Full Preterism

[Andrewn]

What are the views of full preterits regarding the Millennium?

 

[mkgal1]

Mainly, full preterists view the millennium to have ENDED in 70 AD. I don't believe all full preterists are in agreement about the beginning of the millennium.

 

[HTacianas]

What are the views of full preterits regarding the Millennium?

Depending on how you define "full preterist", they believe the millennium was completed in the first century. You're going to find those who would argue against that blanket statement, again, based on how you define it.

 

[Andrewn]

Mainly, full preterists view the millennium to have ENDED in 70 AD. I don't believe all full preterists are in agreement about the beginning of the millennium.

Depending on how you define "full preterist", they believe the millennium was completed in the first century. You're going to find those who would argue against that blanket statement, again, based on how you define it.

Does this mean we're already in the new heaven and new earth?

 

[HTacianas]

Does this mean we're already in the new heaven and new earth?

To some of them, yes.

I have preterist views on a lot of things but I don't go that far.

 

[mkgal1]

Does this mean we're already in the new heaven and new earth?

To believe that we are in the new heaven and new earth isn't a full preterist distinction. I am a *partial* preterist and believe Scripture is testifying that "heaven and earth" is where God dwells with His people. In the Old Covenant - it was the physical Holy of Holies (first in the Tent of Meeting and then in the temples built by human hands). But.....I believe God always desired to dwell in the hearts of His people (and that's what the New Covenant brought). Another way of stating it is that "heaven and earth" is the agreement between God and His people. In my view - that all changed with the New Covenant - thus "new heaven (God's domain) and new earth (domain of His people)" come together in our hearts (not in a temple made with human hands....with a veil of separation between us and God).

 

[Andrewn]

Thx for the answers. In what sense was the Roman Empire / Beast killed in the 1st Century? And who were his heads and horns?

 

[HTacianas]

Thx for the answers. In what sense was the Roman Empire / Beast killed in the 1st Century? And who were his heads and horns?

If you look at the description of the "beast from the sea", Italy is a peninsula rising from the sea. The seven heads and ten horns were the puppet kingdoms aligned with Rome. Those who "receive power as kings one hour with the beast" were those puppet rulers who had an audience with the emperor to swear their allegiance and were granted vassal power. The beast itself was not destroyed, but turned on the woman riding the beast. The herodian dynasty was in fact a vassal of Rome and placated the beast for a time, even attempting to control it. The beast eventually turned on Jerusalem and destroyed her.

 

[mkgal1]

Thx for the answers. In what sense was the Roman Empire / Beast killed in the 1st Century? And who were his heads and horns?

Adam Maarschalk is a *partial* preterist - and he did a complete thesis paper related to that question. It's too lengthy to even get into. Here's a link to his study paper: Daniel 7: The Fourth Beast, 10 Horns, Three Horns, and a Little Horn

 

[Andrewn]

The beast itself was not destroyed, but turned on the woman riding the beast. The herodian dynasty was in fact a vassal of Rome and placated the beast for a time, even attempting to control it. The beast eventually turned on Jerusalem and destroyed her.

I usually thought of Babylon as Rome. But I'm also aware that NT Wright believes it's Jerusalem. The Beast was killed according to Dan 7:11.

 

[Andrewn]

Here's a link to his study paper: Daniel 7: The Fourth Beast, 10 Horns, Three Horns, and a Little Horn

The article considers the 4th beast to be the Jewish nation / government. Is this typical of full preterists?

 

[HTacianas]

I usually thought of Babylon as Rome. But I'm also aware that NT Wright believes it's Jerusalem. The Beast was killed according to Dan 7:11.

Rev 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Compare to:

Luk 21:20 - “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Luk 21:21 - “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

 

[ripple the car]

Rev 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Compare to:

Luk 21:20 - “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Luk 21:21 - “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

HTacians, do you see a contrasting link between Evangelical Zionism / worship of the modern state of Israel and the view that the harlot is Jerusalem?

