Fully God and Fully Man, how does that work?

[disciple Clint]

Because those who can answer such questions were driven out when their answers weren't liked.

now are you going to try to apply that to everyone since 325 A.D.? come on now, join the party.

 

[Randy777]

now are you going to try to apply that to everyone since 325 A.D.? come on now, join the party.

I follow Him
This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

Your foundation is Mystery.
something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain.

 

[The Liturgist]

Because those who can answer such questions were driven out when their answers weren't liked.

That’s not true; Arians persecuted Christians from the end of the reign of St. Constantius until well into the reign of St. Theodosius, so from roughly 336 to 386 AD, that being 50 years, and as the Western Empire crumbled, Ostrogothic, Visigothic and Vandal tribes that had been converted to Arianism conquered Southern Europe and North Africa; those in Italy were eventually converted back to Christianity, but those in the Middle East, North Africa and Spain converted to Islam, and continued persecuting Christians until driven out of Spain, and continue persecuting Christians in the Middle East even today.

 

[GenemZ]

7. Nestorians, another group of early Christians, believed that the human and divine persons of Jesus remained separate; thus for them “Jesus Christ” and “the Son of God” are not quite one and the same. Nestorian churches remained active in Persia and China as late as the eighth century.

1. Arians have been called the “archetypal” Christian heretics; accusations of Arianism have been made in almost every century since the fourth. Taking its name from an Egyptian priest, Arius, this heresy holds that Jesus, while the son of God, is neither eternal nor as fully divine as God the father.
Top 10 Heresies in the History of Christianity

Sabellianism: Sabellianism is named for its founder Sabellius (fl. 2nd century). It is sometimes referred to as modalistic monarchianism. The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died.

Docetism: The name comes from the Greek word dokesis, meaning "to seem." Along the same lines as Sabellianism, Docetism says that Christ was not a real human being and did not have a real human body. He only seemed to be human to us. In a nutshell...

Monophysitism: Monophysite comes from the Greek words for "one body." This heresy says that Jesus Christ was a joining of the eternal Logos with the human person Jesus, which occured at incarnation. He therefore is two separate natures joined in one body. Monophysitism is very much alive in several present-day Egyptian and Middle Eastern sects of Christianity.

Adoptionism: Adoptionism says that Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception, at which point he developed a divine nature. Later versions sometimes suggest that he was adopted later, such as when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

Nestorianism: Supposedly, Nestorius, Patriarch of Antioch (fl. 410), believed that Jesus Christ had two natures -- man and God -- which remained separate throughout his period on earth. This is not really what Nestor said (although he did deny virgin birth) but the name stuck. You can still find a few Nestorian churches in Iran.

Socianism: A version of Arianism called Socianism (from the Latin socius, meaning "companion), simply says that Jesus was an extraordinary man. This heresy still lives on in two very different forms, the Unitarians and the Jehova's Witnesses.
Early Christian Heresies

How did the two natures relate? Where they blended together in one nature? or what? I am only interested in what the Orthodox Doctrine is.

The real question not asked?

How could Jesus even have two natures in union?

How do the two natures interact, and why would God have it that way?

 

[The Liturgist]

The real question not asked?

How could Jesus even have two natures in union?

How do the two natures interact, and why would God have it that way?

The Chalcedonian (Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox) and Miaphysite (Oriental Orthodox) doctrine is that there is a union of the two natures in one hypostasis, and God has that way so as to be consubstantial with us through the person of Jesus Christ, God the Son, who is of one divine essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and also shares our human nature. The interaction of the two can be characterized by the principle of communicatio idiomatum, in which most properties that one can apply to the human nature are communicated to the divine, and vice versa. Thus, we have Jesus Christ as fully God and fully human, at the same time, and this ensures that we are literally created and indeed recreated in the Image of God.

This is really the fulcrum of the economy of salvation, and once I realized it, it was an incredible breakthrough in my understanding of Christianity.

 

[GenemZ]

The Chalcedonian (Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox) and Miaphysite (Oriental Orthodox) doctrine is that there is a union of the two natures in one hypostasis, and God has that way so as to be consubstantial with us through the person of Jesus Christ, God the Son, who is of one divine essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and also shares our human nature. The interaction of the two can be characterized by the principle of communicatio idiomatum, in which most properties that one can apply to the human nature are communicated to the divine, and vice versa. Thus, we have Jesus Christ as fully God and fully human, at the same time, and this ensures that we are literally created and indeed recreated in the Image of God.

