Fulfilled vs. Abolished

[pinetree]

I can see that you do not reason through logic, but through your perceived understand of what you have been taught. You focus on words that you want to see and ignore what you choose not to see.[the larger picture]
I can see that discussing The Torah with you is Foolish. Titus 3:9
http://www.christianforums.com/t7389989-3/

What about the rest of the OT anyway?

Also..Why do so many focus on Moses,when we are Children of Abraham?

The law that came 430 years later,was temporary.It was because of sin,and also to make sin increase!

Romans 5:20


20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,


Galatians 3:19


19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

 

[pinetree]

Yes Steve this is why so many believers put themselves upon a merry-go-round. I believe that those verses have been misread by those who love to "proof text" to make things to read the way that they want it to be read.

For an example, I believe that "having abolished...law" isn't saying that our Lord Jesus Christ has rejected the righteous standards of the LAW, and after all that church of those days composed of Jews and Gentiles, and that is why Paul said "one new man", because the church of those days were mainly Jews. We need to see that in those days the Jewish believers actually witnessed to the Gentiles and in time there were more Gentiles in the churches than Jews.

Well, that is the way I see it.

Blessings.

Mate..
Those very ceremonial laws,seperated Jew from Gentile.

You were considered unclean,and not allowed in the temple.

That is why they had to be abolished,so we can become one man in the spirit.

That is why in Ephesians,it mentions the "dividing wall" of hostility.That wall was what kept YOU MATE,out of the temple.

That is why the temple is gone,the levitical priesthood,and the laws that seperated the 2 are gone.

Eph 2:14-15. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

If more people just read Acts 10 & 11,it is quite clear.

Peter knew that the Gentiles were unclean,and could not eat with them.Those laws had to be ABOLISHED...

A Gentile cannot be Torah observant,because he would only be trying to keep laws that seperated him from the Jews...

Paul and Peter stopped being Torah observant.

 

[cyberlizard]

Mate..
Those very ceremonial laws,seperated Jew from Gentile.

You were considered unclean,and not allowed in the temple.

That is why they had to be abolished,so we can become one man in the spirit.

That is why in Ephesians,it mentions the "dividing wall" of hostility.That wall was what kept YOU MATE,out of the temple.

That is why the temple is gone,the levitical priesthood,and the laws that seperated the 2 are gone.

Eph 2:14-15. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

If more people just read Acts 10 & 11,it is quite clear.

Peter knew that the Gentiles were unclean,and could not eat with them.Those laws had to be ABOLISHED...

A Gentile cannot be Torah observant,because he would only be trying to keep laws that seperated him from the Jews...

Paul and Peter stopped being Torah observant.

one of us needs to read more of the words of Moses a little more, the words which carried the very authority of God as it was He who gave it to Moses, the word established in the heavens and incidentally, any person who speaks against this Torah according to the OT (100% true) writings, has not the smallest crack of the light of dawn in them... they walk in darkness....

Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Num 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Num 9:14 And if a stranger sojourns among you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its rule, so shall he do. You shall have one statute, both for the sojourner and for the native."

Lev 16:29 "And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.

Lev 18:26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you

Num 35:15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there.


Seems the law was NOT just for Jews after all but for all Israel, consisting of those who were of direct Abrahamic descent and those who are children of his spirit (so to speak) - Ephesians 2 speaks of us who were once estranged from the covenantS (plural) of promise being brought into them and having the same rights as the native born.



Steve

 

[pinetree]

one of us needs to read more of the words of Moses a little more, the words which carried the very authority of God as it was He who gave it to Moses, the word established in the heavens and incidentally, any person who speaks against this Torah according to the OT (100% true) writings, has not the smallest crack of the light of dawn in them... they walk in darkness....

Exo 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you."

Num 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Num 9:14 And if a stranger sojourns among you and would keep the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its rule, so shall he do. You shall have one statute, both for the sojourner and for the native."

Lev 16:29 "And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.

Lev 18:26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you

Num 35:15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there.