Because it’s interesting… many Protestants identify the harlot as the Catholic Church, yet, of course, if the harlot is Jerusalem, this makes absolutely no sense, not that it makes sense anyway, unless every single genuinely Apostolic See (Alexandria, Constantinople, etc) is also the harlot…

But the idea of Revelation bring literal and futurist seems linked to extreme Christian Zionism and anti-Catholicism, too.

 

[HTacianas]

HTacians, do you see a contrasting link between Evangelical Zionism / worship of the modern state of Israel and the view that the harlot is Jerusalem?

Because it’s interesting… many Protestants identify the harlot as the Catholic Church, yet, of course, if the harlot is Jerusalem, this makes absolutely no sense, not that it makes sense anyway, unless every single genuinely Apostolic See (Alexandria, Constantinople, etc) is also the harlot…

But the idea of Revelation bring literal and futurist seems linked to extreme Christian Zionism and anti-Catholicism, too.

The harlot of the Revelation is in fact Jerusalem. It comes from the old testament:

Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

In the Revelation the harlot is seen riding the beast from the sea. Look at any map of Italy and you will see that it "rises from the sea". Italy is Rome. The harlot is riding the beast, believing that she can control it. See Herod's alliance with Rome. See also the diplomatic ties Israel had with Rome, even to the extent that Jews were exempt from worship of the cult of the Emperor. But eventually the beast turns on the harlot and consumes her. That was Rome's final destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

As to the evangelical notion of the Roman Church being the harlot, it stems solely from anti-Catholic protestantism. The Pope must be the antichrist and the harlot must be the Roman Church. That idea is poppycock.

 

[ripple the car]

The harlot of the Revelation is in fact Jerusalem. It comes from the old testament:

Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

In the Revelation the harlot is seen riding the beast from the sea. Look at any map of Italy and you will see that it "rises from the sea". Italy is Rome. The harlot is riding the beast, believing that she can control it. See Herod's alliance with Rome. See also the diplomatic ties Israel had with Rome, even to the extent that Jews were exempt from worship of the cult of the Emperor. But eventually the beast turns on the harlot and consumes her. That was Rome's final destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

As to the evangelical notion of the Roman Church being the harlot, it stems solely from anti-Catholic protestantism. The Pope must be the antichrist and the harlot must be the Roman Church. That idea is poppycock.

That is extremely interesting and extremely helpful. Thank you, HTacianas!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Agreed; the harlot of Revelation truly was Jerusalem before its AD 70 destruction.
Disagree that the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (Daniel's 4th Beast) was the same as the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the Wilderness. There are actually THREE beasts described in Revelation:

#1 The Revelation 13 Sea Beast with its then-current Roman phase had existed for 666 YEARS until John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60. The "seven heads" were the 7 hills that Rome was built upon, and the "ten horns" with crowns were ten Roman emperors.

#2 The Land Beast /False Prophet of Revelation 13, which was Judean in character, was led by its deceptive two-horned Sadducee and Pharisee power structure (remember, Christ called them "liars").

The "mark" of the Sea Beast, imposed by the Land Beast on its own people, was the Tyrian shekel with its abominable images and inscriptions, minted in Jerusalem, but having Rome's stamp of authorization on the reverse side. The high priesthood REQUIRED the use of this Rome-sanctioned Tyrian shekel coin for all temple sales and purchases, as well as payment of the yearly Temple tax. The exchange fee charged by the money-changers when switching foreign currency for this Tyrian shekel raked in huge profits for the greedy high priesthood, and earned them Christ's scornful "den of thieves" epithet.

#3 The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 found in the wilderness (also Judean in character) was dominated by the harlot Jerusalem riding on its back, who eventually turned on her and destroyed her.
This Scarlet Beast represented the independent kingdom nation of Israel which was once established under the Maccabees' victories, was subsequently lost when Pompey put Israel under tribute to Rome, and which re-emerged during the AD 66 Zealot rebellion (the "WAS", "IS NOT", and "IS *ABOUT TO* ARISE" fluctuating condition mentioned in Rev. 17:8).