This is really the fulcrum of the economy of salvation, and once I realized it, it was an incredible breakthrough in my understanding of Christianity.

Was the pre-incarnate Lord God of Israel possessing two natures in union? The answer is... 'yes.'

God is spirit in nature (John 4:23-24)

Man is soul in nature.

Soul is not spirit, and spirit is not soul, though both are immaterial and invisible in the physical realm. They are two different life forms.

There are OT passages that reveal something startling. That the Lord God of Israel was having both soul and spirit essence in union. No body was yet provided which was to come later through Mary's virgin pregnancy.

Jehovah and Soul in union = Lord God of Israel.


And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient
because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the
wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates."
Ps 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to
Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of
assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14



Note! God's essence is not 'soul essence" Deity is 'spirit' in essence.

The Lord God of Israel was being a union of soul and Deity. His soul was the soul who became as the man Jesus. He was utilizing his Soul of Jehovah to accomplish it. He denied Himself of what he had know with the powers of God to do so.

That is why Jesus as a man could speak from his soul and tell everyone that before Abraham was alive that He was eternally existing. For what Jesus said was spoken from the soul of Jehovah. Which soul was the second nature in the union of the Son of God.

Its that special union of Soul and Deity that differentiates the Son from the Father. For the Father is 'spirit' in nature only. No second nature in union for the Father. Its the Father's Deity that the Son shares in union with His Soul! That is how the Father and the Son are One and the same God. Just expressed differently by means of the expression of the Soul, so we as souls, can learn to relate to God in a manner that a soul can understand! John 1:18

grace and peace ..........

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Monophysitism: Monophysite comes from the Greek words for "one body." This heresy says that Jesus Christ was a joining of the eternal Logos with the human person Jesus, which occured at incarnation. He therefore is two separate natures joined in one body. Monophysitism is very much alive in several present-day Egyptian and Middle Eastern sects of Christianity.

No it isn't but Miaphysitism is.

Miaphysitism - Wikipedia

"To avoid being confused with Eutychians, the Oriental Orthodox Churches reject the label "Monophysite". Coptic Metropolitan Bishop of Damiette declared it a misnomer to call them Monophysites, for "they always confessed the continuity of existence of the two natures in the one incarnate nature of the Word of God. Non[e] of the natures ceased to exist because of the union and the term 'Mia Physis' denoting the incarnate nature is completely different from the term 'Monophysites'. [...] The Oriental Orthodox do not believe in a single nature in Jesus Christ but rather a united divine-human nature."[9]"


What's different in Dyophysitism and Miaphysitism?

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

7. Nestorians, another group of early Christians, believed that the human and divine persons of Jesus remained separate; thus for them “Jesus Christ” and “the Son of God” are not quite one and the same. Nestorian churches remained active in Persia and China as late as the eighth century.

1. Arians have been called the “archetypal” Christian heretics; accusations of Arianism have been made in almost every century since the fourth. Taking its name from an Egyptian priest, Arius, this heresy holds that Jesus, while the son of God, is neither eternal nor as fully divine as God the father.
Top 10 Heresies in the History of Christianity

Sabellianism: Sabellianism is named for its founder Sabellius (fl. 2nd century). It is sometimes referred to as modalistic monarchianism. The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died.

Docetism: The name comes from the Greek word dokesis, meaning "to seem." Along the same lines as Sabellianism, Docetism says that Christ was not a real human being and did not have a real human body. He only seemed to be human to us. In a nutshell...

Monophysitism: Monophysite comes from the Greek words for "one body." This heresy says that Jesus Christ was a joining of the eternal Logos with the human person Jesus, which occured at incarnation. He therefore is two separate natures joined in one body. Monophysitism is very much alive in several present-day Egyptian and Middle Eastern sects of Christianity.

Adoptionism: Adoptionism says that Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception, at which point he developed a divine nature. Later versions sometimes suggest that he was adopted later, such as when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

Nestorianism: Supposedly, Nestorius, Patriarch of Antioch (fl. 410), believed that Jesus Christ had two natures -- man and God -- which remained separate throughout his period on earth. This is not really what Nestor said (although he did deny virgin birth) but the name stuck. You can still find a few Nestorian churches in Iran.

Socianism: A version of Arianism called Socianism (from the Latin socius, meaning "companion), simply says that Jesus was an extraordinary man. This heresy still lives on in two very different forms, the Unitarians and the Jehova's Witnesses.
Early Christian Heresies

How did the two natures relate? Where they blended together in one nature? or what? I am only interested in what the Orthodox Doctrine is.

