Futurists vs Preterists

BULWARK · Apr 22, 2002

But Willis , shorly when god says what he wants through a prophet , he is refering to a particular event in the future???

if prophesy has multiple fullfillments to this extent then would it be gods word???

couldn`t anyone say anything then , and that will fullfill it`s self many times , as many times as anyone wants to twist it to mean whatever.

so is prophesy of any value at all.

there was a thread I read today that addressess this quite well;

the title was something like ;

"prophesy past is a witness that gods in control but prophesy future is a stumbling block"

go check that thread out Willis , that bloke seemed to hit it right on the head.

Catchup · Apr 22, 2002

GW..
I welcome you and your views to my thread...
"Mark of the Beast". You have been strangely absent from this end of times thread. Come over and explain Revelations. It is all history from your view point...so what is the problem?

But this morning, I am having trouble speaking to you in a Christian manner.If you could see me at my keyboard right now...I would probably frighten you. I am banging away with righteous anger at your last post on this thread. How dare you blame the word of God for the actions of ignorant people!!!!!!!

I have to ask: Do you know the history of end times in the Church? It has been a disaster. End times movements in Church history have produced the following fruit:

* Endless false testimony from the Church about world events, movements, governments, and leaders

* Wars (from the Munster revolt to Hitler)

* Mass suicides (Jonestown; 20-30,000 Russian Orthodox Church members--"the Old Believers"--burned themselves to death while under impression the endtimes had come)

* Heresies (JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons are all endtimes movements that were birthed out of mainstream endtimes hysterias started by legitimate Protestant denominations in the early and mid 1800s!) Why do you suppose they call themselves the "Latter Day Saints"?

* Waco/Hal Lindsey's 1980s error/Heaven's Gate

...and much much more.

Your comments are no better than the anti-religious people who blame the World troubles in general, and this war in specifically on God. They proclaim that the belief in God has brought nothing but misery upon us all!

Now here you go stating that...The beautiful promises of Christ are at fault. Truth will set you free! All eyes will know when Jesus truly returns! We will not need people such as you to tell us that he came!!! It is the falsifying of God and his word that is the danger to our society!!!!!

Why do you not understand that we are not buying your FALSE TEACHINGS?!!

May the Lord have mercy upon you. I would not want to be in your shoes when he appears. You have not only denied his promise in your own mind...but have made a concentrated effort to impose your cult beliefs on others!
I pray that the wisdom of the Spirit will enter your soul.
Turn away from your denial. It is born of fear.

Romans 8: 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.

---------------------------------------------------------

Christ will return and there will be no doubt!!

REVELATIONS1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.

8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

I pray that the Spirit guides you to the truth and you will be prepared. Keep your lamp filled with oil!
He who has ears ....Let him hear!

Luke 21:28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Your Friend in Christ
LOVE

Willis Deal · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
But Willis , shorly when god says what he wants through a prophet , he is refering to a particular event in the future???

Of course God is refering to particular events, otherwise, as you pointed out, prophecy would be useless.

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
if prophesy has multiple fullfillments to this extent then would it be gods word???

Is God unable to author a prophecy that has more than one fulfillment?

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
couldn`t anyone say anything then, and that will fullfill it`s self many times , as many times as anyone wants to twist it to mean whatever. so is prophesy of any value at all.

If one resorts to 'symbolic' interpretation of prophecy (and ALL prophecy students rely upon this method to a certain extent) then yes, any word in a prophecy can have a 'symbolic' meaning that is exactly the OPPOSITE of what the prophecy says and the prophecy becomes worthless and can mean anything. It is for that reason that I heavily favor a literal/physical interpretation of the fulfillment that can be experienced by mortal man.

The JW's calculated the return of Christ to be 1914 based upon complex calculations upon a 'symbolic' understanding of time frames discussed in scripture. When the event failed to materialize they simply made the event 'spiritual' and continued to hold to their belief. So whether you consider Christ returned in 1914 or in 70AD you can defend your position so long as you interpret prophecy in a symbolic form, and prophecy loses its meaning. However, if you interpret prophecy to be literal/physical then you can see where 70ad and 1914 are both in error.

Originally posted by jeopardy_chaos
there was a thread I read today that addressess this quite well;

the title was something like ;

"prophesy past is a witness that gods in control but prophesy future is a stumbling block"

go check that thread out Willis , that bloke seemed to hit it right on the head.

