clarification. I do have a question about that though. Does the righteousness, justification, and sanctification that comes by faith produce sinless perfection on earth, or is it still possible to commit sin? I'm a little fuzzy on your beliefs there.

Thanks for asking. Sinlessness is not possible before the 2nd coming of Jesus, but through the power of the HS the ability to not sin is made available as John makes very plain in 1John, 2John and 3John.

This is stock, standard SDA belief.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Thanks for asking. Sinlessness is not possible before the 2nd coming of Jesus, but through the power of the HS the ability to not sin is made available as John makes very plain in 1John, 2John and 3John.

This is stock, standard SDA belief.

That clears up that point. Thanks.

 

[HIM]

I'll answer your question after you answer my question. I am a little put off by people ignoring my questions/positions/opinions and only promoting their own.

That is okay. I am a little put off when points are shared about a given text, or topic and then not addressed by the people who are being shared to.
Quite the quandary huh?

And fyi when facts are shared it is not a question of promoting one's own opinion, beliefs or position. It is sharing facts. And that is what has been shared in the OP and to you directly.

Be that as it may, your opinion about what was share with you was addressed with facts about the text and surrounding passages. I ignored your questions because it was seen as a red herring or rabbit hole since you never acknowledge the facts shared with you with anything objective. I could be wrong so we will address it now.

What exactly would you say is the process?

The World has it backwards or not at all. Justified is being made righteous. It is a process as Galatians shares. Sanctification is being set apart for a purpose. This is a done deal and it is done through the blood of Jesus Christ. For if the blood of bulls and goats SANCTIFIETH to the purifing of the flesh. How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience (who we are, the inner man) from dead works (sin, acts that cause death) to serve the living God.
Jesus came to do the will of God, to establish the second. By which will we are sanctified through the Body of Jesus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL. And by this offering He PERFECTED forever them that are SANCTIFIED. WHEREOF, this perfection in which is forever for them that are SANCTIFIED the Holy Ghost has also witness in that He said before of this perfectness. I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them saith the LORD.


Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[Gary K]

That is okay. I am a little put off when points are shared about a given text, or topic and then not addressed by the people who are being shared to.
Quite the quandary huh?

And fyi when facts are shared it is not a question of promoting one's own opinion, beliefs or position. It is sharing facts. And that is what has been shared in the OP and to you directly.

Be that as it may, your opinion about what was share with you was addressed with facts about the text and surrounding passages. I ignored your questions because it was seen as a red herring or rabbit hole since you never acknowledge the facts shared with you with anything objective. I could be wrong so we will address it now.


The World has it backwards or not at all. Justified is being made righteous. It is a process as Galatians shares. Sanctification is being set apart for a purpose. This is a done deal and it is done through the blood of Jesus Christ. For if the blood of bulls and goats SANCTIFIETH to the purifing of the flesh. How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience (who we are, the inner man) from dead works (sin, acts that cause death) to serve the living God.
Jesus came to do the will of God, to establish the second. By which will we are sanctified through the Body of Jesus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL. And by this offering He PERFECTED forever them that are SANCTIFIED. WHEREOF, this perfection in which is forever for them that are SANCTIFIED the Holy Ghost has also witness in that He said before of this perfectness. I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them saith the LORD.


Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

I can't say as I blame you for being put off by what you see as deceit, I don't see it that way though. I see it as a form of brainwashing as they have been taught since they were little kids what they now think, It's almost impossible for them to understand a different point of view.

 

[HIM]

I can't say as I blame you for being put off by what you see as deceit, I don't see it that way though. I see it as a form of brainwashing as they have been taught since they were little kids what they now think, It's almost impossible for them to understand a different point of view.

Hey Gary happy Sabbath! I would not say deceit. Personally, I don't think they are aware that they are doing it. I believe they ask questions to prove a point even though they had not actually addressed the posts. A couple others do the same thing. It is frustrating really and would not have shared this but it seems it was meant to be.

 

[Gary K]

Hey Gary happy Sabbath! I would not say deceit. Personally, I don't think they are aware that they are doing it. I believe they ask questions to prove a point even though they had not actually addressed the posts. A couple others do the same thing. It is frustrating really and would not have shared this but it seems it was meant to be.

Happy Sabbath to you too. Isn't God wonderful to give us such a meaningful common understanding to link total strangers in fellowship?

I don't think there is any mistaking God's leading us to post the things we do. They all fit into His overall plan to save as many of we human beings as possible.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That is okay. I am a little put off when points are shared about a given text, or topic and then not addressed by the people who are being shared to.
Quite the quandary huh?

And fyi when facts are shared it is not a question of promoting one's own opinion, beliefs or position. It is sharing facts. And that is what has been shared in the OP and to you directly.

Be that as it may, your opinion about what was share with you was addressed with facts about the text and surrounding passages. I ignored your questions because it was seen as a red herring or rabbit hole since you never acknowledge the facts shared with you with anything objective. I could be wrong so we will address it now.