Simple. Imagine God is a man. But not all men are God. There you have it.

 

[GenemZ]

Simple. Imagine God is a man. But not all men are God. There you have it.

Rather than imagining? No need to. For, before the Lord God of Israel made himself to be Incarnate? Even before a human body was provided to make himself become as a man? In heaven as the Lord God of Israel, He was already being manifested as two natures in union.

His second nature is not about having a human body. The second nature of the Lord is his "soul." As the Lord God over the Jews He spoke of Himself as having two natures. Deity + Soul.

Here we can see this mentioned in the Torah.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14
​

Jesus made it clear that Deity (God) is not 'soul' in essence. Yet about the Lord Jehovah of Israel, it states consisted of both Deity and Soul. Two natures = Union.

But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Jn 4:23-24
​

grace and peace ........

 

[disciple Clint]

Rather than imagining? No need to. For, before the Lord God of Israel made himself to be Incarnate? Even before a human body was provided to make himself become as a man? In heaven as the Lord God of Israel, He was already being manifested as two natures in union.

His second nature is not about having a human body. The second nature of the Lord is his "soul." As the Lord God over the Jews He spoke of Himself as having two natures. Deity + Soul.

Here we can see this mentioned in the Torah.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14
​

Jesus made it clear that Deity (God) is not 'soul' in essence. Yet about the Lord Jehovah of Israel, it states consisted of both Deity and Soul. Two natures = Union.

But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Jn 4:23-24
​

grace and peace ........

how do you see that as being a belief in the Trinity?

 

[disciple Clint]

Rather than imagining? No need to. For, before the Lord God of Israel made himself to be Incarnate? Even before a human body was provided to make himself become as a man? In heaven as the Lord God of Israel, He was already being manifested as two natures in union.

His second nature is not about having a human body. The second nature of the Lord is his "soul." As the Lord God over the Jews He spoke of Himself as having two natures. Deity + Soul.

Here we can see this mentioned in the Torah.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14
​

Jesus made it clear that Deity (God) is not 'soul' in essence. Yet about the Lord Jehovah of Israel, it states consisted of both Deity and Soul. Two natures = Union.

But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Jn 4:23-24
​

grace and peace ........

Well maybe not that simple since Jesus is 100% man as well as 100% God, one person but two natures, one nature is in every respect the same as our human nature with the exception of sin, the other nature is God.

 

[GenemZ]

Well maybe not that simple since Jesus is 100% man as well as 100% God, one person but two natures, one nature is in every respect the same as our human nature with the exception of sin, the other nature is God.

Its staring you in your face.....

Pray that God opens your eyes.

The Lord God of Israel (the Son of God) always had two natures.

Do you not know that man is a soul? Deity (God) is spirit? That the Lord God of Israel was having both natures - in union?

This is all about the Trinity. For in this case, it reveals the difference that distinguishes the Son from the Father. The Son has two natures. The Father is only one nature, that being God only.

Read those Scriptures again, please. Its staring you right in the face. Two natures in One! Prior to the Incarnation Jesus Christ was in Heaven as the Lord God of Israel having both Deity and Soul in union. Human nature and God in One!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel.
Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Look! Jesus made it clear that Deity (God) is not 'soul' in essence. That God is "spirit" and not "soul!"

But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Jn 4:23-24​

God is spirit. Jesus just said so!

Yet? About the Lord Jehovah of Israel prior to the Incarnation? Before Jesus came to earth? It states He consisted of both Deity and Soul as the Lord God of Israel! That's two natures = Union.

In the Old Testament the one destined to come as Jesus (the Soul of Jehovah) we see Him ruling over the Jews!

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

​

God is not Soul!

God is spirit in essence!

Yet, we see the Lord Jehovah having both natures in union, even prior to the Incarnation!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel.
Jdges 10:16​

grace and peace ........

 

[disciple Clint]

Its staring you in your face.....

Pray that God opens your eyes.

The Lord God of Israel (the Son of God) always had two natures.

Do you not know that man is a soul? Deity (God) is spirit? That the Lord God of Israel was having both natures - in union?

This is all about the Trinity. For in this case, it reveals the difference that distinguishes the Son from the Father. The Son has two natures. The Father is only one nature, that being God only.