I've already read the thread and the point has merit. When we can recognize that God has fulfilled prophecy we gain confidence in HIM, and likewise, when futurists fail in nailing down the exact date of Christ's return we should be wary of MAN's interpretation of scripture. But just because many men have misjudged when the return of Christ will happen, doesn't mean that it already has happened or that it won't happen at all, it just points out the ignorance of the men who made the prediction. So it is the beauty of prophecy, literally and physically fulfilled, that makes me accept fulfilled prophecy, and it is the heavy reliance on 'spiritual' interpretation of some events that indicate a future literal and physical fulfillment in the future.

parousia70 · Apr 22, 2002

Catchup,

Do you think you might be ble to step back for a second and actually look at what GW is saying here?
I am prone to knee-jerk reactions when I get upset too, so I know where you are comming from, but i think if you took the time to try to understand, you will see GW is not saying that "Gods word" is the cause of anything but Good.

GW is simply saying that MAN has proven, time and again, generation after generation, that "end times hysteria" leads to nothing but misery.

It's not the word of God GW,or I blame, It's man.

Every Generation since the apostles , and even including the apostles generation, believed they were living in the end times. Every one.

Do you mean to tell me that you believe every generation since Christ was correct in their teaching that the end times had come upon their generation?

I myself, have no problem with believing all subsequent Generations since the apostles were wrong about it. I can not believe the Apostles were wrong about it however. The apostles alone had the authority to proclaim that the end times had come upon them, and they all did just that.

The Bible sayis it, I believe it, thats settles it.

GW was just trying to get Josiah to see that false endtimes testimony through the generations has not helped the Church, but has hurt it. It is not an attack on Gods word as you would have it, but a commentary on the flase testimony of misguided men.

YBIC,
P70

GW · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

you still playing cover up?

You really are strange. But God love ya.

Originally posted by The Messenger
trying to say chilioi is BEST translated as thousands is foolishness GW otherwise...

dischilioi would be "twothousands "
trischilioi would be "threethousands "

Click to expand...

That would be a literally correct translation from greek to english (but un-necessary and non-sensical in english). But it would be correct because it would imply a rounded-off figure or an approximation instead of a FIXED NUMERAL. Chilioi is NOT the numeral 1000. Chilias (strongs 5505) is the number 1000.

The root for both Strong's #5507 and #5505 is chili-. By adding "oi" the greeks make it a rounded plurality and not necessarily a mandatory 1000. Add the "-AS" to our root and you have the greek numeral 1000. To increase counts of the numeral 1000 (chilias - strong's #5505) you leave the word as is and add another numeral to it:

one 1000
two 1000
three 1000
four 1000
five 1000

Chilioi, however, is not the numeral 1000. It is a rounded adjective which does not have to mean a number count exactly equal to the numeral 1000. That's what the "-OI" ending does -- it makes a plural out of the root "chili-", whereas the "-AS" suffix makes the root a fixed number - the numeral 1000. Chilioi can be used as a rounded approximation. Chilias is 1000.

Originally posted by The Messenger
it would have been grammatically incorrect to use the noun "chilias" in connection with "etos"(year) which is also a noun.

Click to expand...

Absurd. The sentence would just be constructed differently to use the fixed NUMERAL 1000. Acts 4:4 does exactly this. It uses the two nouns together to get a numeral count of men:

"the number of the men was about five 1000" - chilias [strong's # 5505]

This can be done with years as well -- just insert "years" in place of "men" in the sentence.

Notice also how Luke, in order to give an approximation using the numeral 1000 (chilias), has to add an "ABOUT" to the numeral five 1000. That's because five-1000 is a fixed numeral. So to round it he has to add "ABOUT" to the numeral five 1000.

If he constructed his sentence to use chili-oi here he would NOT have needed to add the modifier "ABOUT" to make it a rounded number. Chili-oi is already a rounded approximation.

GW · Apr 22, 2002

Dear Catchup.

Take a deep breath and hang with me here.

Parousia 70 was exactly right when he said:

"GW was just trying to get Josiah to see that false endtimes testimony through the generations has not helped the Church, but has hurt it. It is not an attack on Gods word as you would have it, but a commentary on the false testimony of misguided men. "

I would only add "CHRISTIAN men" to Parousia's statement, for in most cases of endtimes hysterias down the centuries we're dealing with Chrstians. For example, The Munster revolt which I mentioned above occurred about about 500 years ago and was a bunch of MARTIN LUTHER'S staunch followers who were even more devout to the Reformation and their beliefs than perhaps Luther himself. (BTW, Martin Luther didn't believe the world would go beyond the 1600s).

The Russian Orthodox suicides happened with truly devout Christians whose faith was being tampered with by political forces so that they came to believe it was the endtimes antichrist destroying the Christian Faith. They were devout Christians who were simply inserting themselves and their plight into the book of Revelation as many today are doing.

