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3 Resurrections

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1 Cor 15:51

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Cor 15:51

I've gone over this text before recently on other posts. That is NOT the living believers being given a translation-type change of the body in 1 Cor. 15:51. It says specifically "the DEAD will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." Only a change for the DEAD bodies of believers is discussed in this entire context. This is consistent with the Hebrews 9:27 rule that all are appointed ONCE to die. What you propose would create a complete contradiction between these scriptures.

God is spirit, so there is no need for our physical bodies to be somehow composed and resurrected.

God the Father is Spirit. But Jesus Christ is more than Spirit. He is "the image of the invisible God". He still retains today in heaven his glorified, resurrected human body form that ascended into the heavens back in Acts 1:9. He "continueth ever" in that same human form in order to be our representative high priest after the order of Melchizedek. And He is still being called by the title "Son of Man" at His return, meaning His human resurrected form is still in existence. Christ is our bridegroom with whom the church will have a perfected union of body, soul, and spirit in the final resurrection. You have a strange idea of a typical marriage union if you think the physical plays no part in this.

One of the main reasons believers currently have the "earnest" of the Holy Spirit within is to provide a "down payment" assurance of our future bodily resurrection, which all the saints are to hope for.

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:8

The context of this was the persecuted Paul longing for his spirit to depart from his body so that his spirit could be with Christ. But Paul never taught that the ultimate destiny for believers was the eradication of their dead bodies so that they would ultimately perish. That was a fate for the wicked to experience in the judgment - not the saints.

Instead, Paul reminded the believers in 2 Corinthians 4:14 that "He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you." This teaches a resurrection for us of the same kind that the Lord Jesus had. It is then that the believers are bodily presented as being completely faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.
 
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trophy33

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This is consistent with the Hebrews 9:27 rule that all are appointed ONCE to die. What you propose would create a complete contradiction between these scriptures.
"I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed."
1 Cor 15:31


Instead, Paul reminded the believers in 2 Corinthians 4:14 that "He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you." This teaches a resurrection for us of the same kind that the Lord Jesus had. It is then that the believers are bodily presented as being completely faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.
"To raise up" can have multiple meanings. It does not have to be about recreating of the physical body.

For example the same Greek word is used here:
"And Joseph awoke from his sleep"
Mt 1:24
 
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"I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed."
1 Cor 15:31

You didn't mention the translation you are using, but it is erroniously biased in the way they have phrased it . The phrase means "NONE of us shall sleep". NONE of the believers would remain asleep in death, but instead, ALL of the dead believers would be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This is comparable to the very same language found in 1 John 2:19. In that text, the many antichrists went out from among the believers so that it would be manifested that "they were NOT ALL of us". NONE of the antichrists belonged among the assembly - no exceptions.

When Paul said "we shall NOT ALL sleep", he also meant NONE of the believers - no exceptions - would be left behind in the grave. ALL would be "raised up".

To raise up" can have multiple meanings. It does not have to be about recreating of the physical body.

Yes, it can have multiple meanings in other texts, but if you pay attention to the comparison being made in this very same sentence, this "raising up" of the believers is identical to Christ being "raised up" from physical death. The very same Spirit which raised up Christ from the grave was also going to raise up the believers - by the same means, and with the same results. Paul's 2 Corinthians 4:14 context was speaking of persecution in his physical life, and of physically dying for Jesus's sake. Paul was anticipating this soon-coming bodily resurrection of the saints by a bodily-returning Christ back in AD 70. The very same kind of bodily resurrection event will be performed yet again for a final time in our future, when we also will have our bodies "raised up" in the "redemption of our body" (as in Romans 8:23).
 
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trophy33

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You didn't mention the translation you are using, but it is erroniously biased...


...Yes, it can have multiple meanings in other texts...
So, we just guess and we will see. The text is ambiguous and various people can have various opinions what it means.

Maybe body, maybe not. Maybe death, maybe not.
 
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So, we just guess and we will see. The text is ambiguous and various people can have various opinions what it means.