Read those Scriptures again, please. Its staring you right in the face. Two natures in One! Prior to the Incarnation Jesus Christ was in Heaven as the Lord God of Israel having both Deity and Soul in union. Human nature and God in One!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject
you.' I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My
people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve
Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel.
Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Look! Jesus made it clear that Deity (God) is not 'soul' in essence. That God is "spirit" and not "soul!"

But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship
the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him.
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Jn 4:23-24​

God is spirit. Jesus just said so!

Yet? About the Lord Jehovah of Israel prior to the Incarnation? Before Jesus came to earth? It states He consisted of both Deity and Soul as the Lord God of Israel! That's two natures = Union.

In the Old Testament the one destined to come as Jesus (the Soul of Jehovah) we see Him ruling over the Jews!

“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14​

God is not Soul! God is spirit in essence! Yet, we see the Lord Jehovah having both natures in union even prior to the Incarnation!

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve
Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel.
Jdges 10:16​

grace and peace ........

God has one nature but three persons, the nature is God, the persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you do not accept that you either do not understand or do not accept the Holy Trinity.

 

[GenemZ]

God has one nature but three persons, the nature is God, the persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you do not accept that you either do not understand or do not accept the Holy Trinity.

God in essence is only one nature. God is immutable. He can not change.

The Son is God and a Soul, being two natures in one function. The Soul of Jesus being as God's interpreter of Deity to the souls of humans in a manner that souls will relate to.

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Jn 14:9​

To see Jesus is to see the Father as interpreted by the Soul of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For no one has seen God without Jesus making Him known as God's interpreter to man.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." Jn 1:18
​

Just because something frustrates and confuses us does not make it false. God first reveals what is to be understood, before it is understood.

grace and peace .........

 

[GenemZ]

God has one nature but three persons, the nature is God, the persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you do not accept that you either do not understand or do not accept the Holy Trinity.

God is God = one nature.
What makes the Son and Holy Spirit different from the Father is the fact that both have two natures, and the Father has only one nature. All three share in the same nature as God the Father.

Its God the Father being communicated through the second nature that makes the Son and Holy Spirit unique.

The Son is God being expressed through the nature of men, a Soul. And, the Holy Spirit is God being expressed through the same essence as angels. For angels are 'spirit' in essence.

 

[disciple Clint]

God is God = one nature.
What makes the Son and Holy Spirit different from the Father is the fact that both have two natures, and the Father has only one nature. All three share in the same nature as God the Father.

Its God the Father being communicated through the second nature that makes the Son and Holy Spirit unique.

The Son is God being expressed through the nature of men, a Soul. And, the Holy Spirit is God being expressed through the same essence as angels. For angels are 'spirit' in essence.

NO, sorry but God is simple, He does not have multiple natures, where did you come up with that teaching?

 

[GenemZ]

NO, sorry but God is simple, He does not have multiple natures, where did you come up with that teaching?

I am surprised you are asking. If Jesus was only one nature he could never be as a man. Unless you deny the Deity of Christ? Do you?

Concerning Jesus, the Chalcedonian Creed states, his two natures are without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. Jesus is one.

The dual nature of Christ is a well known and highly accepted teaching among many churches.
What Is the Hypostatic Union?

The Chalcedonian Creed
https://www.theopedia.com/chalcedonian-creed

grace and peace .........

 

[GenemZ]

God has one nature but three persons, the nature is God, the persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you do not accept that you either do not understand or do not accept the Holy Trinity.

If God has only one nature as the Trinity there could be no trinity.

What would make it possible to have three personalities?

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

God is God = one nature.
What makes the Son and Holy Spirit different from the Father is the fact that both have two natures, and the Father has only one nature. All three share in the same nature as God the Father.

Its God the Father being communicated through the second nature that makes the Son and Holy Spirit unique.

The Son is God being expressed through the nature of men, a Soul. And, the Holy Spirit is God being expressed through the same essence as angels. For angels are 'spirit' in essence.

What good does this do you?

 

[GenemZ]

What good does this do you?

It does all of us good to understand God better..

If Jesus did not have two natures? No one could truly know God as He wants to be known by man.

For its by means of His human nature that the Lord takes what transcends our ability to understand about God, and translates and interprets God to man, in terms that men can relate to.

How do we know this? John 1:18 tells us...

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.​

The Greek in that verse indicates the following:

[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].​

That translation aspect is from the Amplified Bible.

I learned of this factor from a wonderful pastor who studied and taught from the Greek. Pastor Ralph G. Braun.