The harlot Jerusalem, which had prostituted itself to gain Roman favor, was then ruling over the "kings of the earth" as John was writing. These "kings" were the HIGH PRIESTS of the land of Israel - not regular monarchs as we think of when we hear this term. The high priests at that time were serving by Rome's appointing them, with the vestments of the high priesthood stored in the Roman Antonia fortress, and doled out at Rome's discretion for the feast day celebrations.

As for the millennium, figuring out its inclusive dates is easier to identify than people think. The millennium was ENDED even before John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60. We know this by comparing Revelation 20:3 & 7 with Revelation 12:12. Satan was to be loosed at the END of the millennium's expiration for a "little season". John warned the saints that Satan was already loosed for that "short time", and had ALREADY come down to the earth in great wrath at that time, knowing he only had that short time longer to operate in the world. This means the millennium period had ALREADY ENDED before John put pen to parchment.

The millennium also came to an end with the "First Resurrection" event, as Rev. 12:5 tells us. That "First resurrection" was Christ the "First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the dead in AD 33. Count backward a literal thousand years from that year, and you arrive at the year Solomon laid the foundation stone for the Temple in 967/968 BC. The millennium amounted to a literal thousand years of a PHYSICAL temple worship system. A system that pointed forward as a type of Christ the "Chief cornerstone" of the True Temple not made with hands, which would be built of saints as "living stones" being laid upon Christ as our SPIRITUAL foundation stone.

And yes, we are currently in the New Heaven and New Earth conditions, just as Isaiah described them. These conditions listed in Isaiah 65 included the birth of offspring (which is not part of the eternal state), building homes, harvesting crops, dying, the presence of sinners, and prayers to God (which prayers would not be necessary if we were standing in God's presence eternally).
It's called a "New Earth" because the demonic realm has been purged out of it since AD 70, and it's called a "New Heaven" because it is now filled with the bodily-resurrected saints taken to heaven in AD 70. We now await the THIRD resurrection event in our future.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed; the harlot of Revelation truly was Jerusalem before its AD 70 destruction.
Disagree that the Sea Beast of Rev. 13 (Daniel's 4th Beast) was the same as the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the Wilderness. There are actually THREE beasts described in Revelation:

#1 The Revelation 13 Sea Beast with its then-current Roman phase had existed for 666 YEARS until John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60. The "seven heads" were the 7 hills that Rome was built upon, and the "ten horns" with crowns were ten Roman emperors.

#2 The Land Beast /False Prophet of Revelation 13, which was Judean in character, was led by its deceptive two-horned Sadducee and Pharisee power structure (remember, Christ called them "liars").

The "mark" of the Sea Beast, imposed by the Land Beast on its own people, was the Tyrian shekel with its abominable images and inscriptions, minted in Jerusalem, but having Rome's stamp of authorization on the reverse side. The high priesthood REQUIRED the use of this Rome-sanctioned Tyrian shekel coin for all temple sales and purchases, as well as payment of the yearly Temple tax. The exchange fee charged by the money-changers when switching foreign currency for this Tyrian shekel raked in huge profits for the greedy high priesthood, and earned them Christ's scornful "den of thieves" epithet.

#3 The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 found in the wilderness (also Judean in character) was dominated by the harlot Jerusalem riding on its back, who eventually turned on her and destroyed her.
This Scarlet Beast represented the independent kingdom nation of Israel which was once established under the Maccabees' victories, was subsequently lost when Pompey put Israel under tribute to Rome, and which re-emerged during the AD 66 Zealot rebellion (the "WAS", "IS NOT", and "IS *ABOUT TO* ARISE" fluctuating condition mentioned in Rev. 17:8).

The harlot Jerusalem, which had prostituted itself to gain Roman favor, was then ruling over the "kings of the earth" as John was writing. These "kings" were the HIGH PRIESTS of the land of Israel - not regular monarchs as we think of when we hear this term. The high priests at that time were serving by Rome's appointing them, with the vestments of the high priesthood stored in the Roman Antonia fortress, and doled out at Rome's discretion for the feast day celebrations.