Seems the law was NOT just for Jews after all but for all Israel, consisting of those who were of direct Abrahamic descent and those who are children of his spirit (so to speak) - Ephesians 2 speaks of us who were once estranged from the covenantS (plural) of promise being brought into them and having the same rights as the native born.



Steve

The story was unfolding.No offense,but your kinda stuck in Moses...

Look,the prophets knew something better was coming..GRACE!

Even Angels looked...
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

It was in the scriptures all along,something better then the law!

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Romans 3;21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

The promise came to Abraham,that we would be justified by faith,,

The law that was added 430 years later was temporary,until the seed came..

Guess what..IT CAME!JESUS!

The Jews sought justification,but it was not God's righteusness..

Israel's Unbelief

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.



The temple,the Levitical priesthood,animal sacrifices ..are all over now.

The law was nailed to a tree.

 

[NaLuvena]

Mate..
Those very ceremonial laws,seperated Jew from Gentile.

You were considered unclean,and not allowed in the temple.

That is why they had to be abolished,so we can become one man in the spirit.

That is why in Ephesians,it mentions the "dividing wall" of hostility.That wall was what kept YOU MATE,out of the temple.

That is why the temple is gone,the levitical priesthood,and the laws that seperated the 2 are gone.

Eph 2:14-15. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

If more people just read Acts 10 & 11,it is quite clear.

Peter knew that the Gentiles were unclean,and could not eat with them.Those laws had to be ABOLISHED...

A Gentile cannot be Torah observant,because he would only be trying to keep laws that seperated him from the Jews...

Paul and Peter stopped being Torah observant.

I thought the wall of hostility that Jesus tore down was the veil that hid the Holiest of Holies from us, and was off limits to ALL unclean people, whether Jew or Gentile.

Also, what proof do you have to say that Peter and Paul stopped observing the Torah? I don't follow you, my friend...

 

[cyberlizard]

The story was unfolding.No offense,but your kinda stuck in Moses...

Look,the prophets knew something better was coming..GRACE!

Even Angels looked...
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

It was in the scriptures all along,something better then the law!

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Romans 3;21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

The promise came to Abraham,that we would be justified by faith,,

The law that was added 430 years later was temporary,until the seed came..

Guess what..IT CAME!JESUS!

The Jews sought justification,but it was not God's righteusness..

Israel's Unbelief

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.



The temple,the Levitical priesthood,animal sacrifices ..are all over now.

The law was nailed to a tree.

the fact I dealt with your post should be the thing to take point with... stay on track with one subject matter before moving to the next... the shoddy technique is subterfuge and misdirection.

for all the people on the forum, show us from the writings of Moses himself where it is written that Jews and Gentiles are to have no dealings in the Torah.

If you are unable to do so then withdraw your claim, or simply acknowledge the fact that maybe you are wrong about this assertion.



Steve

p.s. with all due respect grace was available in the days before Jesus!

 

[pinetree]

I thought the wall of hostility that Jesus tore down was the veil that hid the Holiest of Holies from us, and was off limits to ALL unclean people, whether Jew or Gentile.

Also, what proof do you have to say that Peter and Paul stopped observing the Torah? I don't follow you, my friend...

Hi..NaLuvena

I understand what you mean about the curtain.

But really it was the wall, at the temple that is being referenced in Eph 2:14.That was where the court of the Gentiles was walled off.It is was said figuratively .But yes,the cutain is gone too!


The reason Paul did not live Torah,is because he preached no more circumcision,that is Torah.

If you keep circumcision,you gotta keep the whole law.We know that is not the new Covenant.

Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Also Paul said this…

Amplified Bible (AMP)Gal 4:12Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

After he converted the Philippian jailer,he ate with him,in the Romans house,that was against the law.(Same as Peter said in Acts 10 & 11)

What Paul told the Corinthians,was in violation of the Torah.