I have read that translating and interpreting negative statements in the Greek (like "not", or "none") is notoriously tricky to get right. Not being an original language expert, I can only read the variant translations of it, which does seem to indicate that this is a valid point.

But there are plenty of texts having no ambiguity at all about them which declare plainly the concept of the bodily resurrection of believers. The 2 Corinthians 4:14 text I brought up being one of them. Philippians 3:21 another, etc., etc.. If Full Preterists think they have to wipe this doctrine of a bodily resurrection of the saints off the map just so they can rightly hold to the AD 70 fulfillment of Revelation's revealed prophecies, this is totally unnecessary. Scripture teaches BOTH the bodily resurrection of the saints in AD 70 as promised multiple times, as well as there being a bodily resurrection for the saints in our future. But there was only one AD 70 "rapture" of only the resurrected saints - no translated living saints back then, or in our future either.
 
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trophy33

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If Full Preterists think they have to wipe this doctrine of a bodily resurrection of the saints....

To me, both is possible. Having just a spiritual resurrection/body, like people are having in the kingdom of God now, seems enough to me. I do not see what benefit would the resurrecting of the dead physical body add to it.

As Jesus said, anyone, who believes in Him, has already entered into eternal (spiritual) life:

Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
J 5:24

But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
J 6:50


I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.
J 11:26

And many other similar verses, mainly in the Gospel of John. So, the spiritual resurrection, life and death seems to be the main point, to me. While the main point of the traditional religion (sometimes called orthodox) seems to be around the physical resurrection.
 
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trophy33

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The 2 Corinthians 4:14 text I brought up being one of them. Philippians 3:21 another, etc., etc..

2 Cor 4:14 seems to be ambiguous to me, "rasing up" can be explained in several ways.
Php 3:21 seems to be specifically about the second coming of Christ and about the transformation of believers' bodies in those times.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Hey again Clare73,

As for the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected "First-fruits" saints, they did NOT ascend to heaven along with Christ in Acts 1. We know this, because Revelation 15:8 says that no man could enter the temple in heaven until the 7 plagues were fulfilled. Any resurrected saints such as the Matthew 27 ones remained on earth to serve in the early church as the "gifts" that Christ gave to men. These resurrected saints from that "multitude of captives" were identified as being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, as Ephesians 4:11 enumerated them.

We know that these "First-fruits" resurrected saints stayed on earth for a time to serve in the church, because the apostle Paul gave testimony in Romans 8:23 that "ourselves also, which HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." This is NOT the same as having the "fruit of the Spirit", such as love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. This was the church having the "FIRST-fruits" among them, which is something entirely different.

Romans 8:23 said that even the already-resurrected "Firstfruits" of the Spirit's work of redemption were eagerly waiting for the redemption of the physical body for the rest of the saints, since that is when they would all be raptured together to meet the Lord in the air (which happened in AD 70 on that 1,33th day, fulfilling the I Thess. 4 "rapture" text). The "rapture" event took all those saints who had ALREADY been made "alive" by resurrection but who had "remained" on earth, and then gathered them together with those who were newly-resurrected at Christ's second coming in AD 70. These all were taken to heaven then, according to Jesus's promise to "come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also." None but resurrected saints participated in that rapture. A "translation" type of change for living believers in the "rapture" was never promised in scripture anywhere. ALL are appointed to die the one time before their body is changed into an incorruptible state.

Yes, we do have scripture describing the saints in various phases of this process as the "body of Christ" being in heaven and on earth at the same time. Ephesians 1:10 is one such passage. The mystery made known to the church was "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE all things in Christ, BOTH WHICH ARE *IN HEAVEN* AND WHICH ARE *ON EARTH*; even in him:" This meant that those like the resurrected Matthew 27 saints that were then still "on earth" would be gathered together with the saints' spirits who were then waiting "in heaven" to be given their glorified, resurrected bodies when the dead in Christ would rise (in the second, AD 70 resurrection).