As for the millennium, figuring out its inclusive dates is easier to identify than people think. The millennium was ENDED even before John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60. We know this by comparing Revelation 20:3 & 7 with Revelation 12:12. Satan was to be loosed at the END of the millennium's expiration for a "little season". John warned the saints that Satan was already loosed for that "short time", and had ALREADY come down to the earth in great wrath at that time, knowing he only had that short time longer to operate in the world. This means the millennium period had ALREADY ENDED before John put pen to parchment.

millennium also came to an end with the "First Resurrection" event, as Rev. 12:5 tells us. That "First resurrection" was Christ the "First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the dead in AD 33.

But those saints died again. Isn't Biblical resurrection from the dead permanent?

Count backward a literal thousand years from that year, and you arrive at the year Solomon laid the foundation stone for the Temple in 967/968 BC. The millennium amounted to a literal thousand years of a PHYSICAL temple worship system. A system that pointed forward as a type of Christ the "Chief cornerstone" of the True Temple not made with hands, which would be built of saints as "living stones" being laid upon Christ as our SPIRITUAL foundation stone.

And yes, we are currently in the New Heaven and New Earth conditions, just as Isaiah described them. These conditions listed in Isaiah 65 included the birth of offspring (which is not part of the eternal state), building homes, harvesting crops, dying, the presence of sinners, and prayers to God (which prayers would not be necessary if we were standing in God's presence eternally).
It's called a "New Earth" because the demonic realm has been purged out of it since AD 70, and it's called a "New Heaven" because it is now filled with the bodily-resurrected saints taken to heaven in AD 70.

So Peter got it wrong when he called the new earth the "home of righteousness" and located the new heaven and new earth after everything is destroyed by fire, with the elements melting in the heat
(2 Peter 3:10-13)?

We now await the THIRD resurrection event in our future.

When was the second resurrection?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Clare73,

Sure, Biblical resurrection for the saints is a permanent condition. It was also a permanent condition for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected "First-fruits" saints also. It is a common misunderstanding that they died again - which has no actual scriptural proof, and is just an assumption. Dying again is not even possible for a resurrected saint, as Hebrews 9:27 says that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment". ONCE means no double jeopardy when it comes to our physical death experience. In the same way that Jesus only died the ONE time, with death having no more dominion over Him, neither can death have dominion once again over any of the resurrected saints. For the saints, once raised, always raised, in the same way that once saved, always saved. Jeopardize one and you jeopardize the other.

Never said that Peter in II Peter 3 got it wrong. "Wherein dwelleth righteousness" does not say "wherein dwelleth NOTHING BUT righteousness, with absolutely no evil present in the new heavens and new earth." We will have to wait for the final resurrection when God purges this earth of all remaining human evil for that to be the state of things in this world. Even Revelation 22:15 has dogs, liars, adulterers and murderers, etc., and all manner of evil dwelling outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. This is what we have presently in this world. Within the New Jerusalem where we as saints presently dwell, God looks at us as vicariously spotless, covered with Christ's perfection. Outside the open gates of the New Jerusalem, however, evil humanity is still a present reality.

The earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) truly WAS purged by literal fire in the AD 66-70 era. Jesus during His ministry said he had come to send fire on the earth, and that He wished it was already kindled in His days (Luke 12:49). The city of Jerusalem was described by Josephus to be entirely engulfed in flames at the close of the siege in AD 70. Temple, genealogical records, high priesthood system - all were either obliterated, turned into ashes, or torn down to the last stone. The Temple's gold literally melted between the stones, and was scavenged by the Roman soldiers. "Fervent heat" indeed. Archaeology has revealed this preserved AD 70 ash layer at the Siebenberg house museum in the Old City sector of Jerusalem, if one needs physical evidence.