In 1 Cor 10,Paul said eat all that is in the market,and offered to idols.He said to eat at the home of unbelievers,and eat what ever the “unclean Gentile”,sets before you.He said not to eat it ..ONLY,if they tell you it was sacrificed to an idol,but that was because of conscience,a whole different issue.

Of Peter,we see this…


Amplified .Galatians 4:14 But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

Peter explained more,in Acts.He no longer lived Torah..

Peter,who after the vision of the sheet,ate at the home of Cornelius,another Roman.


Peter knew that the Torah laws separated Jew and Gentile....

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that separated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.



That is why he later ate with them ( Gentiles)…and later,explain this to the other Jewish believers in Acts 11.Later they rejoiced that Gentiles are now saved!

So the vision meant that Gentiles were no longer ceremonially unclean,and also all food is now clean to,food that was ceremonially unclean.


Amp..Mark 7:19
Since it does not reach and enter his heart but [only his] digestive tract, and so passes on [into the place designed to receive waste]? Thus He was making and declaring all foods [ceremonially] clean [that is, abolishing the ceremonial distinctions of the Levitical Law].

There is more,but I didn’t want to clutter the page.Thanks!

 

[pinetree]

the fact I dealt with your post should be the thing to take point with... stay on track with one subject matter before moving to the next... the shoddy technique is subterfuge and misdirection.

for all the people on the forum, show us from the writings of Moses himself where it is written that Jews and Gentiles are to have no dealings in the Torah.

If you are unable to do so then withdraw your claim, or simply acknowledge the fact that maybe you are wrong about this assertion.



Steve

p.s. with all due respect grace was available in the days before Jesus!

Sure,in fact grace was always there,,even before time began..


1 Tim 2:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


But there was something better..


John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through JesusChrist.

 

[cyberlizard]

the fact I dealt with your post should be the thing to take point with... stay on track with one subject matter before moving to the next... the shoddy technique is subterfuge and misdirection.

for all the people on the forum, show us from the writings of Moses himself where it is written that Jews and Gentiles are to have no dealings in the Torah.

If you are unable to do so then withdraw your claim, or simply acknowledge the fact that maybe you are wrong about this assertion.



Steve

p.s. with all due respect grace was available in the days before Jesus!

Sure,in fact grace was always there,,even before time began..


1 Tim 2:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,


But there was something better..


John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through JesusChrist.

your stalling... give us proof from the writings of Moses that the Torah prohibited Jews from contact with non-Jews.



Steve

 

[pinetree]

your stalling... give us proof from the writings of Moses that the Torah prohibited Jews from contact with non-Jews.



Steve

Read post 47.

It was also the same levitical laws for the priesthood that is now gone..That means Torah!


Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

 

[LionDog1]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have completely misunderstood what this means.

"To fulfil" in the 2nd temple period meant to point towards, or correctly apply Torah. "To abolish" meant to steer away or wrongly interpret and apply Torah.

So when Jesus said he had come to fulfil Torah he meant that his application of Torah was the correct one, hence "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Well said!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

In the beginning was Torah and Torah was with God and Torah was God. (John 1:1)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Greek > Logos[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 3056[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] lovgo?[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (3004)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Logos[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4:69,505[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]log'-os [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*] of speech
   
   1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
   2. what someone has said
      1. a word
      2. the sayings of God
      3. decree, mandate or order
      4. of the moral precepts given by God
      5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
      6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
   3. discourse
      1. the act of speaking, speech
      2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
      3. a kind or style of speaking
      4. a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
   4. doctrine, teaching
   5. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
   6. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
   7. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
   
   [*] its use as respect to the MIND alone
   
   1. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
   2. account, i.e. regard, consideration
   3. account, i.e. reckoning, score
   4. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
   5. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
      1. reason would
   6. reason, cause, ground
   
   [*] In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1. [/FONT]

 

[pinetree]