The JWs, Mormons, and 7th Day Adventists were all heavily influenced by a BAPTIST-led endtimes hysteria in the 1840s that didn't pan out. It's even in your Amerian History book! Look up Baptist minister William Miller and the "Great Disappointment of 1844." It is estimated that nearly 250,000 mainstream American Christians were selling off their goods and heading to remote country in America to watch Jesus arrive. Those three cults (7th-Day Adventists/JWs/Latter Day Saints) simply would not be with us today if it weren't for the devout--but misguided--evangelicals of the early-to-mid 1800s. Look it up in the library. It's Church history.

These people were extremely devout Christians. Perhaps even more devout than you. They were sincere. But they were sincerely wrong as are today's endtimes hysterias.

We are living beyond the endtimes.

GW · Apr 22, 2002

Auntie,

We are not waiting for God to return -- God is with us! As saith the scripture:

2 Corinthians 6:16
for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Revelation 21:3
And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

Those passages don't speak of a YET-FUTURE event. God is here and he walks among us (2 Cor 6:16).

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
Thunder,

I used to be futurist. Have you ever been a preterist?

I know why people are futurist, because I used to be one.
In fact, most all preterists used to be futurist. we know the turmoil you are going through with digesting this view for the first time, for we all went through the same turmoil, asked the same questions, took the same stance you are taking right now. I used to be you! scoffing at the notion that preterism was even worth my time to investigate. But the Holy Spirit, who was dwelling in me since I became saved, some 18 years before I accepted the truth of past fulfillment, was moving me to test this 'new' understanding, not against what I had been "taught" all my Christian Life, but against the scriptures.

P70

To P70,
No I was never a preterist, but I am a christian. I thoroughly investigated this when I was debating you and others on your thread. After between 15-20 hours of debating, my investigation is over. The only question that I didn't get answered was : Which church do you attend?? You refused to answer for some reason, and so did all the other preterists. But thats okay, I'm not at all interested in what preterists believe anymore. I do believe preterists are part of a cult, and very badly deceived. But I don't hold any ill feelings towards you, or your kind. You have the same right to choose as we all do. I do feel like the Lord would have me go to a new Forum, but I am curious to see how this one will crumble first. I have also noticed how nice and polite you preterists are lately. Playin' it cool, huh?? You know I'm on to ya!! Don't forget where I work. I am very good at catching conns and scams. But I would have to admit, out of all the preterists, you are the most easy going one, and I enjoyed debating you for a while, until I saw the dead end was a waste of time. See ya

Willis Deal · Apr 22, 2002

But davo... didn't Christ himself explain parables in such a way that each element DID mean something?

Willis Deal · Apr 22, 2002

I'm quite sure the LDS church came about because of Joseph Smith talking to an angel and getting some gold plates etc. If it had anything to do with endtimes it certainly must have been a secondary issue. Perhaps you meant 7th day Adventist? Of course that was simply a division of the JW's. Oh well, what should we do about such matters? Maybe if we had edited out Paul's discourse on tongues and gifts of the spirit we wouldn't have the charismatics, and perhaps if we hadn't emphasized John the Baptist so much we could have done away with those pesky Baptists and that would have certainly taken care of the problem since those others sprang from the baptists.

In case you hadn't noticed, people who are determined to make fools of themselves will do so, regardless of whether their beliefs have merit or not.

BULWARK · Apr 22, 2002

Is God unable to author a prophecy that has more than one fulfillment?

nothing is beyong god willis and I see alot of bible prophesy with a duel meaning and fulfillment to a degree.

you seem fairly adament about this multiple fullfilments but then you say this;

in 70AD you can defend your position so long as you interpret prophecy in a symbolic form, and prophecy loses its meaning. However, if you interpret prophecy to be literal/physical then you can see where 70ad is in error.

shorely the beliefs of 70 ad are relivent in your philosiphy of multiple fullfillments???
how can you believe this and yet you apear to believe that those that believe in the 70 AD prophesys are in error??

wouldn`t it be classed as a prophesy that had more than one fullfillment under your philosiphy willis??

Catchup · Apr 22, 2002

I do not like your condescending tone. No thanks, I refuse to drink of your lemonade! You can not turn and twist me as you do the scriptures!

Get yourselves over to my thread "Mark of the Beast!".
Give us your false teaching...it is all history...So what is the problem? Why can you not respond? I am flat out proving you wrong! Come defend your ideas.

Your conceptions are full of holes...but that does not make than Holy!

Now, what you need to understand about me is I am not upset with YOU. I am angry at the lies and false gospel that has taken over your spirit. I love you all as friends. Why else would I spend the time writing to you.