It is NOT "extra-biblical" to have another additional judgment. This is very simple to prove. We are told that "we must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ", so if it can be proved (and it can) that a first-century resurrection and judgment took place, then we, too, must have our "day in court" as well - only in a future event.

A simple way to determine a THIRD resurrection event for us in the future is to read the way the "Great Tribulation" is described in Matthew 24:21-30. Christ said that this particular "great tribulation" period would be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no NOR EVER *SHALL BE*." This means time would go marching forward, even AFTER the Great Tribulation, with various ordinary periods of tribulation for the saints, but with none in history that would ever be of the same kind as that which had taken place long before during the "Great Tribulation" period. (Christ's promised seven-fold demonic oppression of that generation of Israel in its "last state" was the main reason for the unprecedented, unduplicated "Great Tribulation" period. After that, God rid the world of the demonic and Satanic realm in AD 70, which can never again descend en masse on any city or nation again. Any evil at present in the world is humanity's own doing.)

We also read that "*IMMEDIATELY* AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS", that Christ would come in the clouds of heaven with great glory. Now, if Christ was to "IMMEDIATELY" return after the "Great Tribulation", and history would keep marching forward in time AFTER He had returned, then there simply MUST BE another bodily resurrection and judgment scheduled for the rest of us saints to participate in.

These THREE resurrection group events were timed to fall on the calendar at the same time of year that the three required OT harvest feasts were celebrated: at Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These three OT Mosaic feasts provided a living picture of how God as the "husbandman" would harvest the "precious fruit of the earth" by raising the bodies of his children out of the dust of the grave on those three separate occasions. We already know the Matthew 27:52-53 saints along with Christ fulfilled the Passover resurrection as the "First-fruits" raised from the dead. Since the 1,335th day with its prophesied resurrection fell on a Pentecost feast day in AD 70, that leaves the Feast of Tabernacles time of year that provided a type for the final third resurrection event in our future. Even a very young child can understand the symbolism of seeds being planted and a crop being harvested, compared to a harvest of dead saints coming to life again in glorified bodies out of the dust of the grave in a resurrection event.

James 5:7-8 makes this identical comparison. "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." The "early" and "latter rain" (with which Israel's harvests were tightly linked) provided the schedule for the 3 required harvest feast celebrations, since the rain falls at very predictable times for the crops in that region of the world. James was encouraging the saints to hang on patiently, because Christ as a judge was then "at the door", and His "latter rain" time of return in those "last days" had already drawn near as James was writing.

Oh, and the New Jerusalem is not in a physical location per se. It's as Isaiah described it in Isaiah 60, with its walls called "Salvation", and its gates called "Praise". The New Jerusalem is a spiritual city whose builder and maker is God, as Abraham understood it.
If Jesus came back in 70 AD and took all Christians with him then why do none of the early church fathers talk about it? And how did the church continue if it was taken? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
 
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trophy33

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If Jesus came back in 70 AD and took all Christians with him then why do none of the early church fathers talk about it? And how did the church continue if it was taken? This doesn’t make any sense to me.
We can speculate over various possibilities, but there is really no way to know, without being there.
 
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parousia70

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If Jesus came back in 70 AD and took all Christians with him then why do none of the early church fathers talk about it?

Please provide a scripture or two that would support the Bold.

And how did the church continue if it was taken? This doesn’t make any sense to me.

Again, what scripture teaches the Church is to be "taken" anywhere?

Are we not with Him already?
Is Matthew 18:20 false?:

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Please provide a scripture or two that would support the Bold.



Again, what scripture teaches the Church is to be "taken" anywhere?

Are we not with Him already?
Is Matthew 18:20 false?:

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.
Paul said so in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, also Matthew 24:40-41/Luke 17:34-35 the day of the son of man people will be taken and some left this is talking about what will happen when Jesus returns.1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 talks about our being gathered together with Jesus vs17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.I don’t know how it could be any clearer.
 
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parousia70

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Paul said so in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him,

Again, so Matthew 18:20 is...False?

also Matthew 24:40-41/Luke 17:34-35 the day of the son of man people will be taken and some left this is talking about what will happen when Jesus returns.