The second resurrection with its judgment at Christ's return, (which the Apostle Paul told both Timothy and Felix was "about to be" - II Tim. 4:1 and Acts 24:15), was a very particular date prophesied long before in Daniel 12:11-13. That very specific 1,335th day for the resurrection (that Daniel himself would participate in) fell on the actual Pentecost feast day in AD 70, which was 45 days after Titus had arrived to lay siege to Jerusalem, just after Passover week had begun. Christ bodily returned on that 1,335th day in AD 70 to take His resurrected saints back to heaven with Him, as Zechariah 14:4-7 predicted. We are even told what time of day it was also - between day and night towards evening time. And the rubble landslide evidence from the Mount of Olives earthquake on that occasion is still lying in the Hinnom valley today - Christ's "calling card", so to speak, blocking up the Hinnom valley as far as Azal, and showing that He came and left from that prophesied Mount of Olives location on the east of Jerusalem.

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare73,

Sure, Biblical resurrection for the saints is a permanent condition. It was also a permanent condition for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected "First-fruits" saints also. It is a common misunderstanding that they died again - which has no actual scriptural proof, and is just an assumption. Dying again is not even possible for a resurrected saint, as Hebrews 9:27 says that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment".

ONCE means no double jeopardy when it comes to our physical death experience. In the same way that Jesus only died the ONE time, with death having no more dominion over Him, neither can death have dominion once again over any of the resurrected saints. For the saints, once raised, always raised, in the same way that once saved, always saved. Jeopardize one and you jeopardize the other.

So where are they now?
Did they ascend with Jesus?

Never said that Peter in II Peter 3 got it wrong. "Wherein dwelleth righteousness" does not say "wherein dwelleth NOTHING BUT righteousness, with absolutely no evil present in the new heavens and new earth." We will have to wait for the final resurrection when God purges this earth of all remaining human evil for that to be the state of things in this world. Even Revelation 22:15 has dogs, liars, adulterers and murderers, etc., and all manner of evil dwelling outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

But if Revelation 22:15 is understood to be future, they would simply be in damnation, or
if understood to be in the present, where is the New Jerusalem that the people are outside it?

This is what we have presently in this world. Within the New Jerusalem where we as saints presently dwell, God looks at us as vicariously spotless, covered with Christ's perfection. Outside the open gates of the New Jerusalem, however, evil humanity is still a present reality.

The earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) truly WAS purged by literal fire in the AD 66-70 era. Jesus during His ministry said he had come to send fire on the earth, and that He wished it was already kindled in His days (Luke 12:49). The city of Jerusalem was described by Josephus to be entirely engulfed in flames at the close of the siege in AD 70. Temple, genealogical records, high priesthood system - all were either obliterated, turned into ashes, or torn down to the last stone. The Temple's gold literally melted between the stones, and was scavenged by the Roman soldiers. "Fervent heat" indeed. Archaeology has revealed this preserved AD 70 ash layer at the Siebenberg house museum in the Old City sector of Jerusalem, if one needs physical evidence.

The second resurrection with its judgment at Christ's return, (which the Apostle Paul told both Timothy and Felix was "about to be" - II Tim. 4:1 and Acts 24:15), was a very particular date prophesied long before in Daniel 12:11-13.

That very specific 1,335th day for the resurrection (that Daniel himself would participate in) fell on the actual Pentecost feast day in AD 70, which was 45 days after Titus had arrived to lay siege to Jerusalem, just after Passover week had begun. Christ bodily returned on that 1,335th day in AD 70 to take His resurrected saints back to heaven with Him, as Zechariah 14:4-7 predicted.

So there was a final judgment for some of the Church, but not all,
and there are some resurrected spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44) of the Church in heaven now with Christ, but not all?

Do we find indication of two final judgments of the Church anywhere in the NT, or
is this extra-Biblical?

Are you saying the body of Christ is in three phases now,
one composed of saints in heaven in their spiritual bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44) now,
one composed of the departed spirits in heaven without bodies now, and
one composed of the living on earth in their natural bodies now?

Do we find indication of the body of Christ at some point existing in three phases anywhere in the NT, or is this extra-Biblical?

We are even told what time of day it was also - between day and night towards evening time. And the rubble landslide evidence from the Mount of Olives earthquake on that occasion is still lying in the Hinnom valley today - Christ's "calling card", so to speak, blocking up the Hinnom valley as far as Azal, and showing that He came and left from that prophesied Mount of Olives location on the east of Jerusalem.

 

[Clare73]

.