In the beginning was Torah and Torah was with God and Torah was God. (John 1:1)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Greek > Logos[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 3056[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT] lovgo?[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (3004)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Logos[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4:69,505[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]log'-os [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Masculine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
   [*]of speech
   1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
   2. what someone has said
      1. a word
      2. the sayings of God
      3. decree, mandate or order
      4. of the moral precepts given by God
      5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
      6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
   3. discourse
      1. the act of speaking, speech
      2. the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
      3. a kind or style of speaking
      4. a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
   4. doctrine, teaching
   5. anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
   6. matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
   7. the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
   [*]its use as respect to the MIND alone
   1. reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
   2. account, i.e. regard, consideration
   3. account, i.e. reckoning, score
   4. account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
   5. relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
      1. reason would
   6. reason, cause, ground
   [*]In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1. [/FONT]

Why stop at the Torah..?

What about the rest of the OT,and NT?

That is inspired too...

 

[BenAdam]

one word - epicycles

 

[jeolmstead]

For all those out there that strain at gnats about the difference:

If you pay off your car, your debt is fulfilled. Are you going to keep paying on it?

No, I'm going to trade it in and get a government rebate for $4500.00



John O.

 

[NaLuvena]

Hi..NaLuvena

I understand what you mean about the curtain.

But really it was the wall, at the temple that is being referenced in Eph 2:14.That was where the court of the Gentiles was walled off.It is was said figuratively .But yes,the cutain is gone too!


The reason Paul did not live Torah,is because he preached no more circumcision,that is Torah.

If you keep circumcision,you gotta keep the whole law.We know that is not the new Covenant.

Galatians 5:3
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Also Paul said this…

Amplified Bible (AMP)Gal 4:12Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].

After he converted the Philippian jailer,he ate with him,in the Romans house,that was against the law.(Same as Peter said in Acts 10 & 11)

What Paul told the Corinthians,was in violation of the Torah.


In 1 Cor 10,Paul said eat all that is in the market,and offered to idols.He said to eat at the home of unbelievers,and eat what ever the “unclean Gentile”,sets before you.He said not to eat it ..ONLY,if they tell you it was sacrificed to an idol,but that was because of conscience,a whole different issue.

Of Peter,we see this…


Amplified .Galatians 4:14But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

Peter explained more,in Acts.He no longer lived Torah..

Peter,who after the vision of the sheet,ate at the home of Cornelius,another Roman.


Peter knew that the Torah laws separated Jew and Gentile....

Acts 10:28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that separated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life
If you guys dont want to abolish,throw away Ephesians chapter 2..
Because Jew and Gentile cant be one then..


That is why they had to be ABOLISHED.



That is why he later ate with them ( Gentiles)…and later,explain this to the other Jewish believers in Acts 11.Later they rejoiced that Gentiles are now saved!

So the vision meant that Gentiles were no longer ceremonially unclean,and also all food is now clean to,food that was ceremonially unclean.


Amp..Mark 7:19
Since it does not reach and enter his heart but [only his] digestive tract, and so passes on [into the place designed to receive waste]? Thus He was making and declaring all foods [ceremonially] clean [that is, abolishing the ceremonial distinctions of the Levitical Law].

There is more,but I didn’t want to clutter the page.Thanks!

Sorry my friend, but I have to disagree with you on this one, especially the "Paul preached no more circumcision" bit.

Paul preached that salvation is by faith ALONE, and refuted the teachings of "certain Judaizers" who taught that salvation was by faith and circumcision. That was what Galatians was about.

He never said that circumcision was done away with. He only said it has nothing to contribute to one's salvation.

Also, to say that Peter and Paul no longer kept the Law/Torah is not the correct way to represent their view. God taught them to keep the Torah the way He meant it to be kept.

 

[pinetree]

Sorry my friend, but I have to disagree with you on this one, especially the "Paul preached no more circumcision" bit.

Paul preached that salvation is by faith ALONE, and refuted the teachings of "certain Judaizers" who taught that salvation was by faith and circumcision. That was what Galatians was about.

He never said that circumcision was done away with. He only said it has nothing to contribute to one's salvation.