Right... Like the Flood where the Wicked were Taken away in judgment, and the Righteous were "left behind" on earth, so shall the coming of the son of man be:

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The Wicked are taken in Judgment, the righteous left behind.
I don't know how it could be any more clear.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 talks about our being gathered together with Jesus vs17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.I don’t know how it could be any clearer.

"and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST. Can't be any more Clear.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"

Then (NOT at the same time but AFTER that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

CLEARLY, Plainly, this is NOT a simultaneous event.

Resurrection of the Dead is for ONE category of People, THE DEAD.
That's why it's called "the Resurrection OF THE DEAD"
You have to Die first, before you can partake in the resurrection OF THE DEAD.

Only "the dead" rise in the "resurrection of the dead. The Living do not. They get "caught up" after "the resurrection of the dead." When? Once they are "the dead."

And we ALL have an appointment with Death, and AFTERWARD, the Judgment:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Hebrews9:27


Can't be any more clear.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Paul said so in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, also Matthew 24:40-41/Luke 17:34-35 the day of the son of man people will be taken and some left this is talking about what will happen when Jesus returns.1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 talks about our being gathered together with Jesus vs17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.I don’t know how it could be any clearer.

Please note that I am not a Full Preterist (though I do have some Partial Preterist views); however, outside of a mostly Dispensationalist interpretation involving a "rapture" of Christians into heaven the Christian Church is completely unaware of any such notion of Jesus coming to take Christians up into heaven. Indeed, when we read the passage here in 1 Thessalonians we see nothing about anyone being taken up into heaven, both the resurrected saints and still-living (but here glorified and transformed like the resurrected) meet the returning Lord Jesus at His coming. Jesus is coming down in the text, and the upward direction of the Faithful is not to go to heaven, but to meet the returning Lord in the air. We will ever be with the Lord, not floating up in the air, or up in heaven, but down here on God's good creation.

Christ's return is not to take the Church up into heaven (the ancient fathers have no knowledge of this, neither do any Christian theologians or churchmen up until the past couple hundred years, and can be chiefly attributed to John Darby in the early-mid 19th century). Rather Christ's return, as confessed in the Creed(s), is that He comes in glory to judge the living and the dead, and He brings with Him His everlasting kingdom.

As C.S. Lewis would put it, when the Author of the play comes onto the stage to take a bow, the play is over. When the Lord returns on the Last Day, this entire drama comes to a close: God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Please note that I am not a Full Preterist (though I do have some Partial Preterist views); however, outside of a mostly Dispensationalist interpretation involving a "rapture" of Christians into heaven the Christian Church is completely unaware of any such notion of Jesus coming to take Christians up into heaven. Indeed, when we read the passage here in 1 Thessalonians we see nothing about anyone being taken up into heaven, both the resurrected saints and still-living (but here glorified and transformed like the resurrected) meet the returning Lord Jesus at His coming. Jesus is coming down in the text, and the upward direction of the Faithful is not to go to heaven, but to meet the returning Lord in the air. We will ever be with the Lord, not floating up in the air, or up in heaven, but down here on God's good creation.

Christ's return is not to take the Church up into heaven (the ancient fathers have no knowledge of this, neither do any Christian theologians or churchmen up until the past couple hundred years, and can be chiefly attributed to John Darby in the early-mid 19th century). Rather Christ's return, as confessed in the Creed(s), is that He comes in glory to judge the living and the dead, and He brings with Him His everlasting kingdom.

As C.S. Lewis would put it, when the Author of the play comes onto the stage to take a bow, the play is over. When the Lord returns on the Last Day, this entire drama comes to a close: God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran
How are the dead who meet Jesus first still here on the earth? Tell me how are we like the Glorified Jesus? He could walk through walls , make himself not recognized by his own, floating up in the clouds to God . I can’t do that can you? Me thinks you are not dividing the scripture correctly.
 