Jesus will not need you nor anyone else to proclaim to the world that he is here. All eyes will know when are Lord returns!

Matthew 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'C

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

LOVE

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Debbie · Apr 22, 2002

I think it was helpful to newcomers, for Rolling Thunder to explain preterism to newcomers.
I used to enjoy discussing end time prophecy here, but every futurist thread is taken off topic by preterists, who turn them into "preterism vs. futurism." I don't find that at all polite. On other threads we are sometimes reminded to stay on topic, but not when preterists go off topic to destroy the thread topic. I can only think then that this forum does not respect the futurist viewpoint.
There are many preterist forums, I just didnt realize this one was, since it provided an end time prophecy forum. I respect everyone's right to discuss a topic, but the futurist's right to stay on topic of futuristic end time threads is not being respected by preterists here.
For that reason I also have been looking at other forums, and stayed away from here.

GW · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal

In case you hadn't noticed, people who are determined to make fools of themselves will do so, regardless of whether their beliefs have merit or not.

Willis,

Take a few minutes and look up the 7th Day Adventists. Type in 1844 in a search on them and you will see that they hold this year sacred as the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven. 1844 WOULD have been Christ's second coming to earth, as they teach it, but Jesus was angry that the Christians who believed that his coming would be in 1844 still were celebrating a Sunday sabbath -- so Jesus chose NOT to come but only set aside a new group that would rightly follow the Saturday sabbath so Jesus could return -- they later called themselves the 7th Day Adventists.

Where did the 1844 come from? Baptist minister William Miller was the Hal Lindsey of his day. A well-meaning, God-fearing evangelical. Miller had all the charts and math worked out and nearly 250,000 mainstream Christians believed they were in the final years along with him.

The whole thing was a disastrous flub (like today's entimes hysterias), but the 7th Day Adventists and JWs were given birth out of this CHRISTIAN endtimes hysteria.

GW

Willis Deal · Apr 22, 2002

I think you missed my point. Those events which had a literal/physical fulfillment in 70AD are a valid example of a fulfillment, however, those elements that depend solely upon a 'spiritual' or 'symbolic' fulfillment cannot be proven to have occured, therein lies the error. I'm sure that a creative person can choose any year at random and assign a symbolic meaning to prophecy and 'show' that all prophecy was fulfilled in any given year. That doesn't prove that God intended the prophecy to be fulfilled in that way, it just shows how elastic the symbolic interpretation of prophecy can be, and the simple fact that it is so elastic makes heavy use of that sort of interpretation worthless as a guide to studyiing prophecy.

Catchup · Apr 22, 2002

GW.. What is your point!
Yes we know that Jesus has not came back yet!
Yes, we know that these people were wrong!
Yes, we know that you are wrong too!

LOVE

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Josiah · Apr 22, 2002

GW -

I was really not referring to any specific end-time doctrine, per se, but the eager anticipation of our Lord's return, which appears to be imminent based on current events. The first century church also awaited the Lord's return eagerly and hoped HE would return in their lifetime as many people have for centuries.

Romans 8

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Looking forward to meeting you all one day!

Josiah · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

You are a Child of God, Josiah!

I very much liked reading your post. I liked what you had to say. Thanks!

Thank you very much! It's sometimes hard to remember who we really are (in Christ). Who can comprehend it?

Debbie · Apr 22, 2002

Preterists, as mentioned previously by a preterist, usually form/attend their own church group because they fall more into a cult belief system, different form regular church.
They are basically followers of Josephus, a historian.
They believe that Jesus already came a 2nd time, & that the judgement books have already been opened, that satan has already been bound, that we are living in the new heaven & new earth, that in the past people bought or sold a loaf of bread with a spiritual mark of the beast(666) in their hand or forehead. (THey just can't explain how).
It's close to reincarnation in that this world we live in now is the new heaven & will never pass away & we just keep on keeping on, since the judgment books have already been opened.
Also, MOST preterists, but not all, believe that they are "chosen"
& futurists are not. They believe that Jesus did not die for all men, just the "chosen", therefore, those preterists believe in a different Jesus.

davo · Apr 22, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
But davo... didn't Christ himself explain parables in such a way that each element DID mean something?

G'day Willis -you are in deed correct, however what you may have missed is this: when it comes to Jesus' PARABLES, Jesus always gave the interpretation -leaving no room for mindless baseless speculations. And when it came to specific elements [as you put it] where he meant something other, he explains it. This is in reference to parables. And when Jesus does, it is beholden to us not to go adding to the Scriptures saying they mean something else.

Blessings mate.

davo

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