The World has it backwards or not at all. Justified is being made righteous. It is a process as Galatians shares. Sanctification is being set apart for a purpose. This is a done deal and it is done through the blood of Jesus Christ. For if the blood of bulls and goats SANCTIFIETH to the purifing of the flesh. How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience (who we are, the inner man) from dead works (sin, acts that cause death) to serve the living God.
Jesus came to do the will of God, to establish the second. By which will we are sanctified through the Body of Jesus Christ ONCE AND FOR ALL. And by this offering He PERFECTED forever them that are SANCTIFIED. WHEREOF, this perfection in which is forever for them that are SANCTIFIED the Holy Ghost has also witness in that He said before of this perfectness. I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them saith the LORD.


Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Where is the Process?
Ok, you all are smart, and I am dumb. Please help me find the process in what you said because I don't see it. Just to make sure I understand the word, "process", I looked it up. According to Miriam-Webster, Process: "a natural progressively continuing operation or development marked by a series of gradual changes that succeed one another in a relatively fixed way and lead toward a particular result or end". Please point out the gradual changes that succeed one another in a relatively fixed way that lead to justification.

OSAS
Yes, I believe "once saved, always saved".

Subjunctives and Infinitives
I said the use of the subjunctive and the infinitive does not in itself indicate a process.

Examples of Subjunctives where the cause of the action is not a process but a simple action​

• For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn 3:20)
• But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. (Jn 3:21)
• The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.” (Jn 5:7)
• Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (Eph 6:13)

Examples of infinitives where the cause of action is not a process but a simple action​

• Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. (Mt 3:13)
• Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. (Mt 6:1)
• Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (Ga 2:3)
• I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren. (1 Th 5:27)

Scriptures that Indicate Justification is not a process but a completed event for those who are saved

• Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Ro 5:1)
• Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him (Ro 5:9)
• And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Co 6:11)
• But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Tt 3:4–7)
  

 

[Studyman]

No it is mine, . God moved me through it so we share. Funny how we look and study a set of verses, chapters and or books for years and don’t see. The first part of the po was not given to me until yesterday. And I probably would have not seen it if it weren’t for this forum

I have found the same thing. In answering questions and digging into why a person believes what they believe, a lot is revealed that hadn’t really clicked before.

I am reminded of Malichi 3:14-18

Verse 16 “And they that feared the Lord spake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared the Lord and thought thought upon His Name.”

These discussions are good to have among men seeking Biblical Truth.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Thanks for asking. Sinlessness is not possible before the 2nd coming of Jesus, but through the power of the HS the ability to not sin is made available as John makes very plain in 1John, 2John and 3John.

This is stock, standard SDA belief.

I reread another of your posts and found this:

we are capable of violating no law. That is keeping the 10 commandments

So maybe you can explain how this is possible without believing in sinless perfection

 

[Gary K]

I reread another of your posts and found this:

So maybe you can explain how this is possible without believing in sinless perfection

Sinless perfection means we cannot sin. The HS dwelling within us makes it possible to not sin as per Galations 5: 22. 23. That's a big difference.

 

[HIM]

Where is the Process?
Ok, you all are smart, and I am dumb. Please help me find the process in what you said because I don't see it. Just to make sure I understand the word, "process", I looked it up. According to Miriam-Webster, Process: "a natural progressively continuing operation or development marked by a series of gradual changes that succeed one another in a relatively fixed way and lead toward a particular result or end". Please point out the gradual changes that succeed one another in a relatively fixed way that lead to justification.

It is a verb which means it is an action. The only time it is a done deal is when it is in the perfect tense. I am only aware of one occurrence of that and it is not in Galatians in respect to being justified, being made righteous it is in Romans 4 in respect Abraham. This thread is on Galatians and what it says about being justified, being made or deemed righteous. Not Romans or any other letter. Just because another letter is seen as saying something different. That perceived difference does not negate what another letter says.

OSAS

Yes, I believe "once saved, always saved".

Thought so. Sorry to hear that due the likely hood that everything you read in the Bible will be seen through that Lense rather than taking things for what they say.

Examples of Subjunctives where the cause of the action is not a process but a simple action​

• For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn 3:20)
• But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. (Jn 3:21)
• The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.” (Jn 5:7)
• Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (Eph 6:13)

​

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibilities. Which means it can happen but hasn't. Hence why you see the words may, could, should and might in most translations of it.

Examples of infinitives where the cause of action is not a process but a simple action

• Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. (Mt 3:13)
• Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. (Mt 6:1)
• Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. (Ga 2:3)
• I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren. (1 Th 5:27)

The process is in the fact that it is a verb, an action. The infinitive is a verbal noun. The time it is in relation to a fixed time is when the definite article is present with a preposition. These are absent in Galatians 2. But in respect to your examples none of these actions are being state as having occurred. To be baptized is not having been baptized. To be seen is not having been seen. To be circumcised is not being circumcised. To be read is not being read. The possibility is there but it has not happened.