Also, to say that Peter and Paul no longer kept the Law/Torah is not the correct way to represent their view. God taught them to keep the Torah the way He meant it to be kept.

It is not a bit..

Look what happened in Acts,when men from Jerusalem,tried to impose circumcision..on the church in Antioch

First..
Acts 15:1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

In Antioch,it was 0pposed by Paul,and Barnabas..

Acts 15: 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them,

Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Then in Jerusalem,we see they stood up again,to try to force circumcision,and the law of Moses..


Acts 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”


Then Peter stood to oppose it.The circumcision,and the law of Moses,calling it a yoke of that no one could bear.He OPPOSED circumcision.


Acts 15:
7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11


Later,in Acts,even James,a brother from Jerusalem,very Jewish ,said that those who wanted to impose the snipping,were not in agreement with him either.It was in the letter.


Acts 15:24Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions,


Paul refers to the events here,in Galatians.he was glad that the very church council in Jerusalem,did not tell Titus to be circumcised.


Galatians 2;3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.

The same yoke of slavery,was later spoken of by Paul in Galatians..
He did not yield to them,he obviously opposed the circumcision..calling them false brothers too.Who wee see in Galatians 1,a false gospel.



Galatians :4-5 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Later in Galatians,he said this..

Galatians 5:1For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

If he preached circumcisionon,he would not have been persecuted.

Galatians 5:11But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.
He even had some sharp words to those who did try to impose it..huh?

Gal5”12 I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!

Then in 6,we see again,his reaction to those who were seeking to force the law on the Galatian saints..he said force..


12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.



That is why in a nutshell,we see that he did not live Torah,as per my other post,and he did preach ,no more circumcision.Nor did Peter.They cant live Torah,then preach against the very laws of the Torah.

Paul knew,that if you get snipped,your obligated to keep the whole law..


Gal5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.


And that would put believers under a curse,because no one can keep the law..




Galatians 3:10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Thanks.

 

[cyberlizard]

your stalling... give us proof from the writings of Moses that the Torah prohibited Jews from contact with non-Jews.



Steve

Read post 47.

It was also the same levitical laws for the priesthood that is now gone..That means Torah!


Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

I read post 47 and guess what... it does not answer the question.... one of us needs to go back to the greek rather than the english translation you're using...

peter comments it is against custom (NOT unlawful) for a Jew to eat with a gentile....

now if you cannot prove your case from the Torah that the Torah itself forbids contact between Jew and non-Jew (see my previous quotes from the Torah to substantiate my case), I would suggest you stop embarrassing yourself and withdraw your unprovable claim.



Steve

p.s. unless you can find passages in the Torah to substantiate it that is!

 

[pinetree]

I read post 47 and guess what... it does not answer the question.... one of us needs to go back to the greek rather than the english translation you're using...

peter comments it is against custom (NOT unlawful) for a Jew to eat with a gentile....

now if you cannot prove your case from the Torah that the Torah itself forbids contact between Jew and non-Jew (see my previous quotes from the Torah to substantiate my case), I would suggest you stop embarrassing yourself and withdraw your unprovable claim.



Steve

p.s. unless you can find passages in the Torah to substantiate it that is!

ummm.speaking of embarressing
YOU..need to read the greek..
Here it is AGAIN..
Levitical laws are in the TORAH...

PETER SAID ACCORDING TO THE LEVITICAL LAWS,GENTILES WERE UNCLEAN.I POSTED THE VERSES,WITH THE GREEK DEFINITION.SEE THE WORDS IN RED.LEVITICAL...


Acts 10:28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should notcall any person common orunclean.

That was Jewish ceremonial laws,that seperated the two,Jew and Gentile.

Greek for unclean in that verse.Acts 10:28

akathartos 169
Definition:1) not cleansed, unclean
1a) in a ceremonial sense: that which must be abstained from
according to the levitical law
1b) in a moral sense: unclean in thought and life

 

[BenAdam]

Orwell would be proud.