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If Jesus came back in 70 AD and took all Christians with him then why do none of the early church fathers talk about it? And how did the church continue if it was taken? This doesn’t make any sense to me.

Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 gathered all the RESURRECTED SAINTS from every point of the compass. No ordinary living believers who had not died yet were to be included in that rapture. The reason why we do not (yet) have any written evidence speaking about this event is that all the Christians obeyed Christ's directive to FLEE from Judea and Jerusalem when they first saw armies surrounding Jerusalem (as happened in AD 66 with the Zealot armies aligned against the Roman troops under Cestius Gallus. If you as a Christian back then were not in the vicinity of Jerusalem, then you were not a direct eye-witness of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives.

The church continued to exist because the living believers who hadn't experienced death yet were still existing on earth after that AD 70 rapture. And as Christ promised, there would be continual growth of His kingdom until the end of fallen man's history on this planet and the final resurrection in our future.
 
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Again, what scripture teaches the Church is to be "taken" anywhere?

Are we not with Him already?
Is Matthew 18:20 false?:

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.

To have Christ's Spirit in our midst already is wonderful, but it is not the completion of our inheritance. We are promised a face-to-face fellowship with Christ in His glorified, bodily-resurrected form, seeing Him with our own resurrected, glorified body forms that will be made incorruptible - fitted for an eternity with Him. We are not yet face-to-face with our Redeemer, seeing Him with our own eyes, and not another's, as Job 19:26-27 once said. This is our hope which we have not yet seen, but we with patience wait for it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How are the dead who meet Jesus first still here on the earth?

The body is buried in the ground, that body is then raised upon the Last Day and glorified, in the same way the Lord was. The body is sown soulish and raised Spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:44), it is the Holy Spirit who quickens the body in the resurrection (Romans 8:11), hence the body in the resurrection is called Spiritual; in contrast to soulish--i.e. governed by the animal appetites and disordered passions of the flesh. That's why the dead are raised first, and then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them. This is also what the Apostle means when he writes "we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Tell me how are we like the Glorified Jesus? He could walk through walls , make himself not recognized by his own, floating up in the clouds to God . I can’t do that can you?

We aren't glorified until Christ's future and glorious coming, which isn't until the Last Day.

Me thinks you are not dividing the scripture correctly.

Possibly, but I think you probably misunderstood me at some point, given your question. I'm not sure what I said that led you to think I believed we are already glorified; as I very much don't. I believe, as the Church has always believed, in the future resurrection of the body at the Lord's return in glory on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70 gathered all the RESURRECTED SAINTS from every point of the compass. No ordinary living believers who had not died yet were to be included in that rapture. The reason why we do not (yet) have any written evidence speaking about this event is that all the Christians obeyed Christ's directive to FLEE from Judea and Jerusalem when they first saw armies surrounding Jerusalem (as happened in AD 66 with the Zealot armies aligned against the Roman troops under Cestius Gallus. If you as a Christian back then were not in the vicinity of Jerusalem, then you were not a direct eye-witness of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives.

The church continued to exist because the living believers who hadn't experienced death yet were still existing on earth after that AD 70 rapture. And as Christ promised, there would be continual growth of His kingdom until the end of fallen man's history on this planet and the final resurrection in our future.
So your saying Jesus returned in 70AD and took all the dead Christians but left all those still alive?
 
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trophy33

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So your saying Jesus returned in 70AD and took all the dead Christians but left all those still alive?
There are constant warnings throughout the gospels and letters that Christians should not "fall asleep" or else they will miss the wedding, right?

So there is no "all" or "nobody" dilemma. It seems the wedding was for the prepared ones.

Its hard to say what exactly "to be prepared" or "to watch" practically meant in daily life.
 
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There are constant warnings throughout the gospels and letters that Christians should not "fall asleep" or else they will miss the wedding, right?

So there is no "all" or "nobody" dilemma. It seems the wedding was for the prepared ones.

Its hard to say what exactly "to be prepared" or "to watch" practically meant in daily life.
So the wedding feast has already taken place as well?
 
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