Scriptures that Indicate Justification is not a process but a completed event for those who are saved

• Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Ro 5:1)
• Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him (Ro 5:9)
• And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Co 6:11)
• But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Tt 3:4–7)

All your examples are in the aorist tense. This tense is difficult to translate and it does not get translated properly in most instances because it has been common placed to just translate it in the past tense. The Aorist tense is interesting in that it is something that started or is done in the past but is ongoing. Hence a process is seen. Most translation hatch up Romans 5 and other instances of it. If it is aorist and we see the word "being" before the word then it is a descent translation of the text. The aorist tense shows a process or a on going circumstance, hence the word "being" used a lot of the times it is used.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sinless perfection means we cannot sin. The HS dwelling within us makes it possible to not sin as per Galations 5: 22. 23. That's a big difference.

"We are capable of violating no law" means "we cannot sin" which means "sinless perfection". What do you mean by "capable"? How are we not capable of violating any law?

 

[Studyman]

Thought so. Sorry to hear that due the likely hood that everything you read in the Bible will be seen through that Lense rather than taking things for what they say.

This is such a huge truth first exhibited by God through EVE. She listened to the "other voice" who quoted "some" of God's Word, believed it, and from then on everything she saw was through the prism of her deception.

I think Jesus said all men have this darkness/deception. Most avoid the Light in order to preserve their own philosophy. Like Eve, who could have asked God at any time for help or direction, and HE would have blessed her with it.

Then there are those who seek truth, regardless of the personal cost or humiliation which might come with it. These men come to the Light for the very purpose of exposing the darkness they know exists within them. "I believe, help me in my unbelief".

This is a great truth Him. Thanks for sharing.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Practically everything you said after the first sentence is false.

It is a verb which means it is an action.

true

The only time it is a done deal is when it is in the perfect tense.

false

Just because another letter is seen as saying something different. That perceived difference does not negate what another letter says.

false

Thought so. Sorry to hear that due the likely hood that everything you read in the Bible will be seen through that Lense rather than taking things for what they say.

So much for obeying the 10 commandments

The process is in the fact that it is a verb.

false

The infinitive is a verbal noun.

false

The time it is in relation to a fixed time is when the definite article is present with a preposition.

false

But in respect to your examples none of these actions are being state as having occurred.

false

To be baptized is not having been baptized. To be seen is not having been seen. To be circumcised is not being circumcised. To be read is not being read. The possibility is there but it has not happened.

deceptive

All your examples are in the aorist tense. This tense is difficult to translate and it does not get translated properly in most instances because it has been common placed to just translate it in the past tense.

false

The Aorist tense is interesting in that it is something that started or is done in the past but is ongoing.

false

Hence a process is seen.

false

Most translation hatch up Romans 5 and other instances of it.

false

If it is aorist and we see the word "being" before the word then it is a descent translation of the text.

false

The aorist tense shows a process or a on going circumstance, hence the word "being" used a lot of the times it is used.

false

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

This is such a huge truth first exhibited by God through EVE. She listened to the "other voice" who quoted "some" of God's Word, believed it, and from then on everything she saw was through the prism of her deception.

I think Jesus said all men have this darkness/deception. Most avoid the Light in order to preserve their own philosophy. Like Eve, who could have asked God at any time for help or direction, and HE would have blessed her with it.

Then there are those who seek truth, regardless of the personal cost or humiliation which might come with it. These men come to the Light for the very purpose of exposing the darkness they know exists within them. "I believe, help me in my unbelief".

This is a great truth Him. Thanks for sharing.

It's easy to cast dispersions, but much harder to explain the alternative. If you don't like OSAS, then please pick one (or tell me what your ditty would be):

Once saved, then lost, doomed to hell forever (OSTLDTHF)
Once saved, then lost, may be saved again, but that's the last chance (OSTLMBSABTTLC)
In and out of salvation repeatedly, must die while saved (IAOOSRMDWS)
Never saved, but lived a good life, so saved in the end (NSBLAGLSSITE)
Never Lost, Never Saved (NLNS)
Tried your best, hope for the best (TYBHFTB)

We need a pithy explanation for the alternative to OSAS.

 

[HIM]

Practically everything you said after the first sentence is false.

true

false

false

So much for obeying the 10 commandments


false

false

false

false

deceptive

false

false

false

false

false

false

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You posted nothing that says any different. To say it is false or deception is ignorant without proof. I thought there was a chance you would be different. Oh well. take care.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You posted nothing that says any different. To say it is false or deception is ignorant without proof. I thought there was a chance you would be different. Oh well. take care.

You can look it up yourself. Too much wrong for me to fix. You must do that.